Not sure if I should cry or laugh. (360 and Dreamcast)

[The n00b]

This still goes beyond the games and into the 'honor' of the system, which is ridiculous, IMO. Who cares if Darius Gaiden, Vampire Hunter, etc. etc. came out on Saturn first? It's available on ps2 with 100% of the frames intact and no loads.

I care when someone discounts a prior system's viability just because that system's games have been later released on other platforms and that that somehow makes the origin system worthless. That's all. I suppose I'm a bit irked that you appear to be tossing history out the window; once the Revolution hits, the NES and SNES platforms become obsolete since their games are now "Revolution" games. I have nothing against games being ported to other consoles -- I think that's great. Just seems silly to trounce a system because some of its games are available elsewhere, albeit years later.

Well, would you count 3rd strike as a ps2 or DC game? I play it on ps2 because the port is better. Therefore it's a ps2 game.

NES and SNES games are going to look like shit on the revolution, on the other hand.

And a Treasure game better than Border Down? Nein. Most overrated dev in the universe. Ikaruga is the only one of their games close to acceptable IMO.

Since the xbox port of third strike is superior to the ps2 port, shouldn't it be an "xbox game" then? According to your theory of course. BTW border down is one of the most overrated games in the universe. Any decent horzi is better than that travesty.

[Ganelon]

What aspect of the Xbox 3S is better than the PS2 version? Do you mean the online play? It's arguable whether that's a benefit anyway since if we consider the PS2 version better than the DC solely based on some odd timing in the DC version (well, and the fact that the PS2 version has the original soundtrack), then the lag that exists in online play sort of kills the usefulness of the feature.

[The n00b]

What aspect of the Xbox 3S is better than the PS2 version? Do you mean the online play? It's arguable whether that's a benefit anyway since if we consider the PS2 version better than the DC solely based on some odd timing in the DC version (well, and the fact that the PS2 version has the original soundtrack), then the lag that exists in online play sort of kills the usefulness of the feature.

The xbox version of thirdstrike is the port that is closest to the thirdstrike arcade version in terms of the accuracy of timing. The ps2 port is also RARELY prone to very small instances of perceptible lag which the xbox version doesn't have. Thus making the xbox port the superior one. It also has online functionality which, no matter what you think of it, is a feature that is lacking in the DC and ps2 ports.

[Ganelon]

Is there any way I can experience this lag? I don't recall ever experiencing or hearing about this issue on the PS2 until now. If you experienced it personally, were you using a converter by any chance?

[Neon]

My mistake. Xbox game.

[Benjamin]

Well, would you count 3rd strike as a ps2 or DC game? I play it on ps2 because the port is better. Therefore it's a ps2 game.

NES and SNES games are going to look like shit on the revolution, on the other hand.

And a Treasure game better than Border Down? Nein. Most overrated dev in the universe. Ikaruga is the only one of their games close to acceptable IMO.

Third Strike is a "Dreamcast game." When the PS2 port outputs to VGA, then it'll be better, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. :^)

Dunno why you state NES and SNES games will look bad, either, especially not having seen them in action. While you're entitled to your horrid opinion of Treasure, that would still at least constitute a subjective, acceptable viewpoint. :p

[sethsez]

Third Strike is a "Dreamcast game." When the PS2 port outputs to VGA, then it'll be better, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. :^)

It plays better on the PS2 and (especially) the Xbox, VGA or not. And playing better >>> looking better.

[Neon]

Third Strike is a "Dreamcast game." When the PS2 port outputs to VGA, then it'll be better, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. :^)

It plays better on the PS2 and (especially) the Xbox, VGA or not. And playing better >>> looking better.

Precisely. And the game will look worse in VGA than low-res RGB, since it's a low-resolution game. By that standard the Deadcast version is better since it has a 'true low res' (non-scaled) mode, but in my view that's offset by problems with the actual gameplay.

The NES and SNES games are guaranteed to look worse than on an actual system by nature of the fact that the revolution won't support low-resolution output.

