7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[The Coop]

Alright, I'll define this, without getting too technical:

The forum is running an experiment and for arguments sake, they have this Black Box. Think of this as a device that answers simple questions: "Is this game eligible?"... and returns an answer Yes/ No/ Don't know...

I have a similar Black Box, that I'm using, as a scientific control; but it returns different answers for the same questions...

A technical discussion is required to explain these conflicting answers... Does this help?

I'm just not seeing the conflict. From where I'm standing, the fundamental difference between Gauntlet's and Stargate's "unlocking" aspects is very simple. One requires you to unlock doors so that you can get to the next level, while the other is a bonus aspect that's purely optional to reach tougher levels faster (while getting some bonus points). It's like the hidden level in R-Type for the Master System, in that it's a "secret" that's there if you want to access it, but it's not required to do so to play through the game.

This difference is what separates the two games, and keeps one from being the other to me.

[j^aws]

Alright, I'll define this, without getting too technical:

The forum is running an experiment and for arguments sake, they have this Black Box. Think of this as a device that answers simple questions: "Is this game eligible?"... and returns an answer Yes/ No/ Don't know...

I have a similar Black Box, that I'm using, as a scientific control; but it returns different answers for the same questions...

A technical discussion is required to explain these conflicting answers... Does this help?

I'm just not seeing the conflict. From where I'm standing, the fundamental difference between Gauntlet's and Stargate's "unlocking" aspects is very simple. One requires you to unlock doors so that you can get to the next level, while the other is a bonus aspect that's purely optional to reach tougher levels faster (while getting some bonus points). It's like the hidden level in R-Type for the Master System, in that it's a "secret" that's there if you want to access it, but it's not required to do so to play through the game.

This difference is what separates the two games, and keeps one from being the other to me.

That's fine, but you're only seeing the "Black Boxes". The owners of these boxes also have the White Boxes. And these can predict the future!

[The Coop]

Alright, I'll define this, without getting too technical:

The forum is running an experiment and for arguments sake, they have this Black Box. Think of this as a device that answers simple questions: "Is this game eligible?"... and returns an answer Yes/ No/ Don't know...

I have a similar Black Box, that I'm using, as a scientific control; but it returns different answers for the same questions...

A technical discussion is required to explain these conflicting answers... Does this help?

I'm just not seeing the conflict. From where I'm standing, the fundamental difference between Gauntlet's and Stargate's "unlocking" aspects is very simple. One requires you to unlock doors so that you can get to the next level, while the other is a bonus aspect that's purely optional to reach tougher levels faster (while getting some bonus points). It's like the hidden level in R-Type for the Master System, in that it's a "secret" that's there if you want to access it, but it's not required to do so to play through the game.

This difference is what separates the two games, and keeps one from being the other to me.

That's fine, but you're only seeing the "Black Boxes". The owners of these boxes also have the White Boxes. And these can predict the future!

...

I think it's time to explain just what it is you're doing with this project of yours. It's hard to have a discussion about something when you keep going on in a vague and/or secretive fashion. Revealing more info out of the blue as a means to contest what was said, when someone tries to give you an answer, isn't the way to got about it.

[Mortificator]

I don't get it. What's in this box?

An enormous stick, and j^aws' anus.

It's a technical point based in mathematics.

[j^aws]

^^ This was a civil discussion.

...

I think it's time to explain just what it is you're doing with this project of yours. It's hard to have a discussion about something when you keep going on in a vague and/or secretive fashion. Revealing more info out of the blue as a means to contest what was said, when someone tries to give you an answer, isn't the way to got about it.

I've already explained. What do you want to know?

[doctorx0079]

^^ This was a civil discussion.

...

I think it's time to explain just what it is you're doing with this project of yours. It's hard to have a discussion about something when you keep going on in a vague and/or secretive fashion. Revealing more info out of the blue as a means to contest what was said, when someone tries to give you an answer, isn't the way to got about it.

I've already explained. What do you want to know?

Weren't you originally comparing Gauntlet and Stargate? Weren't you questioning why Stargate is in and Gauntlet is out? It seems like you're just spamming now.

[j^aws]

(...)

Weren't you originally comparing Gauntlet and Stargate? Weren't you questioning why Stargate is in and Gauntlet is out? It seems like you're just spamming now.

I showed a simple conflict with the currently defined Action-adventure group. And explained this conflict. How is that spamming?

If you have any specific questions, then ask?

