Is the Genre Seeing an Increase in Popularity?

[Laurel_McFang]

The fighting game fans bought it for the gameplay, the anime crowd bought it for the visual novel. It's like Touhou in that regard except you don't have to turn to fan fiction to make the story interesting.

Understood, it could work well and the BlazBlue VN mode is really cool it's just it didn't quite grab me. Yeah someone should give it a try.

[ACSeraph]

Shmups are known to be difficult.

This is an obvious but important point that we seem to ignore a lot.

My friends like simplistic 2D games and retro style as much as they like the new stuff, but they don't have the right personalities to play shmups. They get murdered within the first stage of any given cave game, assume it's impossible, and give up.

The casuals that make up the greater gaming populace can't understand why we would spend so much time and effort to master a game. They don't have the same drive and determination as us, at least not with regards to video games. And that's fine really, everyone has their priorities.

Let's just face it: We are the weird ones for wanting to go head to head with these games. This genre is never going appeal to normalfags, and it's never going to go mainstream. But there will always be those few in each generation of new gamers that will fall down into the rabbit hole that is shmups. I expect the genre will forever remain a small yet undying niche.

[Squire Grooktook]

Shmups are known to be difficult.

This is an obvious but important point that we seem to ignore a lot.

My friends like simplistic 2D games and retro style as much as they like the new stuff, but they don't have the right personalities to play shmups. They get murdered within the first stage of any given cave game, assume it's impossible, and give up.

The casuals that make up the greater gaming populace can't understand why we would spend so much time and effort to master a game. They don't have the same drive and determination as us, at least not with regards to video games. And that's fine really, everyone has their priorities.

Let's just face it: We are the weird ones for wanting to go head to head with these games. This genre is never going appeal to normalfags, and it's never going to go mainstream. But there will always be those few in each generation of new gamers that will fall down into the rabbit hole that is shmups. I expect the genre will forever remain a small yet undying niche.

Agreed 100%

That being said, genre awareness will fluctuate. But that niche will still always be there.

[IrishNinja]

Resogun was 2013 GOTY, so signs point to...kind of

[evil_ash_xero]

No, not at all. And if there was some "interest"(which I'm not seeing), there's nothing coming out, so it would fade pretty quick.

[Kollision]

I don't want the genre to increase in popularity, because if it does the tendency is that shmups will be dumbed down by noobs who can't stand challenge

[Captain]

Euroshmups are becoming more popular and less...well...euroshmuppy.

However non-euroshmups are still not appreciated enough and the modern euros are still not on par.

[Xyga]

Shmuppy Bird ... soon.

[Sinistar's visions]

If the Shoot em up Genre is seeing an increase in popularity, such growth would be connected to the collective efforts of the Shmup community, whether that be through community efforts (Shmup meets and get togethers), video super plays and reviews or injecting shmup culture into the larger arcade/video game arena via suggestions and insights into the genre on forums, discussions and even article write ups. Missionaries of sorts at a grass root level and of course the actions of developers which have a certain amount of say through generating and marketing demand. It's interesting to see the amount of YT Shmup efforts and those wanting to participate in growing the genre by creating video content around Shmups.

Ultimately, groups tend to generate through community efforts a burgeoning culture which develops language and symbols which allow a person to merge through multiple pathways. Brand recognition and loyalty platforms similar to one's favorite sports team, slang or coded language specific to the genre and of course common goals such as the one credit clear (ground rules). Most of this seems to be in place.

If people continue to advertise and share the genre in this growing multi media age then Shmup popularity will of course rise as people collectively share the value and worth of this genre. Because this is a niche style of gaming without large corporate sponsorship driving the demand (Fighting game community/Capcom/Madcatz), the responsibility falls on the collective shmup community itself. If there is a big enough demand and market share developed from a grass roots level, more companies will be interested in cashing in off the demographic. A seemingly dying genre brought to life.

The main obstacle to the growth of any niche platform or genre is awareness of the larger gaming public. It's a game of numbers with a ratio yet to be discovered. "One in twenty people will embrace Shmups" type example. The growth and rise in popularity depends on mining that potential waiting to be unfrozen with Seimitsu in hand.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

I would say shooting games are seeing a huge decrease in popularity. It seems like most of the time maybe only one significant shooting game will get released all year. We used to get more than that. It seems like all the prominent shooter developers have gone out of business. I blame it on not effectively marketing the games. It seems like hardly anyone knows about them. People will buy anything if it is effectively marketed. Also, the core audience is getting older and I don't think the genre is attracting new younger gamers.

