NESRGB board available now

[mickcris]

I don't mean to derail this thread into a tangent, but I've always wondered - what's the big allure of the Framemeister? I mean, we're already going RGB, which is pretty much as badass high-quality as we can get, right? From what research I've done on the thing, its draw seems to be relegated to its (admittedly) amazing ability to accurately upscale lower-quality video sources (I've seen videos of it doing wonders with composite), and the addition of scanlines.

Now, I'm by no means a video purist, but I happen not to like scanlines myself, and in my setup, my NES, SNES, N64, Master System, Genesis, and Saturn are all connected to an Automatic SCART selector switch, which runs into a SCART-to-HDMI converter, which shoots right into my 46" Samsung.

It looks bloody brilliant, and I have a seriously difficult time imagining it being any better, so...

The framemiester is a scart to HDMI covertor. Just one that probably has more options (and possibly better picture output) than the one you are using.

If you haven't read this page yet, you should:
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

[TheRetromancer]

I've read that page, and ultimately, I wind up shrugging. I suppose I'm just not that much of a videophile. I've invested in getting RGB from my consoles here in NTSCland, and I think it looks fantastic (except for the N64 - RGB is way better than composite, but the modded N64 just doesn't look fantastic. Crosshatching is pretty rotten, so unless I've done something horribly wrong in my mod, I tend to stick with an emulator), but I personally don't see a lot of value, personally speaking, in spending $350 to attain what appears to me to be a rather insignificant step up.

Who knows? If I witnessed it in person, I might feel differently.

And now back to your regularly scheduled RGB awesomeness...

[eightbitminiboss]

I've read that page, and ultimately, I wind up shrugging. I suppose I'm just not that much of a videophile. I've invested in getting RGB from my consoles here in NTSCland, and I think it looks fantastic (except for the N64 - RGB is way better than composite, but the modded N64 just doesn't look fantastic. Crosshatching is pretty rotten, so unless I've done something horribly wrong in my mod, I tend to stick with an emulator), but I personally don't see a lot of value, personally speaking, in spending $350 to attain what appears to me to be a rather insignificant step up.

Who knows? If I witnessed it in person, I might feel differently.

And now back to your regularly scheduled RGB awesomeness...

You can fix the crosshatching on the N64. Listed here under the "Update" section toward the bottom. I did it for my N64 and made it look a lot better.

[opt2not]

I've read that page, and ultimately, I wind up shrugging. I suppose I'm just not that much of a videophile. I've invested in getting RGB from my consoles here in NTSCland, and I think it looks fantastic (except for the N64 - RGB is way better than composite, but the modded N64 just doesn't look fantastic. Crosshatching is pretty rotten, so unless I've done something horribly wrong in my mod, I tend to stick with an emulator), but I personally don't see a lot of value, personally speaking, in spending $350 to attain what appears to me to be a rather insignificant step up.

Who knows? If I witnessed it in person, I might feel differently.

And now back to your regularly scheduled RGB awesomeness...

Yeah, you gotta see it in person.
I was born in the 70's, so to me, these old games without scanlines just look wrong to me. I also don't play the N64 (I didn't start liking 3D games till the PS2), so for me it's all 8 and 16bit gaming through the framemeister when I feel like playing on a screen bigger than 20". I'm working on a supergun right now as well, to run arcade boards through it too.

But I guess I am a videophile, since I invested in the top-of-the-line scaler, RGB mods, and own 2 PVM along with my mini-framemeister!
I've tried other cheaper scalers, and while the picture was pretty good, I do see a difference in quality from my framemeister. Plus the framemeister has a ton of options to fiddle with to get that perfect image.

[viletim]

I've got a reply from Bisqwit , here is some tech info for Tim, maybe it helps:

Yes, one potential oddity is that the PPU transfer code depends on writes to $2006 ignoring the top 2 bits of the address. I.e. it assumes that an address $BF00 will be interpreted as $3F00, as the PPU memory address is 14-bit indeed. This is true for all versions of the NES known to me so far. Yet, this seems like the strongest candidate cause. Other candidates are dependence on proper palette mirroring, but failing to handle that properly would cause problems in more games.

Well done. I'm treating the address as a 16 bit value. Of course, it should be 14 bit. It seems very few games access the palette through mirror addresses in practice.

