NESRGB board available now

[Ed Oscuro]

Just 2 weeks ago I got sick of the "slight" diagonal bars on my SFC Jr. (Mini) through RGB, and explored around the bottom of the SFC PCB to see if I could eliminate these bars. Well, there are about 3 unused SMD pads for resistors, and a few unused pads for capacitors near the underside of the PPU / video encoder. Bridging one of those capacitor pads cleared up the problem completely; I recommend trying it.

Revenge of the engineers! Always fascinating the nice touches that management ends up removing to save a few cents here and there. Will those pads do anything for alternate video outputs, though (like S-Video)? If not, I guess it was a no-brainer to lose it...

[game-tech.us]

Bridging one of those capacitor pads cleared up the problem completely; I recommend trying it.

Bridging or adding the cap back in? If bridging I assume it was not a power bypass cap...
Either way, which one or ones?

[Josh128]

Well, I switched over to CS#. I thought perhaps it had taken care of the diagonal lines, but it appears that they are still there. Perhaps they aren't as pronounced, though. Either way, I would prefer composite sync over composite video.

As for the "whirly" lines that look like unraveled yarn, I expect those to go away once I replace the cable. I had pretty much the exact same issue with unshielded SNES NTSC SCART cables before I got a higher quality cable from a different seller. Of course, who knows if the cables I ordered are good enough, but we will see.

What kind of converter, if any, are you using to get the RGB to the TV? Are you using any switches? I used the RGB+audio cable and connectors Tim sold with the NESRGB kit. Poor quality cables can also be a culprit, at least with component. I used a cheap set of Chinese cables for my Wii for the longest time on a CRT and found they were good. Bought a 51" plasma and all of a sudden I get some strange "ghost artifacts" moving slowly across the screen with Wii. Tried all the usual grounding/power/ AV interference tests to clear it, no banana. I bought a set of nice ass Rocketfish Wii component cables and tried them-- the "ghost lines" disappeared! Reverted back to the cheap cables, they came back! I highly recommend Rocketfish cables for the Wii. They fit so tight on the component jacks that I dont like to remove them because Im afraid Im going to pull the jacks out of the set!

Dont ever let anyone tell you that cable quality doesnt matter-- in analog A/V, it most certainly does!

[CkRtech]

What kind of converter, if any, are you using to get the RGB to the TV?

Just the rgb-mini upscaler. The 8 pin mini din cable itself is just one I grabbed cheap off ebay - I knew it wouldn't be good for true system integration, but it works for testing mods. This is the one that is on the way - I hope it is good enough. http://www.ebay.com/itm/171256361706

[ccovell]

Bridging one of those capacitor pads cleared up the problem completely; I recommend trying it.

Bridging or adding the cap back in? If bridging I assume it was not a power bypass cap...
Either way, which one or ones?

Gah, you pushed me into opening up my SFC Jr. again. Well, I just tested composite video, and it looks like the pad in question was a chroma shunt because the picture is B&W in composite now. Never noticed because I only use RGB anyway. Can't say what happens to S-Video because the SFC Jr. doesn't have it connected anyway (S-Video mod is needed if you want it.)

Anyway, here's a pic of the location to bridge (C48):


You can experiment with putting in a cap, varicap, switch, whatever. I just did a simple solder bridge.

The change in quality is slight but noticeable in flat blue or green areas of colour:


(Sorry for this off-topic tangent...)

[Josh128]

Well its sorta related to the topic as those jailbars you in the pics you posted look exactly like the ones I had on my NESRGB. Sky blues seem to be the easiest colors to see the jailbars.

If that is a chroma shunt, and you effectively pulled the chroma data out of your composite video, that certainly would make sense as to why it fixed the jailbars. You essentially have less unneeded signal riding on your composite video signal, which as I understand, you are using for sync. Basically if you could find a way to shunt the luma out of the signal, you would essentially be left with pure composite sync!

Although cool for discovery/discussion purposes, this seems like a REALLY inefficient way to use composite sync. Couldnt you just open your SCART cable on the SNES multi-side and move the wire on pin 9 (composite video) to pin 3 (Composite Sync)? I'm going to try it again this morning to see what happens.

