Which Black Labels exceed their normal versions?

[tzakiel]

Of all the CAVE games, which ones are worth playing the black label in lieu of the original? I have heard DDP Dai-ou-jou is this way... any others where the black label is the "definitive" version?

[Cagar]

Personally, I find mushihimesama futari's black label to be THE version.
All of the modes just feel like that they can be pushed further in it, and the stupidity of ultra mode is replaced with actually sensible and solid god mode.

[Jonst]

Personally,I prefer espgaluda 2 black label over the regular version.Also dodonpachi daifukkatsu BL.

[CloudyMusic]

I much prefer Futari BL, personally, but I know that lots of people also prefer 1.5. It's very much a personal preference sort of thing.

DOJBL is extremely popular and seems to get far more competition these days than WL.

DFKBL is almost certainly less popular here than 1.5, but it's quite different and worth checking out just to see where you stand on it.

[Wyrmnus]

I enjoy DFKBL for it's music, although the difficulty scaling based on style mode is a bit of a drag but its not all that bad with proper use of Hypers. I like Futari's BL as well.

[That one scrub]

I like how DFKBL fully embraces that it is a game about bullet cancelling at its core whereas the vanilla felt confused imo, the music is the tits too.
Reminds me that I still have to finish novice once I get past those fucking stage 5 laser rings.

[Wyrmnus]

It took me quite awhile to find out that difficulty in DFKBL is based on what style mode you go on. Bomb Style is Easiest, Power Style is Normal, And Strong Style is Hard. So say you go to Stage 5 on Bomb style. You'll notice there are far less Laser rings to deal with, almost to the point you don't have to Hyper or Bomb to get through em unscathed.

[Pretas]

I'm not sure if I prefer playing with Deathsmiles: Mega Black Label's raised item counter cap of 1500, though it definitely wins out on content for including playable Sakura and the Ice Palace stage.

They're not technically "black labels," but Akai Katana Shin and Deathsmiles IIX are massive improvements over the games' respective original versions in every way.

[evil_ash_xero]

DeathSmiles Mega Black Label. It's the only version I play.

A lot of folks like DDP BL more than the other, but there isn't a lot of difference between them.

[Dave_K.]

A lot of folks like DDP BL more than the other, but there isn't a lot of difference between them.

People like DOJ BL because its easier.

[Bananamatic]

A lot of folks like DDP BL more than the other, but there isn't a lot of difference between them.

People like DOJ BL because its easier.

DOJBL isn't a proper black label as we know it now, it's more of a rebalance patch than an alternate mode

[To Far Away Times]

Mushi Futari BL lessens the survival challenge, but in my opinion is more fun to play for scoring.

The difference between DOJ and DOJ BL is slight, but I'd give the edge to BL.

I don't really have a strong opinion either way on Deathsmiles MBL. The original Deathsmiles got the upscaling treatment on Xbox 360, so for that reason I tend to stick to the original over MBL.

And although not a "Black Label" mode, Akai Katana Shin/Slash is probably the biggest improvement out of any of the Cave revisions/updates.

[Oniros]

AKAI KATANA SHIN

[BobbyNewmarkiii]

DDP DFK BL is one of my favourite shmups ever (especially with Ketsu-pachi on the same disk). I mainly play strong mode, even though I don't have much hope of a 1cc. It's just ace - total survival playstyle and having to use all the tricks at your disposal, be it bombs, hyper, bullet cancelling or whatever. Just epic.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The difference between DOJ and DOJ BL is slight

?

The difference between the two is enormous, especially if you're talking about the second loop.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

For me, I'd suggest playing the Black Label of every game except for Deathsmiles and DFK. For those 2 I generally prefer the original versions, though Ice Palace in DS MBL is a pretty nice stage, I just prefer the scoring in vanilla. DFK BL is nice to have so you can use the much better music in 1.5 though.

As for Guwange and Guwange Blue, I don't really care for either.