[leonk]

I've got a reply from Bisqwit , here is some tech info for Tim, maybe it helps:

Yes, one potential oddity is that the PPU transfer code depends on writes to $2006 ignoring the top 2 bits of the address. I.e. it assumes that an address $BF00 will be interpreted as $3F00, as the PPU memory address is 14-bit indeed. This is true for all versions of the NES known to me so far. Yet, this seems like the strongest candidate cause. Other candidates are dependence on proper palette mirroring, but failing to handle that properly would cause problems in more games.

Well done. I'm treating the address as a 16 bit value. Of course, it should be 14 bit. It seems very few games access the palette through mirror addresses in practice.

Will we have a 1.4 firmware to fix this?

[viletim]

Will we have a 1.4 firmware to fix this? ;)

Yes, after testing.

[viletim]

Will we have a 1.4 firmware to fix this? ;)

Yes, after testing.

Result:

Reducing the palette area address decoding from 16 to 14 bits fixes the colours on the Castlevania 2 Bisqwit version.

Unfortunately for Duck Maze fans, the behavior of this game is unchanged. Colours in Orb 3D and Morskoy Boy (the other two known games with problems) are also still wrong.

[leonk]

Hi Tim. I got an original NESRGB .. Are 1.3+ versions compatible with it? I'm going to source my own blaster and wanted to confirm first.

[TheRetromancer]

Will we have a 1.4 firmware to fix this?

Yes, after testing.

Result:

Reducing the palette area address decoding from 16 to 14 bits fixes the colours on the Castlevania 2 Bisqwit version.

Unfortunately for Duck Maze fans, the behavior of this game is unchanged. Colours in Orb 3D and Morskoy Boy (the other two known games with problems) are also still wrong.

Well, hot damn. Talk about community support coming through! I have never seen that kind of open cooperation - let alone such a quick turnaround for a solution. Wish this happened a lot more often.

[TheRetromancer]

You can fix the crosshatching on the N64. Listed here under the "Update" section toward the bottom. I did it for my N64 and made it look a lot better.

Okay, I did it, and it improves like mad...but it introduces a new problem. I'm using the retro_console_accessories cable, and I have it plugged into a Bandridge Scart Auto Switch, going to a CVID BG-460 SCART-to-HDMI upscaler.

Now that I've cut the Y trace and connected the Y and V pins, when I go from the cable into the Switch, the video is the right brightness, but it jumps on bright screens like there's a Sync problem. When I go directly into the Upscaler, there's no jumping, but the video is too bright. I would prefer to send the video through my switch - is there a fix that you could direct me to?

EDIT: Pfft. I'm an idiot. I just realised that I was using the Rev 04 motherboard. I performed the RGB mod, complete with cut job, on a Rev 03 and jumped a wire from the Sync (AV pin 3) to V (AV Pin 9). All solved. From what I can determine, I would either need to rebuild the Sync circuit from the Rev 03 on the Rev 04, or use a PAL SNES RGB SCART (too many acroynms!) cable...or mod the retro_console_cable to match a PAL output...which would render it useless for my NESRGB!

I promise I'm done with stupid, off-topic questions. Props unto thee, eightbitminiboss. Should you ever be in the vicinity of Norton Shores, MI, I shall buy you a drink.

[keropi]

Hi Tim. I got an original NESRGB .. Are 1.3+ versions compatible with it? I'm going to source my own blaster and wanted to confirm first.

I actually run a v2 NESRGB with replaced SRAM and flashed to 1.3 (original was 1.0 with the new sram chip that caused the problems) and it works like the original... at least at anything I threw at it
I flashed it in case it improves compatibility with my lcd screens and in the end I left it at 1.3

Also glad the nesrgb is improving

edit: regarding the b/w games Bisqwit commented that:

Re: Black/White, there's a setting in the PPU which controls black/white rendering. Maybe he should check it. Then again, he probably knows all about it already.

maybe it was just forgotten? worth a shot to quote him here

[viletim]

Hi Tim. I got an original NESRGB .. Are 1.3+ versions compatible with it? I'm going to source my own blaster and wanted to confirm first.

Yes, all NESRGB boards are the same hardware. Only the RAM chip is different. Version 1.3 (and above) will work with all boards.