[The Coop]

^^ This was a civil discussion.

...

I think it's time to explain just what it is you're doing with this project of yours. It's hard to have a discussion about something when you keep going on in a vague and/or secretive fashion. Revealing more info out of the blue as a means to contest what was said, when someone tries to give you an answer, isn't the way to got about it.

I've already explained. What do you want to know?

I think a better question is, what exactly is it that you want to know? You brought up the "unlocking" trait, and then (basically) asked why Gauntlet isn't allowed in, while Stargate is. I explained how the two games don't use that trait in a similar fashion, and that's why one game feels like it belongs in a different genre (to me). Then you talk about future predicting white boxes and their owners.

So again, what else is it that you want to know? If I didn't answer the question(s) that you had in mind, then what is the question(s)?

[professor ganson]

LOL, how many years will j^aws persist in this discussion? Funny, but also creepy.

[Rob]

I think he's saying (if what I didn't read, everything, is enough) Stargate shouldn't be eligible. It is a flight simulator after all.

[j^aws]

(...)

I think a better question is, what exactly is it that you want to know? You brought up the "unlocking" trait, and then (basically) asked why Gauntlet isn't allowed in, while Stargate is. I explained how the two games don't use that trait in a similar fashion, and that's why one game feels like it belongs in a different genre (to me). Then you talk about future predicting white boxes and their owners.

Your explanations are fine.

What I want to know, I've already asked the organisers... defining the "Action-adventure" group. I think its definition is slightly flawed... and this is confirmed by both the Black Boxes giving different results...

I mention future predictions, because there's talk of expanding the sub-genres; I'm not happy about this until these inconsistecies are resolved through discussion and change control...

[The Coop]

(...)

I think a better question is, what exactly is it that you want to know? You brought up the "unlocking" trait, and then (basically) asked why Gauntlet isn't allowed in, while Stargate is. I explained how the two games don't use that trait in a similar fashion, and that's why one game feels like it belongs in a different genre (to me). Then you talk about future predicting white boxes and their owners.

Your explanations are fine.

What I want to know, I've already asked the organisers... defining the "Action-adventure" group. I think its definition is slightly flawed... and this is confirmed by both the Black Boxes giving different results...

I mention future predictions, because there's talk of expanding the sub-genres; I'm not happy about this until these inconsistecies are resolved through discussion and change control...

I think the thing to keep in mind, is that once you start moving away from the "core" group of shmups (the ones no one in their right mind would argue against), formulaic checklists start becoming faulty. The games you start looking at need to be scrutinized on a more individual basis and in greater detail, and not brushed over once with a generalized comment (or algorithm). It allows for greater flexibility, and it's what gives us the discussions/arguments that we all know and love.

[Herr Schatten]

LOL, how many years will j^aws persist in this discussion? Funny, but also creepy.

I was about to say this. He's really creeping me out.

[Ed Oscuro]

This is the year Stargate takes my top spot.

WHO'S WITH ME?!

...oh wait, it's stargate.

[j^aws]

(...)

...I do not believe that there is one single language or method for helping voters to know what is and what isn't eligible. It appears that you believe differently or, at the least, that you believe your method is superior. I cannot expect an argument of these positions to progress into more than a circle. If you would like to point out categories or games that I have forgotten, you may do so. If the purpose of your argument is to issue a veiled complaint that I have elected to employ my own system instead of yours, I can't say that I expect to be swayed.

(...)

I'm asking you personally: How would one show one method/ argument is superior than another in any unbiased way?

[RGC]

Arguments are measured by validity; leave superiority to the sophists innit.

So, about Galuda Arrange...

[neist]

Arguments are measured by validity; leave superiority to the sophists innit.

So, about Galuda Arrange...

Yeah, I've came to the conclusion that my Sub-Terrania question was completely overlooked as well.

After more thought, I'm actually thinking against it, but then again, I'm curious to other's opinions.

[Fenrir]

Hmm. I can see a pattern forming now...

[neist]

Hmm. I can see a pattern forming now...

Pattern?

If it has something to with myself then it's completely unintentional.

[doctorx0079]

(...)

Weren't you originally comparing Gauntlet and Stargate? Weren't you questioning why Stargate is in and Gauntlet is out? It seems like you're just spamming now.

I showed a simple conflict with the currently defined Action-adventure group. And explained this conflict. How is that spamming?

If you have any specific questions, then ask?

It was after you showed the alleged conflict that you started spamming.

[j^aws]

(...)