[BulletMagnet]

The difference between DOJ and DOJ BL is slight

?

The difference between the two is enormous, especially if you're talking about the second loop.

I think he means in comparison to the "Black Label" variations that came after it; while DOJ BL does tweak a lot of things, it doesn't "fundamentally" change how the game is played, at least not to the same extent as, say, DFK BL, which could almost be a completely different game from "regular" DFK since so many underlying mechanics have been outright replaced or completely redone.

[Special World]

Deathsmiles MBL is terrible imo. A shame, as it's a really substantial revision.

Futari Black is the greatest game ever.

[evil_ash_xero]

A lot of folks like DDP BL more than the other, but there isn't a lot of difference between them.

People like DOJ BL because its easier.

If we just go by the first loop, I always have an easier time with vanilla. It doesn't really make a lot of sense, because you get so many hypers in BL...but you have to get a higher score to get the first one up, and I always REALLY need that one up early on.

I've made it to the last stage in vanilla. I think stage 4 in BL. I'm sure I could probably straighten that out, but I always feel like BL is "supposed" to be easier, and I want to feel like a big man and take on the infamous DDP DOJ, for realz.

[Deca]

I want to feel like a big man and take on the infamous DDP DOJ, for realz.

Well regardless of which version you play you won't be doing that in the first loop.

[Squire Grooktook]

and I want to feel like a big man and take on the infamous DDP DOJ, for realz.

IMO the hyper rebalancing makes the scoring more fun, enough to make BL the "real" version IMO. Not to mention the second loop.

[Quantium]

DDP DFK BL is my personal favorite Cave game of all time (not to mention just a blast to play through over and over), and Mushihimesama Futari BL just blows all other modes/versions out of the water. As others have noted, ESPGaluda II BL is also just a more well-rounded and fun game, IMO, then the original. I haven't messed around that much with Deathsmiles MBL, but I'm still having too much fun with v1.1.

[Bananamatic]

Call me an asshole but I think people tend to prefer black labels because they are easier and more casual(not that there is anything wrong with it), as BL is pretty much always flashier/more player friendly and generally more fun when you just want to play a random credit and shoot stuff up.

When I got DFK, I thought BL would be the best version due to the lack of loops and it felt "better" to play it straight away, as you got much better looking scores by just flailing around compared to 1.5 where you drop chains all the time, plus all the extra rank mechanics, laser/shot combo, hyper cancelling and the darker look made it look flashier and cooler than 1.5

then I realized it's pretty shit for any serious play and went to 1.5(while keeping the superior BL soundtrack)

same with futari, in BL it just felt better to immediately blow everything up with the super strong shots compared to the limited power of 1.5(then again to be honest Futari is probably the most "balanced" black label that doesn't screw with the mechanics too much)

Galuda II is probably the best example, BL just looks fucking awesome with the new soundtrack(especially the 3 new tracks for Seseri) and all the extra gauges and whatnot, but there is pretty much zero survival challenge and you cancel everything on the screen for free plus flying through bullets during slowdown and whatnot so unless you really like the scoring system there isn't much left.

If you wanna count SDOJ 360 mode it felt the same to me, it left a much better initial impression on me than the arcade mode did, but I cleared it with Laser really fast and the scoring system didn't really interest me so I just ended up going back to arcade.

Even on this forum most of the "serious" players seem to prefer WL/vanilla

[Battlesmurf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpO-HR4R5rM

I'd almost say Ibara BL- but it feels different enough that they are both good in their own ways, and I'm not sure if I could say with certainty that I'd recommend completely skipping Ibara "Vanilla".

[chempop]

There is a reason people call Ibara Kuro "Ibara Light", it's an easy version of a badass yagawa game. Go for the standard Ibara if you are going to play it.

[Skykid]

DOJ BL > DOJ - although there's not a lot in it.