Also glad the nesrgb is improving :)

edit: regarding the b/w games Bisqwit commented that:

Re: Black/White, there's a setting in the PPU which controls black/white rendering. Maybe he should check it. Then again, he probably knows all about it already.

maybe it was just forgotten? worth a shot to quote him here :D

The greyscale feature is implemented in the NESRGB. These games do not appear to use it, however.

I don't consider fixing these games to be a high priority at the moment. I have a flash cartridge on order and will look into it again when it shows up. Without being able to run the offending games myself, there's little I can do to isolate the problem.

Version 1.4 will be released in a few days. It will fix aforementioned palette address bug that makes the intro in the Castlevania 2 hack look funny. I will also change the palette selection logic. This will make it possible to select between three palettes with an ordinary on-off-on toggle switch. It will still be compatible with the four position slide switch method (which I still think is the best choice for the front loader), as well as the on-on-on switch that I have been including recently. I'll write more about this later.

Code: Select all

V1.0,1.3
123   PALETTE
000 - off
001 - off
010 - off
011 - garish
100 - off
101 - improved
110 - natural
111 - off

V1.4+
123   PALETTE
000 - off
001 - off
010 - garish
011 - garish
100 - improved
101 - improved
110 - natural
111 - off

[Jeppen]

I've read that page, and ultimately, I wind up shrugging. I suppose I'm just not that much of a videophile. I've invested in getting RGB from my consoles here in NTSCland, and I think it looks fantastic (except for the N64 - RGB is way better than composite, but the modded N64 just doesn't look fantastic. Crosshatching is pretty rotten, so unless I've done something horribly wrong in my mod, I tend to stick with an emulator), but I personally don't see a lot of value, personally speaking, in spending $350 to attain what appears to me to be a rather insignificant step up.

Who knows? If I witnessed it in person, I might feel differently.

And now back to your regularly scheduled RGB awesomeness...

If you're happy with what you got, don't spend a dime more on upgrading it.

I believe we all spend way too much hard earned money on things that in the end does more for our egos than the actual pic quality.
Though i own a framemeister haha, but that was only because i had no clue what to get, so i got the thing that reviews said will give a great result.

[ccovell]

When the picture is scrolling up or down the picture doesn't really load properly.
I've noticed this in all of my games and don't know what to make of it.

I'm running an NESRGB PAL front loader to XRGB-mini to 46" LED TV (if it makes a difference)

A little bit of a bump, but this problem (such as it is) is a built-in limitation of the NES. NTSC NESes have the same behaviour (TVs often mask it, tho) but since PAL TVs display the entire screen of PAL NES units, there's no way to hide it.

You can easily see this by using an emulator (FCEUltra, eg.) and setting it to PAL mode:


The limitation of course stems from the fact that the NES uses 8x8 tiles, but colour information is limited to 16x16 areas, and worse, the NES has screen RAM for only 2 screens yet games need to scroll in all directions.

[opt2not]

Speaking of the framemeister, what are your guy's settings to get the NESRGB to play nice?
I am getting the NO SYNC message, but I've tried every sync level it has, to no avail.

My firmware is at 1.08, and I'm using MultiAV cables from retrogamingcables, which work well with my SNES. Should I update my firmware?

When I hooked it up to my PVM's, without the framemeister, the image from the NES is great with no problems.

My multiAV cable has a bunch of caps in the SCART head, which should be there since the caps on the NESRGB were removed. Also, my SCART to framemeister cable has in internal sync cleaner inside. The sync signal is pure sync coming out of the NESRGB, not composite. Could the sync cleaner/stripper be the problem?

Any ideas?

[CkRtech]

I am running an unmodded-NESRGB out to a 1.07a Framemeister without problems. I used TTL Sync for the sync signal. Straight 8 pin cable with no extra caps.

I assume that the sync cleaner could be your problem like you guessed. Do you have another adapter without the stripper that you can use to in order to eliminate that variable?

[Vigormortis]

Speaking of the framemeister, what are your guy's settings to get the NESRGB to play nice?
I am getting the NO SYNC message, but I've tried every sync level it has, to no avail.

My firmware is at 1.08, and I'm using MultiAV cables from retrogamingcables, which work well with my SNES. Should I update my firmware?

When I hooked it up to my PVM's, without the framemeister, the image from the NES is great with no problems.