[gs68]

If you mean people playing any STG at all, yes, at least moreso than the late 90's and early 2000's when the genre went into decline. If you mean the genre in general, not really.

Many people I know who do play any such games just play Touhou and don't seem interested in playing any other games in the genre. Then again knowing such people comes with being actively in the cosplay community, where anything that's single player, requires a large degree of practice to "beat", and isn't a rhythm game is not particularly popular to play, I'm not terribly surprised.

I know a few who play Deathsmiles, but getting anyone I know who isn't already a fan of the genre to play things like the R-Type series or The Tale of ALLTYNEX is a total crapshoot.

[Jeneki]

Shmups are not fucking dead.

They are just reducing rank.

[greg]

I can testify to Touhou's popularity among Japanese junior high kids, at least. I am seeing an increasing number of Touhou characters on pencil cases, pencil boards, and light novels on the desks of many of my students. I ask them, "Is she from Touhou?" The typical reaction is, "Wow, Greg-sensei! You know Touhou?" So I'm like, "Yeah, and I am more surprised that you younger kids know what Touhou is." Several of them actually play the games (mostly the boys). The girls seem to like the cute character designs. I figured that such 2D gaming would be lost on the younger crowd. I tell them I've never played the games (I hate the idea of playing games on my computer), but that I have tons of similar games (aka shmups) on my home consoles. "Oooh, sugoi ne." Before I started spotting these young Touhou fans, I figured that shmups were mostly lost on youth.

[chempop]

I'd like to see a year by year bar graph of number of new members joining this site.
I think the results would certainly have some sort of significant value to measure popularity

[ptoing]

I think it is a fair assumption that shmups and similar games like them, in terms of difficulty/approach, just appeal to certain types of personalities more than others. As such there will always be new people who like these kinda games. And yes, they more or less always were niche anyway.

[Blackbird]

Shmups weren't always niche. In the mid 80's when the arcades were at the peak of their popularity, shmups were among the most popular games around. There was even a documentary about how excited people were to play Space Invaders - not just gamers, but everyday people like salarymen. I remember reading a while back that Raiden was the last shooting game to be a huge commercial success, and that it arguably signaled the end of the golden age of arcades.

Perhaps this is because shmups offered the most immediate and exciting gaming experience in the context of the arcades, where the ability to figure out a game and get enjoyment from in within a short span of time is paramount. Shmups are superb in this regard. You can figure out how to play them instantly, but they offer a deep, addicting gratification in that they are still difficult to complete, even knowing how the controls work. With the rise of home consoles, games could be enjoyed at a much more leisurely pace, and other genres - like the narrative drive role-playing game - were perhaps more suited to the relaxed context of the living room. Arcades are lively, noisy places, full of energy, and the frenetic pace of shmups matches them, but it feels odd to be in a frenzy on your sofa. Other genres also provide a visible indication of your progress like stat gains and item accumulation. The hours you spent playing appear rewarded because you can look on the screen and see that you've gone from level 5 to level 10. Meanwhile the accumulation of skill in a shmup is largely intangible; the correlation between time investment and reward is not overt. That's my theory anyway.

[ptoing]

Well, space invaders was a very early game. Shmups have the benefit to be relatively simple in many regards. Simple collision for example. The question is how much do things like culture play into what games get played, how does availability of different genres matter, and so on. And yeah, saying that shmups always were a niche is probably not correct as such. But as far as people like on this forum goes I am sure that was more or less a smaller group. Another thing you have to take into account is novelty. Space Invaders was novel back then, nowadays videogames as a whole are not really novel anymore. Novelty can draw crowds as well.

[eatdogs]

I don't really like touhou. To me it represents what anime has become these days which is sucky. It's reply popular though, but I don't think it's because of the games themselves really. It's the fandom and merch and anime girls. It's cool to be a part of Touhou. Of course this is just me and what I perceive it to be. I don't mean to rag on anyone here who actually likes the games. It's just the mainstream fans, or what I would call mainstream. Like someone said above, some Touhou people might not ever play other shmups.

Shoot em' ups are niche and will always be. Every article I read about indie games coming out, none every really seem to mention shmups (i did see a small ign article about redux I think, or maybe ghost blade). I don't mind it really. I'd like it to stay more under the radar. That way it stays pure I guess. Fans helping fans and creating new content. Indie, doujin, whatever. It's all good and even Touhou deserves credit for being a part of that.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't really like touhou. To me it represents what anime has become these days which is sucky.

Your probably thinking of the fan art and fan circle jerks. Touhou, the real Touhou, is nothing like that shit and probably has more in common with Pocky and Rocky and the quirky cute-em-ups of old than any modern anime.

but I don't think it's because of the games themselves really.

