Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[gman]

Hey everyone,

Picked up a free BVM-20F1U from someone in Toronto who said he had received it from a friend in the production business and has no use for it. It has just over 50,000 hours, but apparently thats mostly standby time as the friend had it plugged in for year, barely used, in a home production studio. I'll be asking for some help in calibration/adjustment as some point in future.

My first, of many questions is a good/cheap source of 75ohm terminators and bnc (male) to rca (female) convertors.

Found these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10x-BNC-Male-Re ... 43be916131

and

these: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/10PCS-BNC-Male-t ... 92a&_uhb=1

Any reason to go with anything more expensive/better quality? If so, any recommendations on source (must ship to Canada)? I don't mind spending more if there is a difference, but I know sometimes gold plated etc is not really beneficial.

Thanks
Gman

[Tempest_2084]

Hopefully this is the right thread for this.

Anyone ever heard of a NetTV DTV28XF? I was wondering how good/bad it is. The NetTV is a 27" CRT monitor that also has Composite, S-Video, and Component inputs. I got this beast from a friend last year for next to nothing. The RGB inputs are DB-9 connectors, but I believe they don't support 15KHz RGb, just 31Khz (VGA) RGB (finding any info on this thing is next to impossible). I was also told that the RGB inputs won't support anything lower than 640x480 progressive so while it's not going to end my search for a nice 15Khz RGB monitor, it will make a nice stopgap until I find a PVM or something.

I've been trying to get the best picture out of it I can, but it's be a bit of a challenge. Right now I have two different converters hooked up to it: A GBS-8220/Sync Strike combo that goes into the RGB/VGA port, and a SCART to Y-U-V converter going into the Component port. The GBS makes a nice picture with no scanlines, but the colors are very washed out and I can never get them quite right. There's also some funny ghosting issues going on, but they're hard to see unless you look for them (ironically I first noticed them on the ghosts in Super Mario World). The Y-U-V converter has much better colors (although still a bit washed out), but the scanlines are a little fat for my tastes. Although if I turn the sharpness way down they look better.

I've tried to play with the RGB colors, but even using the 240P Test Suite on the Genesis I can't get them quite right. I think the problem is that I have to have the brightness and contrast turned almost all the way up or the picture is too dark. I assume this is because the set is worn out from prolonged use. I'll post some pictures tonight so you can see what I mean. In the meantime, what's the best game to use for trying to adjust the colors? I have my SNES, Genesis, Neo Geo CD, SMS, DC, Saturn, and PS1 all hooked up to it, so I can use a game from any of those systems. I had been using Symphony of the Night, Super Mario World, and Sonic the Hedgehog as screenshots for those games are plentiful.

Should I just give up on this one and look for a true RGB monitor, or is this something I can make work?

You can see a picture of the monitor here. Sorry for the bad pic, it's of my old game room setup. Everything is much better organized now.

[ckong]

This is such a great topic.

OK, I have the possibility to collect 2x PVM 2054QM and 2x BVM 2010P tomorrow for a total price of € 180 (€ 45 each). This seems like a good deal, isn't it?

But my question for now is if the BVM's will be that much better than the PVM's for 15K classic gaming? I'm asking because I actually only 'need' 2 monitors.

[Fudoh]

Great deal, yes. The BVMs have much better controls and if you're a perfectionist, you'll prefer the BVMs. The PVMs might offer a smoother look though with a little less pronounced scanlines.

[Ed Oscuro]

Anyone ever heard of a NetTV DTV28XF? I was wondering how good/bad it is.

Did you make this post about it? That's literally the only other good reference online to it. Astounding that just 12 year old monitors could have no 'net presence at all...anyway, that back panel shot shows an RGB1 input, though I wonder if it's really VGA given the description (and the 15-pin D-sub plug).

@ Ckong: Get the BVMs, leave the PVMs. Well, the only things that would sway me towards the PVMs are relative newness, some flaw in one of the BVMs, and weight.

[Tempest_2084]

Did you make this post about it? That's literally the only other good reference online to it. Astounding that just 12 year old monitors could have no 'net presence at all...anyway, that back panel shot shows an RGB1 input, though I wonder if it's really VGA given the description (and the 15-pin D-sub plug).

No, but the guy who did post that is the friend I got it from (after he got a better monitor).