My multiAV cable has a bunch of caps in the SCART head, which should be there since the caps on the NESRGB were removed. Also, my SCART to framemeister cable has in internal sync cleaner inside. The sync signal is pure sync coming out of the NESRGB, not composite. Could the sync cleaner/stripper be the problem?

Any ideas?

Are you running an AV Famicom or did put your own AV port in a different NES model? If you installed an AV port, don't forget to connect +5v to the appropriate pin (pin 10 on a SNES connector). You need this in order to power the sync stripper in your SCART -> Framemeister converter. If you're using an AV Famicom, then this simple fix won't be the solution because it already has +5v going to pin 10.

[mickcris]

Speaking of the framemeister, what are your guy's settings to get the NESRGB to play nice?
I am getting the NO SYNC message, but I've tried every sync level it has, to no avail.

My firmware is at 1.08, and I'm using MultiAV cables from retrogamingcables, which work well with my SNES. Should I update my firmware?

When I hooked it up to my PVM's, without the framemeister, the image from the NES is great with no problems.

My multiAV cable has a bunch of caps in the SCART head, which should be there since the caps on the NESRGB were removed. Also, my SCART to framemeister cable has in internal sync cleaner inside. The sync signal is pure sync coming out of the NESRGB, not composite. Could the sync cleaner/stripper be the problem?

Any ideas?

Probably the sync cleaner. Is the sync cleaner being powered by the console and did you connect the 5v output to the multi out connector?

[opt2not]

Probably the sync cleaner. Is the sync cleaner being powered by the console and did you connect the 5v output to the multi out connector?

Are you running an AV Famicom or did put your own AV port in a different NES model? If you installed an AV port, don't forget to connect +5v to the appropriate pin (pin 10 on a SNES connector). You need this in order to power the sync stripper in your SCART -> Framemeister converter. If you're using an AV Famicom, then this simple fix won't be the solution because it already has +5v going to pin 10.

Yup, that was it! I didn't have the 5v being fed through the MultiAV port.
I connected a wire between the 5v pad on the NESRGB and pin-10 of the MultiAV port. Tested on the framemeister, and PVM's and it all works great.

Thanks all!

[leonk]

Anyone else using the framemeister here? From what I read, and saw on youTube, it does not need a sync stripper. In fact, if you feed it the pure sync (CS# pin) then it should work fine.

Isn't the sync stripper meant to be used as an IC that converts V to CS# for display devices that can't get sync out of V?

[mickcris]

Anyone else using the framemeister here? From what I read, and saw on youTube, it does not need a sync stripper. In fact, if you feed it the pure sync (CS# pin) then it should work fine.

Isn't the sync stripper meant to be used as an IC that converts V to CS# for display devices that can't get sync out of V?

From my understanding, before firmware 1.06 (I think) there was no way to adjust the sync level. Some consoles that were using composite video as sync would not work as a result. Now that there is a sync level adjustment, there probably is no need for a sync stripper. The people that are selling the euro scart to xrgb-mini cables with the sync stripper inside should probably stop selling them (or explain better that they probably are not needed anymore), as they seem to be causing more issues than they are helping.

[Elrinth]

Regarding Framemeister (latest firmware 1.10):
I also wanna say that autosync will NOT work in all cases. My PAL SNES was not detected for example. I had to turn off autosync and turn down the sync level very low. Mega Drive has to go the other way.

[Jeppen]

When the picture is scrolling up or down the picture doesn't really load properly.
I've noticed this in all of my games and don't know what to make of it.

I'm running an NESRGB PAL front loader to XRGB-mini to 46" LED TV (if it makes a difference)

A little bit of a bump, but this problem (such as it is) is a built-in limitation of the NES. NTSC NESes have the same behaviour (TVs often mask it, tho) but since PAL TVs display the entire screen of PAL NES units, there's no way to hide it.

You can easily see this by using an emulator (FCEUltra, eg.) and setting it to PAL mode:


The limitation of course stems from the fact that the NES uses 8x8 tiles, but colour information is limited to 16x16 areas, and worse, the NES has screen RAM for only 2 screens yet games need to scroll in all directions.

Thanks!!! That was really interesting! I'm zooming in on the TV atm and it works great.
(it seems to save on each input so i don't need to redo it everytime)

Anyone else using the framemeister here? From what I read, and saw on youTube, it does not need a sync stripper. In fact, if you feed it the pure sync (CS# pin) then it should work fine.