Not at all. There are a shit ton of doujin bullet hell shmups with much better drawn characters, but they never touched Touhou's popularity. The reason is because Touhou is really damn good. Great scoring systems, fantastic variety and pattern design, incredibly well paced boss battles and gameplay in general, and imo some of the best use of rng in the genre (some other devs should take note imo). Touhou has tons of fans within the hardcore gameplay focused crowd, and there's very much a reason for that.

[LordHypnos]

I can testify to Touhou's popularity among Japanese junior high kids, at least. I am seeing an increasing number of Touhou characters on pencil cases, pencil boards, and light novels on the desks of many of my students. I ask them, "Is she from Touhou?" The typical reaction is, "Wow, Greg-sensei! You know Touhou?" So I'm like, "Yeah, and I am more surprised that you younger kids know what Touhou is." Several of them actually play the games (mostly the boys). The girls seem to like the cute character designs. I figured that such 2D gaming would be lost on the younger crowd. I tell them I've never played the games (I hate the idea of playing games on my computer), but that I have tons of similar games (aka shmups) on my home consoles. "Oooh, sugoi ne." Before I started spotting these young Touhou fans, I figured that shmups were mostly lost on youth.

This is really surprising to me, but cool. I'm glad some kids are still playing arcade style 2D games. If only there was some game that could capture the interest of a western audience this way. Probably not though. I don't know a single person who I think would even bother trying an arcade style 2D game, much less a bullet hell game.

[ciox]

I can testify to Touhou's popularity among Japanese junior high kids, at least. I am seeing an increasing number of Touhou characters on pencil cases, pencil boards, and light novels on the desks of many of my students. I ask them, "Is she from Touhou?" The typical reaction is, "Wow, Greg-sensei! You know Touhou?" So I'm like, "Yeah, and I am more surprised that you younger kids know what Touhou is." Several of them actually play the games (mostly the boys). The girls seem to like the cute character designs. I figured that such 2D gaming would be lost on the younger crowd. I tell them I've never played the games (I hate the idea of playing games on my computer), but that I have tons of similar games (aka shmups) on my home consoles. "Oooh, sugoi ne." Before I started spotting these young Touhou fans, I figured that shmups were mostly lost on youth.

This is really surprising to me, but cool. I'm glad some kids are still playing arcade style 2D games. If only there was some game that could capture the interest of a western audience this way. Probably not though. I don't know a single person who I think would even bother trying an arcade style 2D game, much less a bullet hell game.

Eh, Jamestown didn't do too badly, I know people who tried it.

[Despatche]

no

someone finally gave in to those terrible things they kept saying they wouldn't, and told challenge to pack its bags a while ago... everyone else followed

all of the hardest possible modes in the world mean nothing, all of the attempts at mimicking the "arcade experience" mean nothing

to fight this you must play the same card and force difficulty on people; you will never do this because you think you're being "unfair"

but trying to be "fair" like this is a bandaid solution to an axe wound... people are the ones being unfair to you

[Squire Grooktook]

no

someone finally gave in to those terrible things they kept saying they wouldn't, and told challenge to pack its bags a while ago... everyone else followed

I'm not really sure about this. You're acting like games back than in general were universally harder.

The average platformer of the nes/snes days wasn't that hard. I mean yeah, there were a few really tricky ones, and of course there were games you could play for score/1cc's, but overall most games of those days weren't much harder than your average 3d hack and slash or whatever these days.

The only reason shmups are as hard as they are, imo, is because they fall into the camp of competitive gaming. They're just kind of an oddity compared to other competitive games in that their also single player.

[eatdogs]

I don't really like touhou. To me it represents what anime has become these days which is sucky.

Your probably thinking of the fan art and fan circle jerks. Touhou, the real Touhou, is nothing like that shit and probably has more in common with Pocky and Rocky and the quirky cute-em-ups of old than any modern anime.

but I don't think it's because of the games themselves really.

Not at all. There are a shit ton of doujin bullet hell shmups with much better drawn characters, but they never touched Touhou's popularity. The reason is because Touhou is really damn good. Great scoring systems, fantastic variety and pattern design, incredibly well paced boss battles and gameplay in general, and imo some of the best use of rng in the genre (some other devs should take note imo). Touhou has tons of fans within the hardcore gameplay focused crowd, and there's very much a reason for that.

Good points made. Yeah, the fan stuff seems to be the thing that irks me to not want to even try Touhou. That aaaaaannnndddd I haven't had a computer for myself since 2009...

