XRGB-mini Framemeister

[franjipane]

I'll have to buy a 75 ohm resistor.

I wired it to 7 on the megadrive side instead of 3, now I get no picture but the cable is passing audio through (that comes from the headphone out on the MD).

[Fudoh]

the resistor is optional, but the capacitor has to be put in the sync line, otherwise you don't get a picture at all.

[franjipane]

ok cool, what cap should I use?

[Fudoh]

100-220uF are fine. + to the MD source, - to the display.

[franjipane]

Great, will order now.

[kerframil]

There's a significant change in the 1.05 firmware which doesn't appear to be mentioned elsewhere. As Fudoh noted in his review of the Mini, one of the differences between the Mini and the XRGB-3 is that the XRGB-3 can "provide a genuine 480i CRT-look with a hint of scanlines". The Mini - on the other hand - produces 240p style scanlines, even with a 480p input.

Apparently, this has been changed in 1.05. I have both a Wii and a Gamecube running at 480p over component and the Meister mode now displays scanlines exactly as described above. This is a actually a kick in the teeth to anyone running 240p games on such a system. I tried some 240p Virtual Console games - including Gate of Thunder and the arcade version of Shinobi - and they all look horrible now. The same goes for some of the (excellent) emulators that are available for these platforms, almost all of which are capable of outputting 480p. Notwithstanding the odd vs even scanline issue that occurred in some cases, the results were generally superb with 1.04 but not any more.

Granted, the 480i 'CRT-look' scanlines look decent for games of the appropriate resolution such as the N64 Virtual Console titles. But these also look quite acceptable without scanlines; I can't imagine anyone buying a Mini for the sole intent of handling true 480p resolution games because its upscaling is lacklustre for this purpose. I'm dismayed at this change, particularly as there doesn't seem to be any way to revert back to the previous mode. At least, not that I've found thus far. If it turns out that there is no way to exercise control over this behaviour, the implication is that 240p scanlines can only be achieved with a genuine 240p (or 480i) input. This would be a huge step backwards for Wii users, PS3 users running PS1 titles and so forth.

For whatever reason, 480i input is not affected. I tried ESPGaluda on my PS2 and, thankfully, nothing has changed. Also, I tried forcing one of the emulators on my Wii to output 480i and - lo and behold - the 240p-style scanlines were restored. Only, now I have to endure the on-screen flicker and potentially increased lag from the de-interlacing process. The scanline rendering is still lousy at 1080p too

Does anyone know whether it's possible to forcibly downgrade the firmware on the Mini? I desperately want to back to 1.04.

[Fudoh]

I don't think that I fully understand what they tried to accomplish with this update.

Basically you get scanlines "A" which are for 240p and 480i sources and you get scanlines "B" which are for 480p sources. Adjusting the "A" scanlines' density works fine, but what's the point in the seperate odd/even density for the "B" ones ? For 480p scanlines I can now switch the offset (change odd vs. even) by exchanging the density settings, e.g. from 75/127 to 127/75, but wouldn't have a simple odd/even switch been much easier ?

We need the B version for 480i sources as well.

Enabling scanlines on all processing modes is fine as well. Game 1 is now the same as Meister mode. Game 2 and some of the other modes have a lower LPF setting which gets out more details in dithering patterns. Just watch out. Picture mode changes the deinterlacing to 2:2, so it's to be used careful with 480i sources.

And the chroma bug with YCbCr output seems to be fixed - yeah

[Fudoh]

@kerframil:

no, I can't confirm this. Just tried extensively with 240, 480i and 480p. You just have to adjust the Scanline B density settings to mimic the A ones. Make 100% sure to have one value at 127 always, e.g. 75 / 127 or 127 / 75. Properly set it should be same as before. *

(* 127 = no scanlines )

And yes, you can downgrade, it's really not neccessary.

[kerframil]

@kerframil:

no, I can't confirm this. Just tried extensively with 240, 480i and 480p. You just have to adjust the Scanline B density settings to mimic the A ones. Make 100% sure to have one value at 127 always, e.g. 75 / 127 or 127 / 75. Properly set it should be same as before. *

(* 127 = no scanlines )

Man, thanks a lot! That suffices as a workaround. Also, your explanation in the preceding post makes perfect sense and I couldn't agree more. It would be far more convenient to implement it as a toggle.

And yes, you can downgrade, it's really not neccessary.

I can live with it now but, just out of curiosity, how does one force the device to flash where the card contains an older firmware revision?

[Fudoh]

It does automatically no matter if the version on the SD card is newer or older.

[kerframil]

It does automatically no matter if the version on the SD card is newer or older.

Very good. Thanks again.

[kerframil]

On a different note, I'd like to mention something that might be useful to other Mini newbies reading this thread. It is well established that 720p is currently the best HDMI output mode for attaining aesthetically pleasing scanlines. Consequently, the scaling performed by the display is also important. With the Sony KDL-EX703 - and no doubt with various other Sony models - it is necessary to disable Auto Display Area and set Display Area to +1 otherwise various visual artifacts will occur (some of which are much worse than the others depending on the game). This setting can be accessed via the crossbar by pressing Home > Display > Screen.

