Whatever happened to the Ketsui Dump?

indstr · Post by **indstr** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:23 pm

i guess the DS port is the only hope now

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:44 pm

R.Belmont wrote: It's protected by an undumpable MCU and Cave has told us we're in deep trouble if we emulate it. So buy the PCB guilt-free.

Is that guy credible? I'd like to see that message from Cave. Note that he said "emulate", not "dump". And there is NO protection that can't be broken.

I think having the ROM out there would be a nice motivation for Cave to reconsider porting the game rather sooner than later.

If Cave really contacted the MAME team because of the Ketsui dumping project, then it may already have served the purpose to give them a wakeup call. So that's good.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:04 pm

Ceph wrote:
R.Belmont wrote: It's protected by an undumpable MCU and Cave has told us we're in deep trouble if we emulate it. So buy the PCB guilt-free.
Is that guy credible? I'd like to see that message from Cave. Note that he said "emulate", not "dump". And there is NO protection that can't be broken.

I think having the ROM out there would be a nice motivation for Cave to reconsider porting the game.

He's very credible. There's a reason the half-working DOJ driver/dump got removed from MAME...

And while there's no protection that can't be broken, there is a such thing as protection that is too expensive or time consuming to break give current resources. As I understand it, the MCU is quite a tough one; the data they need is contained in execute-only rom, and it's internal. So there's no hope of trojaning it. The best bet may be decapping; but it depends on what kind of rom it is.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:07 pm

I slightly edited my above post while you posted yours.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:15 pm

Ceph wrote:I slightly edited my above post while you posted yours.

What zakk said + buy the PCB if you want to play the game. This will not be in MAME for ages.

drboom · Post by **drboom** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:43 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:buy the PCB if you want to play the game. This will not be in MAME for ages.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:48 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:buy the PCB if you want to play the game. This will not be in MAME for ages. This space is for sale.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:06 pm

The legend will never die. $2K Ketsui bare boards on the horizon!

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:33 pm

Didn't a lot of the members here put money into this? They should at least give the PCB to the person who donated the most money. I know I'd be pretty steamed right now if this game was just kept by those douche bag Mame people, and not someone who hoped to play it. Maybe we could pass the PCB around or something.

What did the Mame people say they were going to do with it anyway?

Radiant · Post by **Radiant** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:35 pm

GaijinPunch wrote: buy the PCB if you want to play the game.

+1

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:45 pm

I'd rather wait 10 years to play the games on MAME and play other stuff meanwhile than buying a PCB at the cost of a computer lol T.T

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:48 pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:I'd rather wait 10 years to play the games on MAME and play other stuff meanwhile than buying a PCB at the cost of a computer lol T.T

You can just buy it, play it, then sell it a few months later and get all your money back. Can't do that with a computer.

Then you can wait for it to be in MAME in a decade or so to play it again.

And waiting 10+ years to play a Cave game? No thanks.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:52 pm

Have fun waiting.

Here's a little Ketsui simulator to keep you occupied for the next 10 years.

Don't spoil it and try not to use continues.

Hibou · Post by **Hibou** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:01 pm

Ceph wrote:
R.Belmont wrote: It's protected by an undumpable MCU and Cave has told us we're in deep trouble if we emulate it. So buy the PCB guilt-free.
Is that guy credible? I'd like to see that message from Cave. Note that he said "emulate", not "dump". And there is NO protection that can't be broken.

As zakk said, Arbee is *very* credible.

When he says "emulate" and not "dump", he's probably reffering to the MCU itself. That means he's thinking Ketsui's ROMs can be dumped except this one, and the undumpable MCU needs to be emulated (simulated would perhaps be a better term) by some rough hack trying to do the same job.

That would explain Cave's attitude. Perhaps they probably wouldn't bother too much if Ketsui just could be played in MAME. But a code floating around which would show how to simulate the encypted MCUs they rely on without even needing to dump them, may appear as a major concern for them. After all, they could rely on similar chips in other PCBs than Ketsui...

Radiant · Post by **Radiant** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:02 pm

Awesome

here is the upgrade kit for Ura Loop .......

