Ikaruga is not consistently challenging as a regular shooter. It goes from an obvious non-firing enemy chaining section to a mildly challenging overlapping spread and back.
And the post that made me reply... so explain why i can't get past stage 2?
gennss wrote:And the post that made me reply... so explain why i can't get past stage 2?
You were lulled into a false sense of security by the shuffling, non-shooting crates and forgot to switch colors when a bullet appeared or you got crushed by the boss's shin guards. I can't think of another way to die on this stage.
I find Ikaruga very hard as well, and I've sunk a lot of hours into it in the hope of getting better. Frankly, and this should be obvious, everyone has an aptitude for different things, and I've realised I will never be good at this kind of 'classical' memoriser stg. I also suck at R-Type, Radiant Silvergun, Gradius etc. In fact, the only game I've ever been good at is Umihara Kawase
Have you tried just ignoring playing for score? For instance, you don't have to change your color every so often. White bullets are more visible, so you can stay black at most times and just ignore all the black bullets while dodging white. Not having to chain will also improve your rate of survival, due to having a better focus on dodging.
I've only played a handful of credits of Ikaruga, but I can reach stage 3 every time I want to.
Matskat wrote:This neighborhood USED to be nice...until that family of emulators moved in across the street....
moozooh wrote:Have you tried just ignoring playing for score? For instance, you don't have to change your color every so often. White bullets are more visible, so you can stay black at most times and just ignore all the black bullets while dodging white. Not having to chain will also improve your rate of survival, due to having a better focus on dodging.
I've only played a handful of credits of Ikaruga, but I can reach stage 3 every time I want to.
Yeah, I stop playing for score after st 2. I can get to st 4 fairly consistantly. If I practiced a few credits a day, then I'm sure eventually I would nail it, but frankly, even though I love the art style, music and dramatic nature of Ikaruga, this kind of game really isn't my cup of tea.
The only way to get better in Ikaruga is to put lots of credits to it, ignoring scoring first. Did so for 40+hours, then focused on scoring for another 40 hours, and I can manage pretty well now. 4-2 is still a pain in the butt, but overall, I can enjoy random games of the thing without having to think much. Definitely quality stuff, but to be honest, not super "fun" to play... as opposed to say, Mushi.
About shumps being stale, this whole thing reminds me of a review of Senko No Ronde I saw on Youtube... The guy basically saying that shmups died a while back. Clearly, these guys don't know anything. Of course the guy went on saying G.rev were responsible for Ikaruga, which kinds of confirms my point. Anyways.
Muchos años después, frente al pelotón de fusilamiento...
w00ts wrote:
Well my post was specifically to devs who are making games or have plans on making games for xbox live.
I must've missed something. I haven't seen that many XBox devs here @ this forum...maybe a few homebrew guys for DC and the like...so you're probably posting in the wrong place.
And for the record, shmups are not dead! Shmups are life!
Last edited by ROBOTRON on Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Udderdude wrote:Showing up and telling everyone they are killing the shmup genre by not innovating it is pretty lame. Most people on this forum just play shmups. If you want to impress anyone here, post your amazing, innovative, revolutionary ideas. I'm sure I'd be glad to see them ..
Also, try to make a game with a proof that it works, we'll see @ topic creator
KindGrind wrote:The only way to get better in Ikaruga is to put lots of credits to it, ignoring scoring first. Did so for 40+hours, then focused on scoring for another 40 hours, and I can manage pretty well now. 4-2 is still a pain in the butt, but overall, I can enjoy random games of the thing without having to think much. Definitely quality stuff, but to be honest, not super "fun" to play... as opposed to say, Mushi.
About shumps being stale, this whole thing reminds me of a review of Senko No Ronde I saw on Youtube... The guy basically saying that shmups died a while back. Clearly, these guys don't know anything. Of course the guy went on saying G.rev were responsible for Ikaruga, which kinds of confirms my point. Anyways.