[KAI]

best use of rng in the genre (some other devs should take note imo)

The mean those random bullets inside the patterns?

[Squire Grooktook]

best use of rng in the genre (some other devs should take note imo)

The mean those random bullets inside the patterns?

Yeah basically. I like a lot of the more random patterns because on one hand there's still definitely a lot of strategy and you can still approach them like a puzzle to be "figured out" and dodged easier and more efficiently, but you still get some lots of really awesome twitch moments and "oh shit" dodges from time to time.

Good points made. Yeah, the fan stuff seems to be the thing that irks me to not want to even try Touhou. That aaaaaannnndddd I haven't had a computer for myself since 2009...

Yeah, I know how you feel. I really didn't want to like Touhou for a long time. I blame a few guys on forums I used to go to who were total fanboys lol.

[jepjepjep]

Shmups are so niche that this is the only vg-related forum/site that isn't blocked at my work.

... kind of depressing

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Imo the biggest barrier for STG is that modern game design Kool-aid way too many gamers have drank, this coupled with the premise of "bullet hell is for savant's only, and way too difficult for me" means that even if they played a STG they'd probably give up at the first hurdle.

I think if STG is to survive outside doujin is that they need to adapt like Super Meat Boy or Dark Souls did just to get ppl playing them with an open mind. Imo Jamestown is the best example of a modern STG done right (this way), it split each stage separately while included an normal 5 stage arcade mode (gauntlet). This forced the average joe to play the same way you or I would in practising individual stages and doing full runs once we had enough of the game nail down. It was nice to read comments for players on the JT Steam Forums saying that they really enjoyed beating the game and were surprised that it wasn't as difficult as they 1st though.

The other problem is how many STG's does the average gamer need? On the 360 Companies like CAVE would put out atleast 1 STG every year which was great for the enthusiasts and collectors but the mainstream is probably happy with just a small handful of titles or just rebuying Ikaruga every 5 years, It's probably partially why the bottom fell out of Rising Star Games localisations by the 3rd game.

(edit fixed crappy grammar)

[Zapperkhan]

I think if STG is too survive outside doujin is that they need to adapt like Super Meat Boy or Dark Souls did just to get ppl playing them with an open mind. Imo Jamestown is the best example of a modern STG done right (this way), rather than just having a normal 5 stage game it split each stage up but also included gauntlet (arcade) mode forced the average joe to play the same way you or I would in practising individual stages and doing full runs once we had enough of the game nail down. It was nice to read comments for players on the JT Steam Forums saying that they really enjoyed beating the game and were surprised that it wasn't as difficult as they 1st though.

This is kinda me, nicely wrapped games that slowly ramped up the difficulty while teaching all the mechanics in a way that made the player feel empowered and not having them feel cheated by the developer, but not doing it in a way that was annoyingly patronizing. I played all the games you listed and in particular Jamestown made me think again about shmups and search out this forum. Jamestown had a pretty well designed difficulty curve by allowing you training wheels for the first couple of levels so you could enjoy the game without getting too frustrated then as you got the hang of it took them off and made you play on a more "normal" difficulty. I still haven't beat gauntlet yet bet I hope to!

[LordHypnos]

I think if STG is too survive outside doujin is that they need to adapt like Super Meat Boy or Dark Souls did just to get ppl playing them with an open mind. Imo Jamestown is the best example of a modern STG done right (this way), rather than just having a normal 5 stage game it split each stage up but also included gauntlet (arcade) mode forced the average joe to play the same way you or I would in practising individual stages and doing full runs once we had enough of the game nail down. It was nice to read comments for players on the JT Steam Forums saying that they really enjoyed beating the game and were surprised that it wasn't as difficult as they 1st though.

This is kinda me, nicely wrapped games that slowly ramped up the difficulty while teaching all the mechanics in a way that made the player feel empowered and not having them feel cheated by the developer, but not doing it in a way that was annoyingly patronizing. I played all the games you listed and in particular Jamestown made me think again about shmups and search out this forum. Jamestown had a pretty well designed difficulty curve by allowing you training wheels for the first couple of levels so you could enjoy the game without getting too frustrated then as you got the hang of it took them off and made you play on a more "normal" difficulty. I still haven't beat gauntlet yet bet I hope to!

FWIW, 2hu usually has a pretty kind learning curve. A good example: Directly after 1ccing Lotus Land Story, I managed to do immensely better at a particularly difficult part of Mars Matrix (That involved a lot of micrododging). It's like LLS actually temporarily made me better at shmups! I think it's because of how gradually it raised the speed and density of the bullets until the True Final Boss.
IDK, just some thoughts.