***UPDATE***
Well-- I moved the sync wire from pin 9 to pin 3 and now the N64 works perfect with it! The first time I tried it (and it gave rolling/flashing screen), I had a THS7314 mounted on its pinboard that had a cold solder joint (WASNT ME, I purchased it pre-made off Ebay!) on one of the legs-- I found this by pressing on the chip with my finger after trouble shooting some other issues (after I had reverted back to composite sync). I had to re-flow all solder on the legs of the chip to fix this. It was intermittent when it was there, so I suppose it was just coincidence I had experienced those issues the first time I tried to use C-sync on the 64.

BUT...it doesnt work with the SNES Mini-- I get a brief look at the screen, which is a bit distorted, then it messes up. Perhaps the SNES mini does not output C-sync on pin 3 or at all? I have confirmed though, that it does work on the SNES model 1, perfectly. Thats really of no use though, because even using composite video sync, my RGB modded mini looks about 10x better than the SNES model 1 using C-sync! I know this is all OT, but if anyone can shed some light on getting C-sync from the mini I would appreciate it a lot. If anyone knows can you PM me? In the meanwhile I'll try sync on Luma, but Im not sure the SNES mini even supports that.

[Skips]

Well its sorta related to the topic as those jailbars you in the pics you posted look exactly like the ones I had on my NESRGB. Sky blues seem to be the easiest colors to see the jailbars.

If that is a chroma shunt, and you effectively pulled the chroma data out of your composite video, that certainly would make sense as to why it fixed the jailbars. You essentially have less unneeded signal riding on your composite video signal, which as I understand, you are using for sync. Basically if you could find a way to shunt the luma out of the signal, you would essentially be left with pure composite sync!

Although cool for discovery/discussion purposes, this seems like a REALLY inefficient way to use composite sync. Couldnt you just open your SCART cable on the SNES multi-side and move the wire on pin 9 (composite video) to pin 3 (Composite Sync)? I'm going to try it again this morning to see what happens.

***UPDATE***
Well-- I moved the sync wire from pin 9 to pin 3 and now the N64 works perfect with it! The first time I tried it, I later found had a THS7314 mounted on its pinboard that had a colder solder joint (WASNT ME, I purchased it pre-made off Ebay!) on one of the legs-- I found this by pressing on the chip with my finger after trouble shooting some other issues (after I had reverted back to composite sync). I had to re-flow all solder on the legs of the chip to fix this. It was intermittent, so I suppose it was just conincidence I had experienced those issues the first time I tried to use C-sync on the 64.

BUT...it doesnt work with the SNES Mini-- I get a brief look at the screen, which is a bit distorted, then it messes up. Perhaps the SNES mini does not output C-sync on pin 3 or at all? I have confirmed though, that it does work on the SNES model 1, perfectly. Thats really of no use though, because even using composite video sync, my RGB modded mini looks about 10x better than the SNES model 1 using C-sync! I know this is all OT, but if anyone can shed some light on getting C-sync from the mini I would appreciate it a lot. If anyone knows can you PM me? In the meanwhile I'll try sync on Luma, but Im not sure the SNES mini even supports that.

Composite Sync is not connected to the AV port in the SNES mini. You need to run a wire from pin 7 on the video encoder to pin 3 on the AV port. And no, the mini does not have S-Video connected either so you cant use that at the AV port unless you connect it first.

[Josh128]

Got it!! Used the info here http://retrorgb.com/snesminirgb.html ran a sync wire to pin 3 and voila! It works. I have to say though, I didnt really notice any improvement at all over using composite video, with either the N64 or SNES Mini. Definitely nothing even as close to as dramatic as what happened with the NESRGB.

BTW, Skips, did you mod your mini with an amp or just straight wire to the RGB chip with 75Ohm resistors in line? I did the staight wire setup, it was extremely easy and it looks fantastic.

[TheRetromancer]

Got it!! Used the info here http://retrorgb.com/snesminirgb.html ran a sync wire to pin 3 and voila! It works. I have to say though, I didnt really notice any improvement at all over using composite video, with either the N64 or SNES Mini. Definitely nothing even as close to as dramatic as what happened with the NESRGB.