I believe the input is indeed VGA not true RGB (as I come to find out, lots of VGA monitors have their inputs labeled RGB). It's really odd that there's no info on it, I guess it's kind of a rare beast. It works for what I need it to do, but I'm on the look out for something better (like a PVM or BVM). So for now I want to try and get the best picture I can out of it.

[ckong]

Great deal, yes. The BVMs have much better controls and if you're a perfectionist, you'll prefer the BVMs. The PVMs might offer a smoother look though with a little less pronounced scanlines.

I can be a perfectionist, when I need to.

I guess that I will collect all 4 of them, then do some testing and decide which ones I will keep. I love scanlines, so that won't be a problem.

By the way, I couldn't find a (free) manual online of the BVM 2010P, does someone has a PDF copy?

[Tempest_2084]

I actually have a chance to get a SONY PVM-1342Q locally for $55. I have no idea how good the picture is or if it has any burn-in. I'm reluctant to get it though as 13" is pretty tiny, even if the picture is good. Is this a decent PVM monitor?

[Tempest_2084]

Ok here are some pictures of my NetTV monitor playing games. Forgive the crappy quality (I didn't notice the light glare until after I uploaded the pictures), for some reason my camera added vertical lines which really aren't there giving everything a screen door look. In reality there are only the horizontal scanlines. I keep messing with the color, the whites seem a little blue to me, but I don't think I'll ever get them perfect. I haven't tried opening up my SCART to Component unit and messing with the pots in there though, maybe one of those can help?

Sorry if these are too big, I can resize if needed.

Castlevania Symphony of the Night (PSX)

Notice how Richter's hair is blue and his outfit is REALLY bright? It seems that the SCART cable I'm using for my PSX has some blue bleed for some reason. This only seems to happen on the PSX.




Marvel vs Capcom (PSX)



Super Punchout (SNES)

Gabby Jay's hair seems a bit off to me, but I might be imagining it.



Sonic the Hedgehog (Genesis)



Metal Slug (Neo Geo CD)



KOF 99 (Neo Geo CD)



A close up so you can see the scanlines better



Viewpoint (Neo Geo CD)

[mirkvid]

crt porn. great pictures

[Tempest_2084]

hmm.. I just noticed that the pictures look a little more washed out than they do on the real thing. I guess it's due to the lightning in the room when I took the pictures.

So is the quality of my monitor (taking into account my crappy camera and lighting about as good as you'd get on a PVM or other specialty monitor? If so I'll give up my PVM quest and just be happy with what I have. I can take better pictures if needed.

One of my biggest annoyances with this monitor is that the bright whites seem to have either a bluish tint (PSX) or a gray almost off-white tint (everything else). This is really noticeable when using the color bars from the Junker HQ 240P test suite. I wonder if playing around with the color pots in the unit itself would fix that or if it's just something to do with the monitor itself?

[Fudoh]

Color temperature seems indeed a little high.

Quality is in the usual range of what you can expect of a RGB TV on this size. It's not a Trinitron set, so RGB on a 29" PVM would get a little different look, a little less pronounced RGB dots and a little more pronounced RGB dots. On the higher end PVM and BVM sets the scanlines get even stronger and the RGB dots almost invisibly small.

[Tempest_2084]

As there is no color temperature setting on the monitor, what should I adjust to fix it? Tint? Color? R,G,B levels? The RGB pots in the adapter? Also note that the colors appear brighter and washed out due to my crappy camera and lighting.

What do you mean by RGB dots?

On a side note, I have the sharpness turned down pretty far to de-emphasize the scanlines. I like some scanlines, but not the really thick ones.

[Fudoh]

If you decrease green and blue you end up with a lower color temp. You pay attention to keeping the balance. It's easy to end up with a green tint after that.

With RGB dots I mean the visible sub pixel structure of the shadow mask.

[Tempest_2084]

Ok, thank you for the info.

The green is down all the way because it already had some green issues. The blue isn't up very high at all, but I can turn it down to zero as well. I think I had blue up a little because it helped brighten the picture a bit. I'll try playing around with the pots in the adapter as well, maybe I can fix it better there.

[ckong]

Time to post some pics of my catch of the week, 2 PVM's 2054QM and 2 BVM's 2010P. The inspiration for this purchase came from this thread, with all the enthousiasm in it, Fudoh's expertise and his very informative website about everything scanline related, and last but not least fagin's great and informative youtube movies.

