Dreamcast 480p + XRGB-mini. is it possible?

[baaq]

hello everyone

i managed to get all my systems hooked to the XRGB-mini except the Dreamcast (which is my recent favorite) but unfortunately the XRGB-mini doesn't have a VGA port as you all now.

after reading in this forum i found multiple ways around this problem (hanzo+UMSA). but doesn't that give me 240p? i want 480p.

how do i get a dreamcast 480p signal upscaled to 1080p with scanlines? do i have to buy an XRGB3? can the XRGB3 output HDMI?

i thought of buying one of those VGA to HDMI converters then feed it to the XRGB-mini but everyone says its crap and it stretches the image

does 15khz=240p? and 31khz=480p? if so then why doesn't everyone refer to them so, and if not can someone give me a link with a good explanation of the 2?

thanks for all your help!

[darcagn]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 41#p992941

[BuckoA51]

after reading in this forum i found multiple ways around this problem (hanzo+UMSA). but doesn't that give me 240p? i want 480p.

Why would that give you 240p?? UMSA, Hanzo etc aren't up/downscalers, you get out what you put in.

[baaq]

after reading in this forum i found multiple ways around this problem (hanzo+UMSA). but doesn't that give me 240p? i want 480p.

Why would that give you 240p?? UMSA, Hanzo etc aren't up/downscalers, you get out what you put in.

"Using UMSA means that a 15 Khz input signal is needed. Make sure your device is prepared to output 15Khz.
Q: So I`ve plugged a 31Khz VGA graphic card to the UMSA. I don't see a picture. Why?
A : UMSA only accepts 15Khz. Use Soft15Khz."
http://arcadeforge.net/UMSA/UMSA-Ultima ... f4b41b6ac5

[BuckoA51]

UMSA actually just passes through whatever you feed it, just most devices don't accept 31khz on SCART. Feed it 31khz/480p that's what you get on the output. If your device can handle it (like the Mini can) it will work just fine.

[HydrogLox]

how do i get a dreamcast 480p signal upscaled to 1080p with scanlines?

It depends if you intend to exclusively use the DC in VGA (31kHz/480p) mode. Then you would probably be better off bypassing the XRGB-Mini altogether (its 720p mode it preferred for scanlines - so the scanlines will have to come from the Hanzo instead). If your HDMI display doesn't have a VGA input simply use a VGA to HDMI Converter - just make sure that it doesn't scale the image, i.e. it outputs 480p on the HDMI side (though apparently there are some HDMI displays that don't even support that anymore) and leave the scaling to the display.

There are some DC games that don't support (31kHz/480p) even with the VGA Box switch trick - those you would want to run through the XRGB-Mini. The UMSA's only job is to combine the separate VSYNC/HSYNC from the Kuro/Hanzo into a CSYNC for the XRGB-Mini. And as was already mentioned the UMSA will do that for both 15kHz and 31kHz signals - so it works in (31kHz/480p) mode as well (when I tried it I got a white line on one side of the screen - didn't spend much time fiddling with it though).

Beharius will also be making the Kenzei - again it simply is a sync combiner (for both 15KHz or 31kHz video signals). From the picture I would guess that it takes the output (RGB/VGA+Audio) from the Kuro/Hanzo and adapts it to a Euro SCART connector or a set of RCA jacks for Red, Green, Blue Video, CSYNC and a 3.5mm audio jack.

[BuckoA51]

It depends if you intend to exclusively use the DC in VGA (31kHz/480p) mode. Then you would probably be better off bypassing the XRGB-Mini altogether

That isn't the case. Please read http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Dreamcast

its 720p mode it preferred for scanlines - so the scanlines will have to come from the Hanzo instead

You're confusing input with output. The Mini can add scanlines to 480p input just fine.

There are some DC games that don't support (31kHz/480p) even with the VGA Box switch trick

The VGA box switch trick outputs both 240p and 480p that's the whole point of it, so you can have one cable for both 15khz and 31khz. All games will work with this.

[HydrogLox]

That isn't the case. Please read http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Dreamcast

New Framemeister users often ask if they should use a VGA to HDMI adaptor to connect the Dreamcast. This is not recommended. While this may seem the most simple way to connect the console, in practice this never produces results as good as the above method and introduces many other potential problems.

All I can say is that I tried mini with UMSA, mini with Audio Authority 9A60A, non-scaling VGA to HDMI (no-mini) and direct VGA. I didn't feel that the mini added much value in the (31kHz/480p) scenario - the 15kHz scenario is a different matter.