BTW, Skips, did you mod your mini with an amp or just straight wire to the RGB chip with 75Ohm resistors in line? I did the staight wire setup, it was extremely easy and it looks fantastic.

IMHO, amping the mini's RGB output is pointless. The picture is brilliant already with the 75Ω resistors, and throwing in the THS7314 is not only a waste of time, but of materials as well.

[keropi]

back on the "too loud" problem, is NESRGB's audio mixer more quiet than the stock famicomAV one?

[TheRetromancer]

back on the "too loud" problem, is NESRGB's audio mixer more quiet than the stock famicomAV one?

*thoughtfully* It doesn't seem to be. I have the NESRGB in my AV Famicom, and I have the expansion audio going into the mixer through a 47kΩ resistor. When I use my Everdrive-N8, the volume is perfect. When I throw in some of my Famicom carts, like Gimmick! or Akumajou Densetsu, the volume seems fine as well (despite people making the claim that 47kΩ won't work for both regular Fami carts and for the Everdrive).

I'm really at a loss to explain the assertions otherwise. Do I just have the world's greatest AV Famicom?

[Skips]

Got it!! Used the info here http://retrorgb.com/snesminirgb.html ran a sync wire to pin 3 and voila! It works. I have to say though, I didnt really notice any improvement at all over using composite video, with either the N64 or SNES Mini. Definitely nothing even as close to as dramatic as what happened with the NESRGB.

BTW, Skips, did you mod your mini with an amp or just straight wire to the RGB chip with 75Ohm resistors in line? I did the staight wire setup, it was extremely easy and it looks fantastic.

IMHO, amping the mini's RGB output is pointless. The picture is brilliant already with the 75Ω resistors, and throwing in the THS7314 is not only a waste of time, but of materials as well.

Incorrect. Some of the minis also suffer from the translucent center bar problem. Bypassing the encoder and using an amp is one way to get around the translucent bar issue if your system is experiencing it. I would say about 1 in 4 minis I RGB mod for people have the problem, not all do though.

My mini did not have the translucent bar issue so it was straight wired. My 1-Chip however did so it has been RGB bypassed with a THS-7314. We really should get back on topic. If you have more SNES comments or questions PM me or the ones you are replying to. This is getting far off topic.

[Josh128]

I was playing some Kid Icarus this morning, and I'm just amazed at the clarity of the RGB output. With the jailbars cleared, I have to say that the output of my NES is probably the cleanest of all my RGB modded systems. While all of them look great (SNES 1,2, Genesis 1, N64, Dreamcast), I think the NES may take the crown, as there is nary the slightest waver or shimmer in any image, regardless of the color.

On my plasma, the contrast of the colors over the black backgrounds in many of the stages looks particularly great. It looks like it could be native HDMI output. The image easily ties or bests any NES emulator I have ever hooked to my plasma, because of both the crispness of the signal and the way my set handles 240p.

One thing Im curious to know is if anyone has installed a NESRGB, had it working well, then have a failure or malfunction. Not counting the Altera firmware issue, has an installation gone south for anyone after a while of functioning perfectly?

[RGB32E]

Any word on the new program/firmware (>1.3)?

[evil_ash_xero]

I was playing some Kid Icarus this morning, and I'm just amazed at the clarity of the RGB output. With the jailbars cleared, I have to say that the output of my NES is probably the cleanest of all my RGB modded systems. While all of them look great (SNES 1,2, Genesis 1, N64, Dreamcast), I think the NES may take the crown, as there is nary the slightest waver or shimmer in any image, regardless of the color.

I kind of wish I had gone into this fresh. But I have been using emulators on my Wii, so I've seen all these games looking good already. And with no flicker!

[leonk]

I was playing some Kid Icarus this morning, and I'm just amazed at the clarity of the RGB output. With the jailbars cleared, I have to say that the output of my NES is probably the cleanest of all my RGB modded systems. While all of them look great (SNES 1,2, Genesis 1, N64, Dreamcast), I think the NES may take the crown, as there is nary the slightest waver or shimmer in any image, regardless of the color.