Akai Katana Shin > AK Vanilla

Deathsmiles MBL > Deathsmiles - MBL is less irritating and Ice Palace is the best thing about the entire production.

DFKBL > DFK 1.5 - I actually have grown to understand 1.5, even though it's still a very awkwardly designed game, but BL is more what I want from a Dodonpachi.

Never played Kuro, so no comment on the Ibara situation.

However, beware people who tow this line:

Mushihimesama Futari BL just blows all other modes/versions out of the water.

1.5 is far superior. BL is busted by odd counterweights, being ridiculously easy to clear, slower in immediacy/pace due to slower gem switching, and frustrating to play for score. You tend to get people screaming about how amazing it is because they managed the Original 1cc, because it really is that soft, but as a production it's an inferior work and I'm unsure why they released it. That said, God Mode on BL is superior to Ultra, but Maniac on 1.5 is better than Maniac BL - so Vanilla claims 2 out of 3. Short story, ignore BL unless you want to attempt God Mode.

[iconoclast]

Futari BL > 1.5.
I don't even like BL Original, but I think it's safe to say that it's a lot more interesting for serious score play. 1.5 has the better Maniac mode, but BL's God Mode happens to be the most perfectly designed game ever created, so BL wins overall.

Deathsmiles MBL > Vanilla.
I think vanilla is more fun for casual play, but the game falls apart once you start aiming for high level scores (500m+?). At that point you have to stop using the mechanics that made the game fun in the first place and start shooting and dodging everything like a plain old shmup. Cave really focused on what made DS fun with MBL (and DS2) by placing much greater emphasis on fever mode and recharges. The only thing I don't like about MBL by comparison is how long the game is.

Akai Katana Zetsu > Arcade.
Zetsu has more balanced ships, slightly reworked bullet patterns and mechanics (energy is easier to acquire, so every ship can recharge their gauge pretty quickly), an excellent bonus stage, a more punishing rank system, etc. The only downside is that you may lose some of the nuance that comes from having the 256 hit cap in the arcade version, since that makes you choose your spots more carefully.

Espgaluda II > BL.
BL is fun, but it feels like more of a console arrange mode than a true Black Label.

I'm also starting to think that DOJ White Label is better than Black. Scoring is significantly more balanced and the first loop isn't as much of a chore to play through because it doesn't really matter if you die or bomb. You lose all of your lives at the start of the second loop anyway, so you can suicide at certain points in order to keep rank low and build some extra hyper meter. The differences in the second loop make White Label the most unforgiving game I've ever played, so I suppose that's a point against it.

[dunpeal2064]

Alright, I'll bite.

Futari BL > Futari 1.5: BL Original has more depth than 1.5, and is far more interesting when played for score. Maxing out the counter and shedding large gems from enemies is great. The gem switching isn't slower unless you aren't playing for score, and the game is certainly not easier when pushed to its limits. The bullets get lightning fast, you have to point-blank everything, and you pretty much can't bomb ever. I also prefer God mode to Ultra, but Original does have the better Maniac (Which is my least favorite mode anyways).

DFK 1.5 > BL: I get the "meh" that some were feeling, considering that more people here seem to play DDP and DOJ for a 1-ALL than for score, and DFK isn't a very interesting/challenging 1-ALL. However, when you start to learn the game proper, to me it is clearly superior to BL, and even a cut above DDP and DOJ. I almost wish scoring was the only way one could play the game, so that more people could see how fine-tuned and well-balanced it is. While DFK BL is a fun romp, 1.5 is a masterpiece.

[Bananamatic]

There is a reason people call Ibara Kuro "Ibara Light", it's an easy version of a badass yagawa game. Go for the standard Ibara if you are going to play it.

I thought kuro was cooler because it had boss lifebars, and I'm a big sucker for boss lifebars

DFK isn't a very interesting/challenging 1-ALL

It's a really easy 2-ALL by cave standards with Strong, you can probably get more fun out of it playing for clears compared to Galuda II or something