As far as Treasure are concerned, their games are full of creativity, have great graphics, but ultimately fail in the execution. I'm not concerned with graphics so much as games being fun. I respect their innovations but when the games are tedious to play, they're rather useless.

[The n00b]

Is there any way I can experience this lag? I don't recall ever experiencing or hearing about this issue on the PS2 until now. If you experienced it personally, were you using a converter by any chance?

No I just use my Hori EX2 xbox arcade stick. From my little experience with the ps2 version, I did not experience lag either but it has been seen by those who frequently play the arcade version of third strike. I would imagine that for the casual fighting game fan who does not frequent evo, that the ps2 port is more than adequate.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

I count at least 17 exclusive shooters for ps2 + many multi-system games, to which I say blah.

DB, Gradius V, GWG, DOJ. The rest is fluff.

xbox360, already forgotten

Rob hits the bullseye once again. Those 4 games are absolutely the reasons to own a PS2.

gigas:
GW 1&2 vs. GWG
(advantage DC)

This is the only opinion I might disagree with out of all of the well informed comparisons you made. I absolutely think that the point blanking in GWG is exactly what the series needed. It works fantastically well with the force reflect. I'm no expert at scoring systems but it seems to me that GWG has more scoring potential than the others. Even though the other two run at a faster pace and are more difficult to achieve the 1cc on I prefer GWG for the sole addition of point blanking. I could be wrong though the final boss in GW1 is quite impressive and triggering volcanoes in GW2 could offer more depth I suppose. Anyone care to clear this up for me?

[professor ganson]

gigas:
GW 1&2 vs. GWG
(advantage DC)

This is the only opinion I might disagree with out of all of the well informed comparisons you made. I absolutely think that the point blanking in GWG is exactly what the series needed.

Yeah, you're probably right about this. I think I was allowing sentimental value to sway me here, as the original Giga Wing is what really drew me to the series even though I played GW 2 first. Also, GW looks the best imo, and parts of the music draw me in as well. But gameplay/scoring-depth wise I leave the matter to those who have spent more time with the games.

As far as Treasure are concerned, their games are full of creativity, have great graphics, but ultimately fail in the execution. I'm not concerned with graphics so much as games being fun. I respect their innovations but when the games are tedious to play, they're rather useless.

So you find Gradius V more tedious to play than Border Down? I'm not disagreeing with you, just wondering if that's your take. I find both games rather challenging myself, but mostly in a good way.

[Acid King]

As far as Treasure are concerned, their games are full of creativity, have great graphics, but ultimately fail in the execution.

Extraordinarily debateable.

[Benjamin]

Deadcast

Oh, that's clever, especially since liking the Dreamcast and disagreeing with you is analogous to religious worship in your mind. I find the SFIII PS2 version washed out and grainy looking after playing the game in VGA. The VGA colors are crisp and vibrant like the arcade, and nothing about the Dreamcast playability is flawed.

As far as Treasure are concerned, their games are full of creativity, have great graphics, but ultimately fail in the execution. I'm not concerned with graphics so much as games being fun. I respect their innovations but when the games are tedious to play, they're rather useless.

Your opinion. I don't see how all Treasure games "fail in execution" or are "tedious to play" -- that's a rather grand statement to be making to encompass dozens of games and reaks of close-minded anti-fandom.

[Rob]

This is the only opinion I might disagree with out of all of the well informed comparisons you made. I absolutely think that the point blanking in GWG is exactly what the series needed. It works fantastically well with the force reflect. I'm no expert at scoring systems but it seems to me that GWG has more scoring potential than the others. Even though the other two run at a faster pace and are more difficult to achieve the 1cc on I prefer GWG for the sole addition of point blanking. I could be wrong though the final boss in GW1 is quite impressive and triggering volcanoes in GW2 could offer more depth I suppose. Anyone care to clear this up for me?