I kind of wish I had gone into this fresh. But I have been using emulators on my Wii, so I've seen all these games looking good already. And with no flicker!

The NESRGB is meant for people that appreciate playing NES games using the real NES with NES controllers. I can play all these games on my laptop using a keyboard, but it's not the same thing .. especially for those of us who grew up with these systems when we were kids.

[Josh128]

I was playing some Kid Icarus this morning, and I'm just amazed at the clarity of the RGB output. With the jailbars cleared, I have to say that the output of my NES is probably the cleanest of all my RGB modded systems. While all of them look great (SNES 1,2, Genesis 1, N64, Dreamcast), I think the NES may take the crown, as there is nary the slightest waver or shimmer in any image, regardless of the color.

I kind of wish I had gone into this fresh. But I have been using emulators on my Wii, so I've seen all these games looking good already. And with no flicker!

The NESRGB is meant for people that appreciate playing NES games using the real NES with NES controllers. I can play all these games on my laptop using a keyboard, but it's not the same thing .. especially for those of us who grew up with these systems when we were kids.

Exactly. Isn't it curious that with emulators and *unlimited* roms many people (including me) find themselves tinkering with with settings etc. more than they do playing actual games. Ive fiddled with emulators from the time they started becoming widely available and compatible and thought they were the greatest thing ever (they ARE cool, no doubt), but of all the games Ive booted on them, Ive probably actually played through less games than I can count on my fingers.

Its different on real systems (especially ones you grew up with). I find myself actually playing and enjoying the games rather than fiddling with resolutions/settings/etc.

[robneal81]

Its different on real systems (especially ones you grew up with). I find myself actually playing and enjoying the games rather than fiddling with resolutions/settings/etc.

I couldn't agree more. I hope Tim sticks with this and releases RGB mods for more systems as time goes on. GBA, Atari 2600...pretty much any system that doesn't have native RGB-out.

[mvsfan]

I dont really think a mod for rgb on a 2600 is nessecary. I have an s-video modded 2600 and its about as perfect as you need to get for a 2600.

everything is nice and clear.

with the type of graphics that the 2600 produces its not nessecary to go any better than svideo.

now that the nesrgb is out i would like to see tim make those jamma interface boards again, with a nes controller add on.

[Elrinth]

During desoldering of PPU the pin padcircle on 13 and 14 were destroyed on the bottom of the board, I would like to know where they go on a sharp twin famicom.
It says CE and EXT0 here: http://www.raphnet.net/electronique/nes_vs/nes_cpu.png
Do I understand it right if pin 13 of PPU goes to A0 and pin 5 on 74LS139 (U3A). Where is A0?
Also where is EXT0?

[keropi]

Any word on the new program/firmware (>1.3)?

wondering the same... I still keep the famicom open waiting to upgrade

[ApolloBoy]

Atari 2600...pretty much any system that doesn't have native RGB-out.

Pretty sure it's impossible to get RGB output from a 2600. The TIA chip in the 2600 outputs an analog chroma signal and three digital luma signals (which have to be combined in a DAC with the sync signal to get analog luma) so there's no way you can have RGB.

[zakruowrath]

Atari 2600...pretty much any system that doesn't have native RGB-out.

Pretty sure it's impossible to get RGB output from a 2600. The TIA chip in the 2600 outputs an analog chroma signal and three digital luma signals (which have to be combined in a DAC with the sync signal to get analog luma) so there's no way you can have RGB.

Unless someone finds a way to interpret address and data lines from the CPU, RAM/I-O Timer (6532) and TIA and/or just rebuild the TIA all together in a FPGA and output RGB that way, but I do agree with mvsfan above, S-Video is crystal clear for the type of graphics the Atari 2600 produces.