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:20 pm

Collector's sigh of relief.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:28 pm

Funny signature, Rob. I lol'd.

Mortificator · Post by **Mortificator** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:46 pm

R.Belmont wrote:It's protected by an undumpable MCU and Cave has told us we're in deep trouble if we emulate it.

I thought that distributing ROMs was copyright infringement, but emulation itself was legal. Considering Cave's been know to threaten to prosecute to the full extent of the jam for using their boards outside Japan, I wonder how much weight this has.

Hibou wrote:Arbee

Effyouseekay whyohyou.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:10 pm

Indeed, emulation itself is not illegal, which is why you can freely download MAME at the MAME site. R.Belmont is a very credible MAME source, he's done a lot of emulation work over the years. However, just because the MAME people won't likely be trying to emulate it anytime soon, doesn't mean that no-one else will. There are lots of other emu authors out there, and lots of other emulators, many of which exist because MAME did not support the games emulated in them in the first place. Indeed, a lot of the games that are now in MAME were emulated first in other emulators years before they appeared in MAME. Not all that long ago, everyone thought that the CPS3 encrption was impossible to crack.

Geezer · Post by **Geezer** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:20 pm

bcass-surely the popularity of the software has something to do with it? A lot of people would have wanted to have a crack at CPS3 as it's high profile, I wouldn't have thought Ketsui would attract the same sort of attention.

Isn't the sound in Dogyuun contained in an undumpable MCU? What if Ketsui meets the same fate and is emulated in an incomplete form for ages? Dogyuun is a 16 year old game

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:48 pm

Geezer wrote:bcass-surely the popularity of the software has something to do with it? A lot of people would have wanted to have a crack at CPS3 as it's high profile, I wouldn't have thought Ketsui would attract the same sort of attention.

That's true to some extent. Usually if you have more people working on an emulation project you're probably more likely to see a result.

Geezer wrote:Isn't the sound in Dogyuun contained in an undumpable MCU? What if Ketsui meets the same fate and is emulated in an incomplete form for ages? Dogyuun is a 16 year old game

Yeah, but people haven't been trying to emulate it for 16 years! Also, I think that audio chip in Dogyuun is on guru's list of chips to be decapped. I don't know how long this decapping process has been going on for in the world of emulation. If it's a fairly recent development/option, then I'd imagine that's why that chip has taken so long to emulate.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:12 pm

Is there any true, solid confirmation that it was cave and not ARIKA that made comments to mamedev about emulation?

Last I heard the only time anything was threatened was by ARIKA, and that was when they were attempting the port.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:20 pm

I suspect that's what R.Belmont was referring to, and not something specific to Ketsui.

moonblood · Post by **moonblood** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:54 pm

Hm, was there ever any hoopla when Progear was 'released'? Just something I thought of

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:55 pm

I think Progear was first emulated in Final Burn Alpha, not MAME. That was another scenario where all the collectors were claiming it would be 10 years before we saw it emulated...

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:57 pm

moonblood wrote:Hm, was there ever any hoopla when Progear was 'released'? Just something I thought of

I know I went nuts.

And then I bought a CPS-2 set shortly afterwards and never emulated it again.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:07 am

moonblood wrote:Hm, was there ever any hoopla when Progear was 'released'? Just something I thought of

exactly.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:49 am

Dale wrote:Didn't a lot of the members here put money into this? They should at least give the PCB to the person who donated the most money. I know I'd be pretty steamed right now if this game was just kept by those douche bag Mame people, and not someone who hoped to play it.

you know what I hate? people that dictate what should be done about something even they didnt contribute a single damn thing to the project

Maybe we could pass the PCB around or something

we?

I'll put you 1st in the queue for it, you seem completely deserving of it..

Hibou · Post by **Hibou** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:04 am

Mortificator wrote:
Hibou wrote:Arbee
Effyouseekay whyohyou.

I guess I'm missing something here... Is there a problem with him ?

hermosaguy · Post by **hermosaguy** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:06 am

iatneH wrote:Have fun waiting.

Here's a little Ketsui simulator to keep you occupied for the next 10 years.

Don't spoil it and try not to use continues.

This seriously made my weekend!