XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Ashura]

Finished that Sega Saturn label for the next color in the rainbow. Major...Pain...In the ASS. Turns out there are literally NO decent scans of the North American Saturn logo. They are all low print quality with lots of artifacts. Spent an hour combing through Google images before finally giving up. Had to rely on scan work with some pixel-editing. Unless there's some hidden gem somewhere, you won't see a North American original logo (not someone's interpretive artwork) this clean:

As for the text, both NA and UK have a retarded official design. Japanese text is like 1,000 times better. Had to use it.

Anyway, I'll stop spamming the thread with this work. Just wanted to show how the progression will look on the color backdrops. I'll hold off on posting another update until I have the full set finished.


-FBX

As far as I understand, there is no official 'vector' version of the US/EU logo, at least not during the time of the Saturn being contemporary. On the official template, it's sort of a vector + raster mashup. Where the text is vectored around (roughly), but the actual art itself is raster.




Some of the shapes aren't the best, but then this was being done in the late 90s in illustrator or Quark.

You can tell, even with the globe, the cutting out wasn't so great:



Again, this is off of the official US template for Saturn games. Sega accepted packaging in digital since the Genesis era, luckily, so a lot more games exist like this. (SNES required film submission for packaging, even if you could design digital. PS1 required film for a long time, too.)

EDIT:

BTW, FBX, you lose about 10-15% brightness from a computer monitor to print. With how dark the bg is on your Saturn label, on a lot of printers it'll probably come out a bit muddled. I'm actually impressed you did this in 3D Studio Max of all things; usually we would take measurements of the scan and build a template in indesign.

[FBX]

EDIT:

BTW, FBX, you lose about 10-15% brightness from a computer monitor to print. With how dark the bg is on your Saturn label, on a lot of printers it'll probably come out a bit muddled. I'm actually impressed you did this in 3D Studio Max of all things; usually we would take measurements of the scan and build a template in indesign.

I've already since then upped the brightness by 40 points on all three channels. I just haven't posted the new versions because I'm waiting until I finish the full set (I'm halfway through the Nintendo line right now).

But at any rate, the logo you see on my Saturn label is in fact the official design. It was actually airbrushed originally by the artist, and then Sega transferred it to print. All of the vector ones online I found to be inaccurate to the original print files Sega used, and it wasn't that hard to spot the different either. Seriously, try Googling up some box scans and look at the difference between those and the vector image everyone uses now. It's not even the same thing.

Edit: Here's an example of the original design:



And here's the vector imaging that everyone seems to copy now that is not what Sega used:





-FBX

[Ashura]

I've already since then upped the brightness by 40 points on all three channels. I just haven't posted the new versions because I'm waiting until I finish the full set (I'm halfway through the Nintendo line right now).

But at any rate, the logo you see on my Saturn label is in fact the official design. It was actually airbrushed originally by the artist, and then Sega transferred it to print. All of the vector ones online I found to be inaccurate to the original print files Sega used, and it wasn't that hard to spot the different either. Seriously, try Googling up some box scans and look at the difference between those and the vector image everyone uses now. It's not even the same thing.

It is the official design, but it looks like it's been scanned in from another source? It looks like you can see de-moiring on it.

And yes, 100%. Trust me, I know how inaccurate this stuff online can be! The stuff I just posted isn't from googling online, or scanned in, but from my files of the official packaging templates for Saturn games. You cannot get more accurate than that. I was just saying that, there's no real 'vector' version of that logo- on the official template they scanned in that artwork and just outlined it a little bit.

Edit: Yeah, no argument. That guy's stuff isn't bad but way inaccurate. I'm not talking about his work though. What I'm talking about/showing here are the official files from the 3rd Party template.

[FBX]

It is the official design, but it looks like it's been scanned in from another source? It looks like you can see de-moiring on it.

And I mentioned at least a couple times that I was forced to pixel edit a scan in order to get the official logo of decent quality. I could find nothing on the internet that had anything better that wasn't a fan interpretation, and I'm trying to avoid that as much as possible.

