What do you think of danmaku/manic shooters without focus?

[Squire Grooktook]

Lately I've been playing a lot of games like Dimahoo/Mars Matrix/Cho Ren Sha 68k that have small hitboxes and lots of bullets but don't have any focus mode or speed control function for dense pattern maneuvering.

Do you think this is bad design or legitimate?

On one hand, a lot of these games don't really have or need the kind of dense patterns that require focus and seem to design patterns that encourage high mobility a lot, and I also really do like how the character/ship you pick will completely change the way you have to dodge and move for everything.

On the other hand though, it annoys me when a dense/slow pattern finally does show up and ends up being difficult to dodge even though it's easy to sight read just because it requires a lot more tap dodging than would be required with a focus button.

[BobbyNewmarkiii]

Mars Matrix is the only game of those that I have played in earnest, and, to my mind, the lack of a slower movement control is just part of that game's character. Sure it is a but harder as a result, but that's the kind of game it is.

[Squire Grooktook]

I actually really do like the frantic high speed dodging, though I think that also goes to the general design of the patterns. Like for example, one time I tried playing a fairly difficult section of Ginga Force using the engine that has slow and high speed, and switched between them for a pseudo focus. It ended up being waaaay harder and more uncomfortable than just staying at high speed all the time. Same applies if you try to play certain Cho Ren Sha 68k stages using the secret config for a slower ship.

Still, I think the question is, is it better to give players the option at least to slow? Is it better game design to always have the option just in case? Or if you're trying to be a manic shooter, does a slow button just confuse things? If they were to remake these games now, would you prefer them to add a focus button or would that ruin the feel of the game?

[Edge]

Still, I think the question is, is it better to give players the option at least to slow? Is it better game design to always have the option just in case? Or if you're trying to be a manic shooter, does a slow button just confuse things? If they were to remake these games now, would you prefer them to add a focus button or would that ruin the feel of the game?

I don't think every game needs a focus button. Like you mentioned it depends on how the bullet patterns and the whole game is designed. Dangun Feveron is also a nice example of a game with only high speed dodging. The high speed fits the game perfectly and the dodging is very fun. There is no need for a focus button in this game. I don't think every shmup would be better with a focus button.

[ptoing]

None of the YGW games have focus either (PS has speed control tho) and they play just fine.
I think CRS is perfectly fine the way it is as well. One thing to take into consideration with CRS is that it is a good deal faster on PC than on it's original hardware on which it just runs with 55fps instead of 60.

Either way, you can design a game to allow tap dodging as well as fast movement, without a focus mode. It can just be coded so that the very first few frames when you start moving your movement is slower. I think Xeno Figthers does this and it works very nicely.

[Cagar]

Still, I think the question is, is it better to give players the option at least to slow? Is it better game design to always have the option just in case? Or if you're trying to be a manic shooter, does a slow button just confuse things? If they were to remake these games now, would you prefer them to add a focus button or would that ruin the feel of the game?

Welp, I still can't grasp the core question, feels absurd
Why would it be 'bad design' to not have a focus-button?
I wouldn't put a focus button for those games you mentioned because clearly the game was intended/designed to not have one.


????

[Squire Grooktook]

Maybe more like "is it better to always give players the freedom to choose, in case something (let's say, a random bullet spray spits out a dense patter) comes up where it might be useful? Or is it better to keep the design of the game simple and commit to one type of dodging?

[ptoing]

I think people should design their games to feel like they intend. MMP for example would feel weird if it had a focus button, imo. Same goes for other games that do not have one.

[Jeneki]

I don't mind lack of speed control in Mars Matrix. The way most of the bullet patterns form, it seems more about navigating around clumps of bullets, instead of squeezing through random splatter.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Maybe more like "is it better to always give players the freedom to choose, in case something (let's say, a random bullet spray spits out a dense patter) comes up where it might be useful? Or is it better to keep the design of the game simple and commit to one type of dodging?

It always depends on the game itself. Cho Ren Sha for instance has very large bullets and is characterized not so much by dense danmaku, but fairly fast barrages. The scoring trick of moving inside powerup rings would also be trivially easy if you had a slowdown button to stay inside the ring.

Then there's Mushi Futari - Reco Abnormal is amazingly fun to use because her movement speed functions opposite to what you'd expect. It's not conventional, sure, but it's what makes it unique and fun.

Slowdown is a very nice benefit, but I don't think not having it automatically makes a game worse, the game and its controls should always be designed around each other.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

I don't mind, that is as long as I can find a ship with a fairly suitable move speed. If the game has no focus and the only speed options are too fast or too slow I probably won't stick at it. Not necessarily bad design per se but not something that I personally am willing to spend much time with.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm glad to hear the responses this has gotten, I was under the impression that many people would think that this was outdated design or something. Personally I really love the dodging in these games.