So, about Galuda Arrange...

AFAIK, you can still specify what "Mode" and whatnot in your voting list (if you strongly feel you need to make this distinction), but this Mode will still be counted with the Arcade version. I'm sure the organisers will clarify if this position is false in any way...

(...)

After more thought, I'm actually thinking against it, but then again, I'm curious to other's opinions.

I haven't played the game myself, but how about explaining why you are having trouble deciding first?

(...)

It was after you showed the alleged conflict that you started spamming.

Well, I asked you "how" is that "spamming"; you've just told me I was spamming between a certain range of posts...

I don't know your definition of "spamming", but it most certainly doesn't agree with mine... I've posted everything for a reason, and your last two posts have just been accusing me of "spamming"... Perhaps you're using the wrong choice of words, e.g. obfuscating could be a better choice? In the sense that I'm not disclossing everything right now, then yes, that would be true. If you need anything that hasn't already been explained, then just ask; I'm more than happy to clarify...

[doctorx0079]

Alright, I'll define this, without getting too technical:

The forum is running an experiment and for arguments sake, they have this Black Box. Think of this as a device that answers simple questions: "Is this game eligible?"... and returns an answer Yes/ No/ Don't know...

I have a similar Black Box, that I'm using, as a scientific control; but it returns different answers for the same questions...

A technical discussion is required to explain these conflicting answers... Does this help?

That's fine, but you're only seeing the "Black Boxes". The owners of these boxes also have the White Boxes. And these can predict the future!

Saying this sort of thing doesn't help, it just confuses people. It seems like you are arbitrarily making stuff up to annoy people and obfuscate what you originally said. That why it seems like spamming. Okay, maybe you weren't spamming on purpose.

[kengou]

Gauntlet is in no way a shmup.

Shmups have a focus on shooting and dodging. Gauntlet has a focus on hack-n-slash and exploration. That's like calling Zelda a shmup.

Why is this even a discussion? It should be clear when a game is action-adventure and when it's a shmup. I really think this sort of thing should just be left to a case-by-case basis. Have discussions for single games that are contested, but don't open up half the action-adventure genre for voting and call them shmups just because one or two games overlap the two genres. There's always going to be genre overlap.

[clp]

so galuda and galuda arrange are counted as the same because there on the same disc? there 2 different games , the same is true with ibara and ibara arrange .

[unsane]

With the relaxed voting requirements this year i actually qualify to be able to vote. However, from among those i've played i can't come up with 25 i consider worthy. Am i too picky or what? I guess i'll just work on playing the other half of the 82...


Edit: i suppose what i could do is give 10 unexciting games a 1. That doesn't seem to fit the spirit of the Top 25 tho.

[neist]

With the relaxed voting requirements this year i actually qualify to be able to vote. However, from among those i've played i can't come up with 25 i consider worthy. Am i too picky or what? I guess i'll just work on playing the other half of the 82...


Edit: i suppose what i could do is give 10 unexciting games a 1. That doesn't seem to fit the spirit of the Top 25 tho.

Nothing wrong with weighting it so.

Maybe someone loves 3 games to death but thinks everything else is mediocre. The current system allows for this. In my mind a "1" game is probably only partially worth mentioning anyway. Even unweighted, you have to consider 25 other games better than that one.

(...)

After more thought, I'm actually thinking against it, but then again, I'm curious to other's opinions.

I haven't played the game myself, but how about explaining why you are having trouble deciding first?

Well... it's Thrust? I know its a horrible explanation, but it's very much a 16-bit Thrust. If you aren't aware of Thrust, it's kind of like Asteroids meets Bangai-O. You pilot a ship in a side-view two-dimensional plane, but theres gravity--like Bangai-O--and inertia--like Asteroids. Each level is a specific giant square, not unlike Bangai-O. After completing one level, you procede to the next.

The objective of each level may involve you killing certain enemies to solving a certain environmental puzzle concerning the enemies.

But all this aside, it's so much of a Thrust clone that more of a question is would Thrust qualify to be voted on.

[Rob]

so galuda and galuda arrange are counted as the same because there on the same disc? there 2 different games

No, they aren't.

[Shatterhand]

are Zanac NES and Zanac EX counted as the same game? I think they should.

[Herr Schatten]

are Zanac NES and Zanac EX counted as the same game? I think they should.

I think so, too. I'd count the original MSX Zanac seperately, though.

[Shatterhand]

yeah, I agree with that.