And yes, 100%. Trust me, I know how inaccurate this stuff online can be! The stuff I just posted isn't from googling online, or scanned in, but from my files of the official packaging templates for Saturn games. You cannot get more accurate than that. I was just saying that, there's no real 'vector' version of that logo- on the official template they scanned in that artwork and just outlined it a little bit.

Is it forbidden fruit for me to have a look at the template you have for that logo? As I said, I couldn't find anything 'official' online other than scan work.

What I'm talking about/showing here are the official files from the 3rd Party template.

Which I'd like to actually see and compare to box scans if you don't mind.


-FBX

[Ashura]

I don't know about posting the whole template, but I'll separate out the Saturn logo for you. This is in a bunch of stuff I'm trying to get together to send to the game history org. The template itself isn't in the best of shape at this point and I'm working to restore parts of it. I also have the red-spine Sega Genesis template and I've been working on that more lately. These were all done in a version of Quark which doesn't work on modern machines anymore, so it's all takes a bit to bring back to life on modern machines.

[FBX]

I don't know about posting the whole template, but I'll separate out the Saturn logo for you.

Much appreciated. I'm not worried about the text as I find it rather ugly compared to the Japanese design anyway.

By the way, if there's a question of my skill in 3DS Max, here are a couple of my more recent chess-themed renders I do on occasion:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/art ... review.jpg

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/art ... review.jpg

I do all my own modeling in those images.

-FBX

[Ashura]

I don't know about posting the whole template, but I'll separate out the Saturn logo for you.

Much appreciated. I'm not worried about the text as I find it rather ugly compared to the Japanese design anyway.

By the way, if there's a question of my skill in 3DS Max, here are a couple of my more recent chess-themed renders I do on occasion:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/art ... review.jpg

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/art ... review.jpg

I do all my own modeling in those images.

-FBX

No question about your 3DS skill! Those look cool. I was just surprised/kind of amazed you went through doing it in 3D! It just seemed like a harder way to do it, but, I work in print, so I'm used to building dielines and such in indesign and illustrator for my pieces. I've never done it the 3D Max Route.

Here is the official Saturn logo right out of the eps files. Note that the vectoring tracing/cropping around the logos, even if it's pretty rough, is from the official template! It could use some refining. It has both the 'traced' and 'untraced' (meaning, merged on white) versions in there.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oc4iubtcekzbr ... 01.ai?dl=0

[FBX]

No question about your 3DS skill! Those look cool. I was just surprised/kind of amazed you went through doing it in 3D! It just seemed like a harder way to do it, but, I work in print, so I'm used to building dielines and such in indesign and illustrator for my pieces. I've never done it the 3D Max Route.

Oh thanks for the link! Yeah that's definitely the real logo you've got there. Now I can add it to the finalized label in place of the scanned one.

As for doing it in 3DS, it's just a format I am used to. I use photoshop to make the textures, which I then assign to each of the 'segments' of the label that I modeled in 3DS. The benefit is if I need to position/align the logo, the UVW mapping of the texture is automatically applied to both 'wings'. It makes for super fast production of the final output, and because UVW mapping can be controlled mathematically, there's no 'eyeballing' required.

Thanks again for the logo file!


-FBX

[douglie007]

I need to help too, these are ones I made using the others as a template, so I have all my systems covered

[jade88]

Another question from a xrgb owner, on the 5x Pixel purist profile why do the scanlines line up perfectly in 1080p but not 720p?

Scanlines in 1080p look better than I was led to believe, firmware update?

[FBX]

Another question from a xrgb owner, on the 5x Pixel purist profile why do the scanlines line up perfectly in 1080p but not 720p?

Scanlines in 1080p look better than I was led to believe, firmware update?

You shouldn't use 5x profile on 720 output. It's only meant for 1080. In the latest package, there's a 720 profile for the SNES. Use that one for 720.

[jade88]

Another question from a xrgb owner, on the 5x Pixel purist profile why do the scanlines line up perfectly in 1080p but not 720p?