Not to mention why do it to the 2600, when you can do it to the 7800. You would knock two systems out with one stone since the 7800 is backwards compatible because of the TIA. However since the 7800 uses a different "GPU" (MARIA) for its graphics, one would have to build something to replace both the TIA and MARIA.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Any word about what additional features are planned for the 3rd batch? I'm particularly interested in expansion audio being built-in to the NES RGB PPU. I've heard a few indirect mentions of it being added in the 3rd batch, but nothing concrete. Also, any word about when the 3rd batch will be manufactured?

[robneal81]

Unless someone finds a way to interpret address and data lines from the CPU, RAM/I-O Timer (6532) and TIA and/or just rebuild the TIA all together in a FPGA and output RGB that way, but I do agree with mvsfan above, S-Video is crystal clear for the type of graphics the Atari 2600 produces.

I agree that it wouldn't be a picture quality improvement, but it would be easier to route all my consoles through one RGB switch, instead of having one odd console on S-Video. Sorry to get off-topic...


I do have a NESRGB-related question though. Awhile back, Skips posted a great guide on how to connect the Famicom expansion audio through the NESRGB:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 28#p973428

I apologize if this is a stupid question, but can anyone who's done this confirm: Is that cable (from pin 9) soldered to both resistors in that picture? Just pin 9, through a 22k resistor, into that spot, soldered to both?

http://i.imgur.com/J4gJLuC.jpg

[ApolloBoy]

Just pin 9, through a 22k resistor, into that spot, soldered to both?

Yes.

Also, I just got my second NESRGB today and it has the 1.4 firmware. One other thing I noticed is that Tim's now including a small ON-OFF-ON switch; I believe Tim said earlier in this thread that the 1.4 firmware allows you to use such a switch to select between the three different palettes. Once I get through installing it in my top loader I'll report back.

[robneal81]

Yes.

Thanks!

[CkRtech]

I ordered an ON-ON-ON switch from jameco with my last order from them and wired it up a few days ago. Seems to work quite well and is easier to mount than the slide switch (love my dremel, but drilling is less of an ordeal). I elected to go with the three palette selection option (over say, the option to switch off RGB mode).

I also acquired a shielded MD8 cable that seems to be a lot better than the one I was previously using and reported in this thread. I still can see some interference when I get up close to the TV, but the wires/plug/etc are also still hanging out of the console.

btw - Do you guys tend to do anything internally for shielding your signals at the panel mount location, or did you just drill a hole, glue it in there, and solder the wires to the provided mini-DIN PCB?

[keropi]

^ can't say I ever bothered to shield internal wires in a retro console - I have thought about that too - but then I also thought that the signals travel on pcb tracks on the machine without any shielding as well... so I just try to put them on the side, not close to other components (as possible as it is) and even route them outside the RF shielding if there is one. Worked well so far in all major consoles when such wires are needed (PCE, N64, the famicom with nesrgb, sms2...) with normal scart enabled tvs that are common in EU (not PVMs or ones with filters or expensive internals).
Every time it's the external cable that makes the difference....

[evil_ash_xero]

I was playing some Kid Icarus this morning, and I'm just amazed at the clarity of the RGB output. With the jailbars cleared, I have to say that the output of my NES is probably the cleanest of all my RGB modded systems. While all of them look great (SNES 1,2, Genesis 1, N64, Dreamcast), I think the NES may take the crown, as there is nary the slightest waver or shimmer in any image, regardless of the color.

I kind of wish I had gone into this fresh. But I have been using emulators on my Wii, so I've seen all these games looking good already. And with no flicker!

The NESRGB is meant for people that appreciate playing NES games using the real NES with NES controllers. I can play all these games on my laptop using a keyboard, but it's not the same thing .. especially for those of us who grew up with these systems when we were kids.

I grew up with NES (I'm 37). I had just forgotten about the flicker. And using emulators made me forget it even more. It's not the end of the world or anything. Just interesting to watch hardware limitations. But playing these on the Wii, with an emulator, on a CRT...well, they look pretty good. So, I'm not getting the "seeing the games through new eyes" thing that a lot of folks here are. And I wish I was.
Now one thing I didn't forget was how unreliable a front loader was. That's something I never want to go through again.

But yes, this board is great, and I love playing these games on my top loader, with the awesome dog bone controller. Good times.