I've cooled off a bit on GWG. I just put it in the other day to maybe make some better videos, but just... didn't want to and went back to MM. I always liked MM, but when GWG was released I thought it took the best parts of MM and added them to GW. After going back to MM and getting a good score + clear, I've changed my mind. MM does speed and precision better and has a similar point blank scoring system (because of the piercing cannon). So really, while I like the middle ground of GWG, MM and GW1&2 do their respective things better. Actually the point blank scoring system isn't much of anything, since the approach has very little difference with the other GWs. You end up destroying the enemies by rushing towards and reflecting, same thing with GW2 (once volcanon is triggered, to collect more medals), you just don't get any extra points from the enemy.

They each have their own difficulties with scoring (MM seems the most clearcut to me, though - guessing why a hundred extra medals appear 1/3rd of the time is much harder to figure out than MM's cubes/reflecting).

The level designs in GWG are what really put me off. Levels 1 & 2 are very fun. Level 3 is mediocre, level 4 & 5 are spotty. The bosses are really spotty as well. Sadly, I think the first two bosses require the most strategy in regards to reflecting. The 3rd and final boss are junk.

[Neo Rasa]

Your opinion. I don't see how all Treasure games "fail in execution" or are "tedious to play" -- that's a rather grand statement to be making to encompass dozens of games and reaks of close-minded anti-fandom.

Nah, poor guy just played way too much Stretch Panic.

[CMoon]

I love how debates quickly mutate into things they never were...

Neon, I don't think anyone is seriously arguing about how great the DC is NOW--because indeed it is currently dated by most of its games getting ported to newer consoles. The problem was the initial statement that the DC was the worst console ever (I don't even know how it could be in the running!) I think there is little room for argument that in its day, the DC was a mighty console that actually was more killed off by rumors and corporate bullying than actually being out-performed (that wouldn't come until later!)

Now if someone wants to debate about the DC's greatness at this very moment (as compared to a fully modded PS2), well go for it. That one IS a losing battle...

[Benjamin]

Hooray for sense! :^)

[jp]

Xbox 360 = has G.Rev


Border Down = best shmup to come out in 2000.

Neon makes my teeth hurt, which is why I rarely show up here anymore, and only do so to praise the DS which is the best machine out right now IMO.

Good day sirs!!!!

























.... I SAID GOOD DAY!!!!!!!

[Neon]

I love how debates quickly mutate into things they never were...

Neon, I don't think anyone is seriously arguing about how great the DC is NOW--because indeed it is currently dated by most of its games getting ported to newer consoles. The problem was the initial statement that the DC was the worst console ever (I don't even know how it could be in the running!) I think there is little room for argument that in its day, the DC was a mighty console that actually was more killed off by rumors and corporate bullying than actually being out-performed (that wouldn't come until later!)

Now if someone wants to debate about the DC's greatness at this very moment (as compared to a fully modded PS2), well go for it. That one IS a losing battle...

Agreed. Definitely was better than PS2 for a long time.

Oh, that's clever, especially since liking the Dreamcast and disagreeing with you is analogous to religious worship in your mind. I find the SFIII PS2 version washed out and grainy looking after playing the game in VGA. The VGA colors are crisp and vibrant like the arcade, and nothing about the Dreamcast playability is flawed.

Just plain ignorance in your case. Playing it in VGA stretches it to 640x480 and is in no way close to the arcade. You're not playing the PS2 one in RGB with the filters off, I take it. Anyways, the DC port's missing animations, off colours, slow speed, and problems with parrying are well documented. I recommend you spend a few minutes over at shoryuken.com my friend. Saying the DC port doesn't have gameplay problems is a flat out lie.

We could debate about whether they're a big deal, but we already have in the past and this thread is getting dangerously close to retarded.

I think Border Down is a lot better than Gradius 5, yes. Most of the complaints leveled at it have to do with the soundtrack or graphics - not gameplay, which is a close cousin to G. Darius and therefore excellent. I'll work on getting a good score in it one day most definitely. This, the SSF2T port and Mars Matrix keep the DC from sucking, IMO.

Neon makes my teeth hurt, which is why I rarely show up here anymore

That's a shame. You're a hell of a score player, I only wish you'd get a ps2 so we could see if you could beat Rob at GWG. The fact that there are a significant amount of PS2 shooters with great gameplay can't be denied, so your position is getting a little difficult. Drop the crusade my friend. Enjoy the games as games and nothing more.