A setting of +1 seems counter-intuitive but it's definitely the right one. I plugged in a PC to the same TV running at 1920x1080. I then created a background image of the same resolution, containing a centered rectangle with a height of 960 pixels (an optimal multiple of 240 and 480). I then tested a 480p input signal and noted that it covered the exact same vertical area but only with the +1 setting. With the default setting, the scaling is non-linear and the full height of the panel is used. It transpires that this is also relevant when feeding it a 720p signal from the Mini.

[Thjodbjorn]

If I turn "deep color" on, there is a "crackle" both visually and aurally, if that makes any sense. Using a PS2 via component to D.

I do like that I can select even or odd scanlines, and the density, but yeah, it would be nice if there was a toggle even/odd separate from those sliders...

[Thjodbjorn]

Right now I'm running the Vampire compilation for PS2. If I run the game in 480p and have the mini set to 1080p, with screen "smart x2" the scanlines appear to be on A instead of B. and they appear to darken every other line, rather than the normal one every three.

[Konsolkongen]

I'm not sure I understand. Scanlines are supposed to darken every even or odd lines.

[Thjodbjorn]

I'm sorry, I have difficulty writing clearly.

Normally in 1080p, I've not seen scanlines do anything but one for every three or so, rather than one on, one off, or two on and two off. Does that make more sense? That is, normally 1080p has anything BUT incorrect scanlines.

And if I have a 480p signal coming in, I can set it to "smart x2", and rather than the funky 1080p scanlines, it darkens every other line.

[RGB32E]

Updated to v1.05. I'm actually liking the default scanlines at 1080p!!!





I'm not sure I follow what what you guys are complaining about!

[kerframil]

Updated to v1.05. I'm actually liking the default scanlines at 1080p!!!

...

I'm not sure I follow what what you guys are complaining about!

Hmm, any scanline emulation in your screenshots is hardly perceivable. Here are my shots of the same game in Meister mode with the default settings ...

Super Castlevania IV (1080p) (TV configured for 'full pixel' mode to ensure 1:1 scaling)
Super Castlevania IV (720p)

Observe the implausibly thin scanlines from the 1080p shot, and the fact that they suffer from uneven spacing. They are neither pixel-perfect nor authentic. Essentially, they're useless. That's what we are complaining about! By contrast, the scanlines look good in 720p mode - even though the TV is having to upscale to the native 1920x1080 resolution.

Although the Mini can do the right thing in quadrupling the vertical resolution to 960 in 1080p mode - achieving perfect linear scaling - it only darkens one line in every four for its scanline emulation. Micomsoft should change it so that it darkens two lines in every four (just as one expects it to darken every other line in 480p output mode). That would emulate the effect of scanlines produced by a 15kHz signal on a CRT display just as accurately. All the more so because the display itself needn't perform any (lossy) upscaling. As far as I can tell, there's still no way of making this happen as of the latest firmware release.

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it looks like it's doing something even stranger in 1080p mode. Something more like: 1 darkened lined followed by 4 lines, then 1 darkened line followed by 3. I can't tell exactly how many because I don't have the necessary equipment but it's clearly alternating because the spacing is uneven. It's very easy to observe in the border area if I crank up the brightness because then the black isn't quite black anymore.

[Fudoh]

And if I have a 480p signal coming in, I can set it to "smart x2", and rather than the funky 1080p scanlines, it darkens every other line.

has been this way since the first release.

[RGB32E]

Updated to v1.05. I'm actually liking the default scanlines at 1080p!!!

...

I'm not sure I follow what what you guys are complaining about!

Hmm, any scanline emulation in your screenshots is hardly perceivable. Here are my shots of the same game in Meister mode with the default settings ...

Super Castlevania IV (1080p) (TV configured for 'full pixel' mode to ensure 1:1 scaling)
Super Castlevania IV (720p)

Observe the implausibly thin scanlines from the 1080p shot, and the fact that they suffer from uneven spacing. They are neither pixel-perfect nor authentic. Essentially, they're useless. That's what we are complaining about! By contrast, the scanlines look good in 720p mode - even though the TV is having to upscale to the native 1920x1080 resolution.

Although the Mini can do the right thing in quadrupling the vertical resolution to 960 in 1080p mode - achieving perfect linear scaling - it only darkens one line in every four for its scanline emulation. Micomsoft should change it so that it darkens two lines in every four (just as one expects it to darken every other line in 480p output mode). That would emulate the effect of scanlines produced by a 15kHz signal on a CRT display just as accurately. All the more so because the display itself needn't perform any (lossy) upscaling. As far as I can tell, there's still no way of making this happen as of the latest firmware release.