Scanlines in 1080p look better than I was led to believe, firmware update?

You shouldn't use 5x profile on 720 output. It's only meant for 1080. In the latest package, there's a 720 profile for the SNES. Use that one for 720.

Ah ok. I've also noticed that the black bars on each side vary on a game by game basis. For instance in a Link to the past, the black bar on the right side seems larger. Why is this?

[FBX]

Another question from a xrgb owner, on the 5x Pixel purist profile why do the scanlines line up perfectly in 1080p but not 720p?

Scanlines in 1080p look better than I was led to believe, firmware update?

You shouldn't use 5x profile on 720 output. It's only meant for 1080. In the latest package, there's a 720 profile for the SNES. Use that one for 720.

Ah ok. I've also noticed that the black bars on each side vary on a game by game basis. For instance in a Link to the past, the black bar on the right side seems larger. Why is this?

The profile doesn't variate, so any change you are seeing must be coming from the game itself.

[Rasdock]

I'm having a devil of a time getting a decent picture on my PS2. It's seeing little playtime for sure because of it (I've not had the system long). Is this the rare system where I would be better off using component instead of scart cables?

I have:

Original Japanese PS2, region modded
Sync-on-luma scart from retro_console_accessories
XRGB-mini
Samsung 4K

One problem is knowing how to balance the three screen settings. There's an option on the PS2 for 4:3 or 16:9. The TV can be set to 16x9, 4x3, Auto, Full. And, of course, the Framemeister can be Wide, Auto, Normal (or whatever the third is called). I think I have them set to 16:9, 16x9, Wide, but I don't really get a wide screen. I'm not even sure which--if any--PS2 games were true widescreen.

Even worse, I'm getting this terrible, terrible grid effect on one of the games I've been checking out (1943 on one of the Capcom Collections). This is not scanline-related, because it's there with or without scanlines. I don't know if it'll show up in my pictures:





Any insight into this? Again, is component better with the PS2? At the moment, I'm retreating to my Saturn!

[FBX]

I'm not even sure which--if any--PS2 games were true widescreen.

Here's a list with pertinent information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... play_modes


If you're using NTSC PS2, you can try my profiles I made. They include widescreen versions too.

-FBX

[Rasdock]

I do have your profiles, but I need to look more closely at the text file to see which I should be using. My only widescreen game appears to be Gran Turismo 3. Thanks for the list.

Do you have any ideas about that crazy grid on that game (and others on the Capcom collection)? I need to hook up the composite cable and see if it's present there.

[FBX]

I do have your profiles, but I need to look more closely at the text file to see which I should be using. My only widescreen game appears to be Gran Turismo 3. Thanks for the list.

Do you have any ideas about that crazy grid on that game (and others on the Capcom collection)? I need to hook up the composite cable and see if it's present there.

Never played Capcom collection on the PS2, so I can't help you there. Every game I have is crystal clear on my PS2.

Anyway,

Another package update:

Code: Select all

Added the following new profiles:

720p:

N64720 -- NTSC Nintendo 64 3x vertical scaled and aspect-corrected.

PS1720 -- NTSC Sony Playstation 3x vertical scaled and aspect-corrected.

SAT720 -- NTSC Sega Saturn 240p modes 3x vertical scaled and aspect-corrected.

SATIN720 -- NTSC Sega Saturn 480i modes 1.5x vertical scaled and aspect-corrected.

Also updated all of the 1080 Saturn profiles with better alignment and aspect correction. Updated and renamed the Dreamcast Toro box profile to "38DCTORO", which now has confirmed perfect A/D calibration based on the brighter Toro Box switch setting.

Warning concerning the "38DCTORO" profile: It uses signal parameters that are NOT compatible with other consoles. If you decide to switch from the Dreamcast to another console, you'll need to load that console's profile before turning that console on, or you will likely get a garbled picture. You can optionally load the "00DFAULT" profile instead in order to reset the signal parameters to center positions after you finish using the Dreamcast.