You're confusing input with output. The Mini can add scanlines to 480p input just fine.

Maybe the wiki needs to be updated then:

If you like scanline emulation then 720p and 480p are the feasible output modes, with 720p generally being the best choice (the output at 480p is very soft by comparison). If you don't care about scanlines then feel free to set 1080p as the output mode but do be careful to observe the aforementioned first rule.

The VGA box switch trick outputs both 240p and 480p that's the whole point of it, so you can have one cable for both 15khz and 31khz. All games will work with this.

Just because there is a 480p signal doesn't mean the output is desirable - for example 480p Gunbird 2 (after the switch trick) is absolutely awful even if it technically "works" and to say that Bangai-O "works" (somewhere in its tiny little corner) is a stretch. Also the switch trick's intent is to always play in 31kHz - the 15kHz/Standard setting is simply used to bypass the compatibility check on the Dreamcast. However a Hanzo + UMSA/Kenzei + XRGB-Mini setup will give you access to using the Dreamcast in both 15kHz and 31kHz modes (apparently there is one DC game that only supports Standard mode - so for that one you would still have to haul out the composite AV cable).

[BuckoA51]

Maybe the wiki needs to be updated then:

What's not clear? You can input 480p from the Dreamcast and output at either 480p with/without scanlines or 720p with/without scanlines or 1080p without scanlines

Just because there is a 480p signal doesn't mean the output is desirable - for example 480p Gunbird 2 (after the switch trick) is absolutely awful even if it technically "works" and to say that Bangai-O "works" (somewhere in its tiny little corner) is a stretch. Also the switch trick's intent is to always play in 31kHz - the 15kHz/Standard setting is simply used to bypass the compatibility check on the Dreamcast. However a Hanzo + UMSA/Kenzei + XRGB-Mini setup will give you access to using the Dreamcast in both 15kHz and 31kHz modes (apparently there is one DC game that only supports Standard mode - so for that one you would still have to haul out the composite AV cable).

I think you're misunderstanding what the switch does (or I'm misunderstanding what you mean by VGA box switch trick). If you add the 15khz switch to the Dreamcast box (as described here:- http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1870) you unlock true 15khz output from the DC's VGA cable. By that I mean the signal is identical to if you had attached a SCART cable instead (when the switch is engaged). Do not confuse this technique with the trick that some boot discs can do that force 240p/15khz games into 480p/31khz, that's not the point of it at all.

[HydrogLox]

What's not clear? You can input 480p from the Dreamcast and output at either 480p with/without scanlines or 720p with/without scanlines or 1080p without scanlines.

The way I read it - if you have a 1080p display don't emulate scanlines with the mini. With a 1080p display the mini should be set to output 1080p. Selecting any other resolution will likely have undesirable consequences downstream. If I set the mini to output 720p to get scanlines against a 1080p display the display's scaler is going to get involved, adding lag and scaling on top of what the mini does (unless it supports some weird direct window boxed 720p). When I use the mini I don't want anymore additional processing downstream.

(or I'm misunderstanding what you mean by VGA box switch trick).

The VGA box switch trick outputs both 240p and 480p that's the whole point of it, so you can have one cable for both 15khz and 31khz. All games will work with this.

Now it is clear to me that I misunderstood you - however in this context "VGA box switch trick" is too close to the Dreamcast VGA trick. What you are referring to is more of a "mod" than a "trick" - so something like "VGA box RGB switch mod" would have been clearer. Also the opening post mentions the Hanzo which doesn't need the RGB switch mod - but the 15kHz/31kHz switch is still used for the "Dreamcast VGA trick".

[Fudoh]

The way I read it - if you have a 1080p display don't emulate scanlines with the mini.

not exactly. I would assume that all TVs sold these days are 1080p, so where would be the point to that ?

If you have a Mini and you want proper scanlines, set the Mini to 720p output. It doesn't matter if your display rescales the Mini's output. It even makes the scanlines look considerably better. Just compare all those snapshots and videos out there of 1080p displays to a real 720p capture of the Mini's output.

I have yet to see any display that adds extra lag for 720p processing compared to 1080p. I would say that's a myth.

[BuckoA51]

I have yet to see any display that adds extra lag for 720p processing compared to 1080p. I would say that's a myth.

Indeed this seems consistent with my tests with leo's lag tester too.