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it looks like it's doing something even stranger in 1080p mode. Something more like: 1 darkened lined followed by 4 lines, then 1 darkened line followed by 3. I can't tell exactly how many because I don't have the necessary equipment but it's clearly alternating because the spacing is uneven. It's very easy to observe in the border area if I crank up the brightness because then the black isn't quite black anymore.

Yes, every other "scan line" (the space in between) alternates in intensity... but it actually looks great IMHO from a distance and is subtle compared to FW v1.03. I'm not using the Meister Mode in this picture.

TV:
Set to Full Pixel (given)

mini...
Natural Picture Mode
VLine オン
Standard2 Mode Scaling

I'll consider the purist "authentic" scanlines once I get a 4k HDTV and Micomsoft releases a scaler powerful enough for a 4k display! Besides, as mentioned previously, the artifact of CRT scanlines is just that... an artifact.

In your 1080p picture, it doesn't look like scanlines are being applied correctly (scanlines on some rows are splitting the 240p lines).

[Thjodbjorn]

And if I have a 480p signal coming in, I can set it to "smart x2", and rather than the funky 1080p scanlines, it darkens every other line.

has been this way since the first release.

Good gravy. Well, I suppose I'm not surprised I didn't realize that.

[Fudoh]

Meister mode and Natural + V-Line option are the same in terms of scanlines.

The Mini uses the A Scanlines when in Smartx2 mode, while it uses the B Scanlines when in Normal2 or Standard mode, so RGB32E's screenshot should be in Smartx2 mode. kerframil's screenshot is in Normal2 or Standard mode.

What Micomsoft did to fix the uneven scaling (in Normal2/Standard mode) was to change the thickness of every second line. While the even scanlines are still needle stripes, the odd ones have been doubled in thickness (or vice versa). This kinda fixes the uneven spacing, but looks even weirder now

I could accept that fullscreen 1080p is a problem (but it shouldn't be), but I want those thicker odd B Scanlines in Smartx2 mode - then it's fine.

Besides, as mentioned previously, the artifact of CRT scanlines is just that... an artifact

but on a classic CRT with moderate white level setting (so no *excessive* blooming is present) the "scanlines" are nearly as thick as the visible lines and only appear a bit thinner/lighter because of natural blooming of the visible lines.

Why the scanlines cut the pixels in kerframil's screenshot - I have no idea. Doesn't happen over here.

[Konsolkongen]

Got a new PPU for my NES today



I'm using the THS amp and it looks great. Whatever jailbars there is, is completely eliminated when using scanlines. It just looks great.

However I am experiencing heavy dropouts. I don't have anything connected to the sync line so that's probably why. I can get a somewhat stable picture by using my MegaDrive's RGB cable because that input on my RGBHV matrix is being sync processed (I think... doesn't work with my Neo Geo CD's cable (I use the same pinout on all these consoles)). Works alright for a time in most games but then it gets worse, presumably because the PPU is getting hotter? Little Nemo the Dream Master looses sync more than any other game though.

What should I put on my sync line to correct this?

EDIT: I sometimes get only a brown or yellow screen when I turn on the system. At first I thought the PPU had died, but it seems like it's just cartridge connector-problems

[Konsolkongen]

Looks like it works nicely if I run the sync signal through a NJM like RGB32E originally suggested me in a PM. So its the best of both worlds now. Moosmann's THS amp for color and RGB32E's NJM for sync

Here are some pictures:
http://www.playright.dk/forum/emne/2612 ... 027#557027

[RGB32E]

That's cool! I'm still using the 2 NJM amp in my RGB-NES and haven't experienced dropouts. I've been tempted to build a second RGB-NES (been sitting on a second PPU for a while) and will likely go with a THS for that one. I haven't had any issues with dropouts using 2 NJMs with the XRGB-3 or mini though. Also, I'll be testing out the Don Lancaster 4049 sync buffer tomorrow! So, you might be able to just replace the NJM with a 4049 circuit for full TTL/CMOS level CSYNC.

0.3Vp-p Csync // CVideo level sync (NJM?)
5.0Vp-p Csync // Full TTL/CMOS level (4049)

[grahf]

I'm really liking firmware 1.5 so far. The scanlines are actually tolerable now.

[Seraphic]

Has anyone else had a hard time getting their Mini to lock on to input source and/or outputting any video at all after updating to firmware 1.05?
I did same thing for 1.04 update. Unplug power, insert memory card, wait until flashing was done and it went to standby, remove MC then turn on.
However, this time seems something is odd and I can not seem to get any video output from Mini at all. Only get Power LED and Output Link LED when unit is on...

[Fudoh]

try holding the "force 480p" button on the remote for a few seconds. I up- and downgraded 5 times the day before yesterday. No problems whatsoever.

[Seraphic]

try holding the "force 480p" button on the remote for a few seconds. I up- and downgraded 5 times the day before yesterday. No problems whatsoever.

Doesn't seem to be helping at all and not sure what else to try...

[Zapf]

is is the XRGBmini folder that goes into the base directory of the mini sd card? I can't find the old 1.04 instructions anymore =S