This is what i did and it works fine on my framemeister.

[opt2not]

leonk and I have been conversing about this framemeister-mini stuff, and I've decided I'm going to remove the 5v line and the sync-stripper in my setup. It's not needed since the newest firmware on the Mini has the sync level adjustment settings, and I don't want to introduce any future potential problems.

The reason why i wasn't getting video initially is because I wasn't feeding the sync-stripper any power, so it was just acting as a big resistor, stopping sync completely. The correct way to is to not have the sync stripper in the first place, and just feed the raw-sync (CS#) to my Mini.
At the moment with the sync-stripper powered, it's acting as a pass-through device. But the potential future problems are:
1. the sync-stripper IC can fail
2. I now have 5v power running next to analogue video/audio signal - potential for introducing noise
3. added cost of the cable - if all I Nintendo devices (NES and newer) can work without the sync stripper - I should rid of it

Luckily I have 2 SCART->Framemeister cables so I can have one with the sync-stripper installed, and one without, in case I need it down-the-line.

[ApolloBoy]

The correct way to is to not have the sync stripper in the first place, and just feed the raw-sync (CS#) to my Mini.

Not sure why you were messing around with a sync stripper to start with considering the NESRGB has a perfectly good sync signal available.

[opt2not]

It's because it was already installed into my SCART cable I got from retrogamingcables. Plus, I made the decision to wire up the 5v line because I already had my NES' disassembled for flashing...figured while I was in there...

[XianXi]

It looks like the version that Tim supplied is Quartus II version 11.1.

The Altera website currently has a version 13.1. There is a free version and a licensed version, and the licensed version gives you a 30 day trial.

https://www.altera.com/download/sw/dnl-sw-index.jsp

Newer isn't always better, but perhaps you could give version 13.1 a try. You may need to cleanse your system of 11.1 prior to installing 13.1 - I am not certain. I haven't received a Blaster yet, so I can only make suggestions based on what I see on the web.

Oh man this was so promising! Thank you! The 13.1 programmer that came with the free Web Edition bundle can see the USB Blaster just fine! But now I'm getting a new error message.

Code: Select all

Info (209060): Started Programmer operation at Thu Jan 30 22:24:25 2014
Error (209040): Can't access JTAG chain
Error (209053): Unexpected error in JTAG server -- error code 44
Error (209012): Operation failed
Info (209061): Ended Programmer operation at Thu Jan 30 22:24:25 2014

More fiddling. But it certainly seems like Windows 7 users need the newer software and drivers than what Tim provided.

Update: Okay, I get the exact same error message when I unplug the USB Blaster from the board so it looks like my custom connector needs work.

Update 2: I've check and recheck the connections and as near as I can tell they're sound. Back to fiddling I guess.

Update 3: SUCCESS!!! According to this article some of the pins are powered by the target device. The NES had to be plugged in and turned on in order for the reprogramming to work. And work it did! The problem seems 100% fixed now! Though I guess people who were planning to reprogram boards before they installed them will have to find a way to power them first.

Thanks to nesfreak and CkRtech for your help. Hopefully someone else will learn from my mistakes.

I'm not having any success reprogramming this thing. I have version 13.1, I then had to manually point windows to where the driver was on the hard drive so it would then recognize the USB Blaster.

I'm at the point where it sees the Max2, open the file, check the boxes for program/configure and verify, hit start then I get the same error 44. I don't understand why this isn't working when it's working for others. I'm using vista if that means anything.

Just a couple questions that weren't clearly answered:

In what scenario for programming would I need to power on the console?

When would I need to connect pin 4 from the USB Blaster to Pin 1 of the PCB?

Do all grounds need connected on the JTAG connector on the USB blaster?

[evil_ash_xero]

It's because it was already installed into my SCART cable I got from retrogamingcables. Plus, I made the decision to wire up the 5v line because I already had my NES' disassembled for flashing...figured while I was in there...

Retro Gaming Cables...hmmm....Not a fan. No shielding.

Retro Console Accessories much better.

Too bad their names are so similar. Makes things confusing.

[mufunyo]

Retro Gaming Cables...hmmm....Not a fan. No shielding.

Why on earth would they not use shielding? Bummer, I was planning to buy from them :/