That wasn't even a video by some guy on Youtube. It was the fucking Gametrailers.com review. Can't even get Treasure and G.Rev straight... it's like saying id software did Half-Life. They just made it easier for everyone to see their ignorance.
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
Recognized troll as soon as he started obsessing over ikaruga for weird reasons.
I suck at that game and I have seen my pretty good at it friend play a lot and honestly ain't my cup 'o tea either, but it's a good game nonetheless. Babbling away like that was a dead giveaway.
Or let it sink down with time and let it decompose in the forgotten depths of the forum...
Wait... what?
Necrobump eh?
I must say, when it comes to doing something different with the genre, the first two games that pop up in my head are Genetos and Clean Asia. It's accessible and has some twists involved that are more than a gimmick. Who else likes the idea of throwing enemy wreckage at more enemies like Magneto?
I think the OP is quite silly. It's quite obvious that scrolling shooters have become very niche, but to list Ikaruga as the reason is strange, as it's one of the most critically celebrated shooters in years.
Some reasons that I think scrolling shooters have lost appeal for the average videogame consumer:
- Bullet hell games are fun because small hitboxes make you feel awesome even if you're terrible. Unfortunately, it makes them look ultra scary or mindboggling to the average gamer.
- They're short. Gamers are used to beating a game and moving on to the next big thing. Therefore, a short game has "no value."
- Today's gamer want a story and drama.
- Gamers want to compete against other people. They want to "own" somebody. Playing a scrolling shooter is typically competition against the self. Gamers understand "playing for score" in an online FPS because they are actively destroying a human enemy.
- Furthermore, the gamers only get into those multiplayer FPS games because they have a story mode. They are coaxed into learning the game mechanics and joy of playing because they were anticipating the next plot point.
- Many gamers hate 2D. I have no idea why this is. 2D spritework is beautiful, but for a lot of gamers, realism is key and 2D is simple, primitive, and unrealistic.
- Many scrolling shooter fans are asshats about "casual" gamers.
I don't know how to remedy these, but here's a few ideas. Feel free to pick them apart however you wish, it's in the topic's best interest that you do so.
- Provide incentives to keep playing. Remember Mars Matrix? Of course you do. Mars Matrix is amazing. You know what was awesome about it, aside from the awesome scoring system? The DC version's shop. The shop keeps you playing. The shop tells you "congrats, you are now better than before," even if your skills haven't actually increased. This is why COD is such a phenomenon. By simply playing, you unlock things. You know what else was absolutely BRILLIANT about the shop? Points are the currency you use to buy upgrades. Bam, you've just created scoring incentive for people who didn't care before.
- Easy game modes that don't label themselves "child mode." How about you make normal mode piss easy, and then have 6 modes that are harder? That way new players feel good about themselves, and veterans can crank it.
- Include a story mode with a non-throwaway story. Have some drama between the characters and bosses. Better yet, create a separate story mode. Make it a couple of hours long. Put a world map in there, have places to go in between missions. The levels don't have to be finely honed for scoring and balance; if the mechanics are good, that'll work itself out. Just make it something fun that'll get people into your game.
- Make a second mode, called simply "Online" that's a classic arcade experience. Hone the shit out of that. Put it first in the game's menu, so gamers will wonder why that's the main draw, not the story mode. Make competition a huge deal by having worldwide and friends list leaderboards. Make the person in first look sweet by having a huge flashy font while those beneath him have really lame, bitch font. Whoever just got beaten will send their friend a whiny message and stay up for weeks trying to beat that score.
- Maybe work on a handheld system or put it on XBLA. People are probably more willing to play a short game on the go, or if it's a budget priced download. If your game is portable and has long levels, let people save anywhere. Do not make your XBLA/PSN game >$10 unless you have massive balls. It's not even that I'm too cheap to buy a $15 download game, I just don't wanna use my $20 point card on one game when I could get two.