To conlcude this package release, I want to remind everyone to adjust the "BRIGHTNESS" setting in the "COLOR_SET" menu to their liking. Everyone's display is going to look different or be on different settings, so I cannot set those color features for you. Just use your best judgment and re-save the profiles as needed. 

Hit refresh on your browser if my page still shows July 18th date. It should load the July 30th page.


-FBX

[FBX]

So I'm beginning to think there's been some changes going on with the "IMAGE_MODE" options as it concerns de-interlacing and level of detail. I started doing some tests with Street Fight III 3RD Strike for the PS2 (from the anniversary collection). This game is 480i as some of you may know. Here's what I've found on the behavior for 2.03a:

"STANDARD" mode is now has barely any LPF applied detail combined with adaptive de-interlacing. Has some combing artifacts.

"GAME_1" Has a significant 'smearing' filter on the horizontal axis, and applies linear de-interlacing. Has minimal combing artifacts.

"GAME_2" Does away with the 'smearing' filter, but retains the linear de-interlacer. Has minimal combing artifacts.

Edit: Did some pixel-level comparisons, and I think "NATURAL" may still have a very slightly sharper picture than "STANDARD". However, "GAME_2" is still the best mode for de-interlacing fighting games.

Edit 2: Okay so I did find some cases of combing artifacts in "GAME_2" but it's far less than found in "NATURAL".

[FBX]

Quick update to the profile package:

Code: Select all

Added a separate folder with "Deep Color Noise Reduction" profiles. These profiles have 12-bit color mode output tuned on, which has been shown to often significantly reduce background noise in the picture. However, this mode is not compatible with some HDMI switch boxes and displays, so use at your own risk of getting a blank screen after trying to load them. 

[Ward1986]

so I got bored.

Woah, those are awesome! Would you consider sharing them? I think people would love to print them and make their own!

Please forgive my ignorance, I don't use photoshop or any photo editing software for that matter. I downloaded gimp in order to open your file, however when I print it the labels aren't to scale? Can you help please?

[FBX]

Please forgive my ignorance, I don't use photoshop or any photo editing software for that matter. I downloaded gimp in order to open your file, however when I print it the labels aren't to scale? Can you help please?

I don't know how gimp works, but normally you'd need to set the print resolution to scale the labels to the right size you want. The ones I've been working on already have the print size set, and I could use someone else to test this if you wouldn't mind trying them out. I don't have them all finished yet, but here's ones I finished in a zip package:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/sca ... Labels.zip

Check and see if they print out at the right size (hopefully gimp doesn't mess with the presets).

-FBX

[Fudoh]

they have the right size at 300dpi. Some imaging software ignores the set resolution, but if you adjust the value back to 300 dpi, they'll have the right size.

I would just add some bleed area before printing though.

[FBX]

I would just add some bleed area before printing though.

Good idea. I'll make sure to add this on mine as I continue with the project. I will say that designing these with full-color logos has been a real challenge. Some of them don't jive very well with colored backgrounds, and so I have to get creative to find a solution.

[theclaw]

I'm having a devil of a time getting a decent picture on my PS2. It's seeing little playtime for sure because of it (I've not had the system long). Is this the rare system where I would be better off using component instead of scart cables?

I have:

Original Japanese PS2, region modded
Sync-on-luma scart from retro_console_accessories
XRGB-mini
Samsung 4K

One problem is knowing how to balance the three screen settings. There's an option on the PS2 for 4:3 or 16:9. The TV can be set to 16x9, 4x3, Auto, Full. And, of course, the Framemeister can be Wide, Auto, Normal (or whatever the third is called). I think I have them set to 16:9, 16x9, Wide, but I don't really get a wide screen. I'm not even sure which--if any--PS2 games were true widescreen.

Even worse, I'm getting this terrible, terrible grid effect on one of the games I've been checking out (1943 on one of the Capcom Collections). This is not scanline-related, because it's there with or without scanlines. I don't know if it'll show up in my pictures:





Any insight into this? Again, is component better with the PS2? At the moment, I'm retreating to my Saturn!