Anyway, here they are, all four of them:



Some detailpictures of one of the BVM's:









You can imagine how thrilled I am. First thing to do was cleaning them. I don know how old the PVM's are, but the BVM's are from 1988. And yet pretty clean from the inside.

After cleaning them, mostly the outside, it was time to tune up the Geometry and Convergence. And there the BVM's really shine, not only because of the result, but also because of the way tuning can be done, so easy with all the (analoge) pots in the drawer. One of the BVM's was already perfect, the other one needed some finetuning, but the result is magnificant (the curved topline is because of the curved screen):



The Convergence of the PVM's is also spot on after a bit of tuning, but one PVM has a slight geometry issue on the top left. All in all the BVM's are Ace (10+), one PVM is a 9.5 (out of ten) the other PVM is a 9.

Today I did some testing with a few 15K (all RGB) consoles, some of them spitting out 240p (NES, MD, N64, PCE, Saturn, PSX) and some spitting out 480i (PS2, GC, XBOX, DC). All consoles were connected through RGB scart cables and a homemade Scart>BNC connector. And although everything went well, the sync mystery (at least for me) was there again. If somebody could please enlighten me? >>>> The PVM's had no problem at all with all consoles, the BVM had an 'issue' with the SNES, meaning that I got the SNES output only to sync after putting a terminator plug on the second sync input (the second RGB inputs already had a terminator plug), the other consoles didn't need this sync terminator plug. Not a big deal, but why is this?

Something similar happened when connection a PC (Groovymame, RadeonHD, CRT Emudriver, true 15K output) via a VGA > BNC cable to the BVM's. There I only got a stable picture after connecting H-sync and V-sync to the sync inputs (regardless in which order the two sync cables were connected to the monitor sync inputs).



Connecting a terminator plug to one of the sync inputs, like with the SNES, didn't help here. Is this normal behaviour?

The more I read about sync (and I want to learn about it), the more confusing it gets for me.

All in all the BVM's have really amazed me, the PVM's are already great, the (240p) game image on the BVM's is just awesome. Allright, the scanlines are a bit thicker, but hey, I love scanlines!

And now I feel a bit embarrased, this great deal only came to my knowledge a few days ago, and I couldn pass it (BVM's are pretty rare here in The Netherlnds), but actually I already will collect some more goodies tomorrow, purchases from a few weeks ago, in casu a PVM 14M2E, a B&O MX4000 and another 20" PVM (model still unknown, I get to choose one or two from a batch of 10 PVM's )

It is mostly the fault of fagin, he infected me! He also inspired me to get a Super Emotia and a RGB 580xi (came in last week, played a bit with them, very promising). Just kidding of course, I made my own decision, and of course I don regret it.

The sad thing is that I probably have to say goodbye to another great monitor, a Barco DCD 2840, I just lack the space.



Great game picture on the monitor, lousy photographer.

[fogueman]

Well this is a very interesting thread. I´ve got a question that maybe Fudoh or other experts can answer.

I already own a 25 inch Crt trinitron. Awesome picture quality, i´m more than happy with it, also the pseudo240p teletext trick works here, so It´s my primary retrogaming display.

At my parent´s, I recently found a Crt tv, a BEKO 20 inch. For me, it has very good picture quality, I think it´s a late model, from 2000-2001 or so. So it´s almost new and has been rarely used.

What do you guys think about these lesser known brands? I´ve read somewhere else that all the latest models from Beko, Skyline and other colourful brands, are quite good because they were released in the final days of Crt, and they all somehow were based on the Trinitron, which was the refference.

Here you can see Radiant Silvergun on that tv. For me the picture quality is more than good. Of course the picture doesn´t make it justice.

[Nocta]

Hi guys, I'm the fresh new owner of a PVM-20M4 and PVM-20M2.

The first one has 800 lines and the second one 600. One will be in Yoko and the other one in Tate.
Any idea of a good reason to Tate one especially over the other?

Also is there a guide or something that can help me to understand how to tune them perfectly with the OSD and front panel?

Thanks guys.

P.S.: Pics to come when I'll have finish the setup!

[ryu]

I'd test both in tate and choose the one with less color impurities

[Nocta]

Thanks ryu, I will do that!

[speedlolita]

Oh man. Is it the BVM with full geometry control on a slide out panel?

That's insane! I want one.