- Try including a gametype with no end. People love Geometry Wars, because theoretically they could just keep going because THIS TIME I am actually some arcade monster ah fuck nevermind I just ran into the gates, fuck pacifism mode I hate it I'm playing it again.
- Make time spent in menus as minimal as possible. You know why people play Geo Wars for hours? Because they died and hammered buttons and viola they were back in a game.
- Give them 3D graphics FUCK NO DON'T DO THIS TO MY SPRITES
- Try making another Twinkle Star Sprites. This time make it into something the average gamer wouldn't be horribly embarrassed to play. TSS is awesome, but it's not as good as it could be anyways. Even so, every time I tell people the premise of TSS, they think it's brilliant. They also love it once they play it For the record, I hugely dislike Senko No Ronde. It feels horribly clunky and unbalanced to me. Perhaps I'm just stupid, but it makes a terrible first impression, imo.
- Explore the idea of twin stick shooters. People love these. I don't really see why most shooter fans have a problem with them, tbh. Sure, the majority of twin stick games are largely removed from traditional scrolling shooter gameplay, but it doesn't have to be that way. Look at Score Rush. That's a twin stick bullet hell. You add some in-depth scoring and background scrolling to that, and you have an A+ game. Even my friends who don't like shooters like that game.
- Try embracing current graphical trends. There's a retro revival going on right now. What's old is new. Abuse the shit out of this. People will be blown away when your vectrex graphics explode off their screen with evolving enemies and shifting perspectives.
- Make sure the gameplay is satisfying regardless of scoring mechanics. Then pull some Espgaluda shit and dabble in innovative scoring. Stay away from Espgaluda II, though. That game is fucking bonkers, nobody is gonna understand that shit. Try experimenting with scoring that helps novices (Mars Matrix, Espgaluda) and risk reward systems (Battle Bakraid). If they're all good, include multiple modes.
- Make Mars Matrix 2. Do it. Please.
- Don't be an asshat about people not playing shooters. Just try and push them in the right direction without being a snob about it.
For the record, I hugely dislike Senko No Ronde. It feels horribly clunky and unbalanced to me. Perhaps I'm just stupid, but it makes a terrible first impression, imo.
It's only clunky and unbalanced because you don't know how to take someone down when they use Ernula.
But in all seriousness I agree with most of your ideas. In theory that will sell, though to be honest adding drama and stuff like that is not necessarily for the better. There IS a reason why no one watches Days Of Our Lives anymore.
Special World wrote:Well, I just meant that the story mode would hopefully have a plot that people would actually care about.
Also, everyone watches Days of Our Lives! I cried like a casual gamer yesterday when he cheated on her with that other girl.
"Oh hey, I know all the undeniable evidence is pointing to me that I killed your cousin, made love to your mother and set off all the TNT at your girlfriend's slave's mansion, but IT WASNT ME!!! HONEST!!"
Well well Special World, you definitely hit the nail on the entire problem. You forgot one thing which i'm gonna mention (a personal observation), you see people here love anime, the west that is. However the abuse of ultra-cute characters (lolis) in shmups didn't help the genre at all, while people think of anime, they think of awesome non-uber-cute designs like in Macross, Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the shell. You get what I mean. My point is, that anime should'nt dissapear from shmups, but lolis should. As they creep out the western audience a lot. That's my personal observation.
PS. Japanese think their games will sell better because they have lolis. I call BS on that!
ALSO. The asshole mentality of shmup devs in japan don't want US to play their games. So they region-lock the games, Cave and Asada being the worst evil. You may not remember the Ketsui DS competition that took place sometime after ketsui ds's release. Where MrMonkeyMan topped everyone else in extra mode but Asada rejected the score because he's western. Shmup devs in japan are the main reason what is wrong with the genre, themselves and their asshole narrow mentality. Sorry for harsh words but that's how I see it, deal with it.
Hey, I don't mind seeing stuff like this. The mods might though. 