PS2 component can have artifacts most users don't notice. Absolutely more user friendly.
It allows for 480p without the sync on green problem. And DVD movies won't turn green.

You could try the game on Xbox for its 480p upscaling. The PS2 version of the first Capcom Collection is 480i only. (volume 2 has 480p on both)

[Blair]

And DVD movies won't turn green.

that's actually not a problem if you can manually set the color space of your display or video processor. I have my ps2 connected via scart RGB and it can play DVDs just fine that way, just have to set the color space on the monitor (or processor) to Component/YUV.

Also I remember some mod chips had a setting called "RGB Fix" or "Green Fix" that forced DVD videos to play in the proper RGB color space. but I've never used one, so I don't know the details.

[Larrs888]

I would at least try another PSU. Reminds me of analogue interference.

I just wanted to advise that I bought a replacement Framemeister PSU, 5v, 2.0A from Amazon and the white dot like noise interference has gone. I am hugely relieved, at first I thought it was my Neo Geo then my XRGB Mini. A £8.00 new PSU and problem solved, the last one was only 2.5 years old but at least its sorted.

I know there is a general noise issues with the XRGB Mini on solid colours. My SNES and PS1 are particularly bad with very noticeable noise on grey colours, the Final Fantasy 3 into for example. I will post a video when I have time but I would like to see if other users have similar issues and the noise isn't really subtle and I want to see if its the common issues or something else. I am tempted to get some new SCART Cables to test as my Mega Drive and Neo Geo don't really show this issue.

Edit: I added a video of the noise on my SNES (I also get it on PS1 but Mega Drive and Neo Geo seem ok. My SNES is a Jnr/Mini with RGB AMP and C-SYNC with a SCART cable from Retro Gaming Cables. I know there is a subtle noise issue with the Framemeister due to the A/D conversion but its pretty bad on mine.

Sadly You Tube compression makes it hard to make out but it is really flickery across parts of the screen, mainly on the right side and top right on the brown background.

https://youtu.be/fCaTCLK_SRs

Could someone do my a favour please and check Final Fantasy 3 on their setup to see if its similar, its also bad on the grey parts of the title screen. Thanks guys!

[Dochartaigh]

Well that was fast…ordered my XRGB-mini Framemeister from Solaris Japan on Monday, being delivered today in the East Coast of the USA!

I’ve been reading the Wiki on junkerhq.net/xrgb, and have some questions so I can get setup tonight:

• Firmware: on micomsoft.co.jp, do I want the newest BETA Firmware version 2.03a? Or are people staying with the official 2.02? (some companies I always use beta as they’re super-reliable, but I don’t know how Micomsoft is).

• Does the XRGB come with a SD Card anymore? If not, I’m fine with a 16gb MicroSD card, right? How should I format the card? I’ve heard about Mac’s having some issues - something with hidden files?


For FBX’s profiles, I assume everything it setup on them? Like I shouldn’t have to go into any settings (perhaps centering which is different on every TV I read?) to get started? As there’s SO MANY friggin options on the Framemeister I thought I would start out with these pre-made settings. Some questions:

• If my TV will accept the Deep Color Noise Reduction profiles (read that not every TV will), do most people stick with these, or the regular profiles?

• Any detriment to sticking with only 1080p profiles? (which I read FBX likes best).

• What are the 3x “Producer Profiles” - which seem to only be for NES, SNES, and Genesis?



I’m sure I’ll have more questions but this is a good start.

[TheShadowRunner]

Well that was fast…ordered my XRGB-mini Framemeister from Solaris Japan on Monday, being delivered today in the East Coast of the USA!

I’ve been reading the Wiki on junkerhq.net/xrgb, and have some questions so I can get setup tonight:

• Firmware: on micomsoft.co.jp, do I want the newest BETA Firmware version 2.03a? Or are people staying with the official 2.02? (some companies I always use beta as they’re super-reliable, but I don’t know how Micomsoft is).