[Tempest_2084]

Dumb question and possibly a little off topic, but what would be the best game to use for for adjusting the color on a monitor? Ideally it would be something with a lot of different colors and with good reference screenshots online. I tried using the color bars in the 240p test suite on the Genesis, but when I got those looking good, the colors were out of whack for other games/systems. I still have a 'blue tint' problem going on and I want to fix it once and for all.

[emphatic]

Dumb question and possibly a little off topic, but what would be the best game to use for for adjusting the color on a monitor? Ideally it would be something with a lot of different colors and with good reference screenshots online. I tried using the color bars in the 240p test suite on the Genesis, but when I got those looking good, the colors were out of whack for other games/systems. I still have a 'blue tint' problem going on and I want to fix it once and for all.

If you have a game system that can display image files (like the XBox 360), you can start MAME on your computer and launch a game with a TEST menu, (Batsugun, CAVE games like Do-Donpachi) and take a screen dump with F12. Then use that picture to adjust the colours. Or use this: http://www.emphatic.se/test.gif

Have you seen my guide: http://www.emphatic.se/?p=710 ? It could help you out.

[Tempest_2084]

Dumb question and possibly a little off topic, but what would be the best game to use for for adjusting the color on a monitor? Ideally it would be something with a lot of different colors and with good reference screenshots online. I tried using the color bars in the 240p test suite on the Genesis, but when I got those looking good, the colors were out of whack for other games/systems. I still have a 'blue tint' problem going on and I want to fix it once and for all.

If you have a game system that can display image files (like the XBox 360), you can start MAME on your computer and launch a game with a TEST menu, (Batsugun, CAVE games like Do-Donpachi) and take a screen dump with F12. Then use that picture to adjust the colours. Or use this: http://www.emphatic.se/test.gif

Have you seen my guide: http://www.emphatic.se/?p=710 ? It could help you out.

No I didn't see your guide, I'll take a look.

I do have a 360, but I don't think I have component cables as I use HDMI. I'll have to look (maybe it came with them and I tossed them into a box).

My problem is that the blues seem to be off. It's like some the shades of blue are missing. Not sure how to fix that, perhaps the monitor is dying?

EDIT:I don't have a 360 component cbale, but I do have a PS3 with component cable. I'll use that with an image.

[emphatic]

My problem is that the blues seem to be off. It's like some the shades of blue are missing. Not sure how to fix that, perhaps the monitor is dying?

What monitor is it you have? If you have access to both RGB drive and RGB cutoff you should be able to fix it. Just read the whole guide through before attempting the adjustments.

[DavidJP]

Hey everyone

Im living in Japan and just find a old Sony CRT TV KX-29HV3
There someone here who know it ?

Screen size 29
Horizontal resolution 800 lines
Japanese RGB 21 pin input (15khz)

Pretty good , right?

[Tempest_2084]

It's the NetTV monitor I posted about a few posts up. It's basically a 27" VGA monitor with Component, S-Video, and Composite inputs. At the moment I'm using the component as the colors look better than the VGA (they look washed out with that).

Here's a picture using the 240p suite on the DC. You can see that the last several color bars are all the same color (it doesn't look quite so bad on the Genesis). I don't really know how to fix this, I already have the color way low and everything is starting to look dim even though brightness and contrast are all the way up. This is through the DC SCART cable so I'm not sure if that has something to do with it. My crappy camera makes it look slightly worse than it is (it's really not all one solid color bar until the last few rectangles).




Here's one from the Genesis version. The colors aren't as washed out as the picture makes it look (ignore the monitor reflection on the left).



This one is crappy and blurry, but you can see the truer shade of the colors

[Ed Oscuro]

Speaking of brightness and contrast, I read a post over at AVS Forum stating that (for Sony Wegas, at least) turning down contrast a bit will help extend the electron guns' lifetime. Any thoughts on this (and the same for brightness)? What component will likely fail, if anything? If it's just caps then I'm not too fussed. ICs a bit more problematic, and other stuff could be even worse. Answer about CRTs in general is fine, though in particular I would be interested to hear about the PVM (which I know has a very long lifetime, but I would like to extend that if possible) and the late-model Wega Trinitrons.

[ebeb]

I have the chance to pick up a PVM-1900 tomorrow for $60. Does anybody have any experience with this monitor, and if so, is it worth it?

[ApolloBoy]

I have the chance to pick up a PVM-1900 tomorrow for $60. Does anybody have any experience with this monitor, and if so, is it worth it?

That's a fairly old model and it doesn't even have S-video. Personally I'd skip it and track down a newer model.