• Does the XRGB come with a SD Card anymore? If not, I’m fine with a 16gb MicroSD card, right? How should I format the card? I’ve heard about Mac’s having some issues - something with hidden files?


For FBX’s profiles, I assume everything it setup on them? Like I shouldn’t have to go into any settings (perhaps centering which is different on every TV I read?) to get started? As there’s SO MANY friggin options on the Framemeister I thought I would start out with these pre-made settings. Some questions:

• If my TV will accept the Deep Color Noise Reduction profiles (read that not every TV will), do most people stick with these, or the regular profiles?

• Any detriment to sticking with only 1080p profiles? (which I read FBX likes best).

• What are the 3x “Producer Profiles” - which seem to only be for NES, SNES, and Genesis?



I’m sure I’ll have more questions but this is a good start.

Ok, Firmware, you can install Micomsoft's beta 2.03a, it's solid.
microSD, you'll need one, none is provided with the Mini. You can use 16gb but 4gb is more than enough (it's only used to store profiles, less than 1mb for sure).
For FBX's profile I'm not sure, i'm outputting 720p for scanlines..

[FBX]

For FBX’s profiles, I assume everything it setup on them? Like I shouldn’t have to go into any settings (perhaps centering which is different on every TV I read?) to get started? As there’s SO MANY friggin options on the Framemeister I thought I would start out with these pre-made settings. Some questions:

• If my TV will accept the Deep Color Noise Reduction profiles (read that not every TV will), do most people stick with these, or the regular profiles?

• Any detriment to sticking with only 1080p profiles? (which I read FBX likes best).

• What are the 3x “Producer Profiles” - which seem to only be for NES, SNES, and Genesis?

1. Centering may or may not be slightly different, but it's nothing big to worry about. Just let me know if you noticed something being slightly cut off on the sides, and I can help you adjust it to fit.

2. Deep Color: You definitely want to use these if your setup is compatible with them. It reduces background noise by a noticeable margin.

3. I only like 1080p best on 1080p HDTVs. If you're using a 4K TV, it's better to use 720p profiles, because 240p scales perfectly into 9x with those profiles on a 4K TV.

4. The Producer profiles are 1080p 4x240 and so not have any of my custom masking. This is for youtubers that want to crop the games manually in a video editor.

Lastly, the only settings from my profiles that you'll want to adjust to your TV is the "COLOR_SET" >> "BRIGHTNESS" to your liking, and also "SPECIAL" >> "A/D LEVEL". Now the A/D level is tricky because you'll need Artemio's 240p test suite to properly calibrate it with using his color bars test screen. You would adjust the A/D until the top two green shades are distinguishable. If you don't have access to Artemio's Test Suites, then leave A/D at around 132 and it will be generally safe.

[Dochartaigh]

Thanks guys! I'm running cables now - haven't even plugged anything in yet, couple quick wire questions (as I'm literally routing from my game room to the room next door with the 60" 1080p TV...haven't figured out how to consolidate my CRT's with my single LED quite yet...).

I quickly opened up the EU SCART to RGB In adapter they sent with this. Doesn't seem to be any wiring for audio (which all my SCART cables off the consoles have integrated audio so I don't get that...). Does the audio plug into the same side (front) of the XRGB Mini? (with the yellow composite and S-Video next to it)?

The only other connection type I have is Component, which I bought the funky D-something adapter for that which the audio plugs right next to that which is simple.

Out of curiosity, what's up with the HDMI inputs? All the HDMI systems I know of (PS3/4, Xbox 360/Xbox One...I'm sure a Nintendo_something too) are all at least 720p? Is this for the rare few who did HDMI mods on their systems?

Last (just thinking to the future), how do people even (NICELY/CLEANLY!!!) integrate this into their systems? With the two most common input types (RGB and Component) you now have wires sticking out a great distance off the front AND rear of it. Sorry, but simply put that's just a bad design. I'm assuming the XRGB Mini needs to be facing forward for the IR remote to work, right? I see an IR extender in my future so I can hide this monstrosity of plugs and wires in a deep dark drawer lol. Off to format an SD card now!