Rob wrote:
DB, Gradius V, GWG, DOJ. The rest is fluff.
Rob hits the bullseye once again. Those 4 games are absolutely the reasons to own a PS2.

I disagree. Taito Memories has arcade-perfect ports of G. Darius and Darius Gaiden. DOJ pales next to Galuda. and Ibara = a new Raizing game, fuckin' A.

I don't see how all Treasure games "fail in execution" or are "tedious to play"

Guess you haven't played them all. I had fun with Ikaruga back in the day, but then I used to enjoy Final Fantasy as well. Astro Boy was ok, but that seems to have been worked on by Sega as well. The rest I'd love to see defended from a gameplay-only perspective - especially Stretch Panic and Guardian Heroes Advance

[Rob]

I only wish you'd get a ps2 so we could see if you could beat Rob at GWG.

lolz

[Ganelon]

I'd like to see someone defend Hippa Linda/Stretch Panic/Freak Out myself. Although wildly innovative, the boss strategies are quite lame, easy to determine, and strict in hit detection.

[professor ganson]

Neon makes my teeth hurt, which is why I rarely show up here anymore, and only do so to praise the DS

NOT a good excuse, jp. I'll admit: when I first got here Neon freaked me out a bit. But that's way in the past, and now I think very differently. Yes, Neon can be combatative, but he's usually got an interesting perspective. You need to get over it, jp, and get back to your Saturn shmups.

[The n00b]

So are we talking about Treasure's worth as a dev in an xbox 360 thread, the ps2 as a worthy shmup system, the dreamcast as a worthy shmup system, the accuracy of various ports of Third Strike, or the ignorant accusation that the Dreamcast is one of the worst systems of all time?

I only ask because we're flying through topics at light speed here..

[umi]

So are we talking about Treasure's worth as a dev in an xbox 360 thread, the ps2 as a worthy shmup system, the dreamcast as a worthy shmup system, the accuracy of various ports of Third Strike, or the ignorant accusation that the Dreamcast is one of the worst systems of all time?

I only ask because we're flying through topics at light speed here.. :lol:

Hey now... read the topics properly, for starters :P

[jp]

Eh... I'm not on my crusade so much anymore (either of them, as I haven't bought a Saturn game in several months. I mean seriously, when you own TWO Hitachi Navi GPS HiSaturns, you really don't feel anything else needs to be proven collection wise). And I rarely have time to play consoles anymore other than handhelds. So... yeah... these days I'm just rootin' for MS to bring ole Sony down. But doing it over Pictochat.



At any rate, my comments were... erm... agreeing with the article. I can somewhat see the Xbox 360 being a new Dreamcast. Look at the Sega arcade titles coming to it (Afterburner 360, Virtua Fighter 5, Outrun 2 will be playable on it one day, MS might even get Sega to put Planet Harrier on there). Consider that G.Rev is working on it. Treasure is working on it. Capcom is throwing some stuff on it. SNKP already has a 2D fighter lined up for it. Its a white console. Shit, when I first saw the kiosk in Wal-Mart I THOUGHT IT WAS A DREAMCAST (from far away, I was mad confused). I fathom once PSU flops on the PS2 it'll find its way on to the 360 as well. Soul Calibur III is supposedly coming to the 360.

I mean honestly, the 360 does have some valid similarities (or rather, has the potential to have valid similarities) to the Dreamcast. For crying out loud, as of right now its looking like NAOMI and Atomiswave ports are being lined up for it. How much more Dreamcast can it get?


360 is going to be a solid console, and I may eventually get one.

[dai jou bu]

Enjoy the games as games and nothing more.

I'd agree with you, except if the hardware fails on you, you can't enjoy the games as a game, can you (unless you use the disc as a frisbee or something like that)? My experiences with PS2 hardware are currently reminding me of my old Playstations, and after realizing that I just purchased a PSOne just to keep playing my PSX games, I decided that I will not deal with Sony's future generations of gaming hardware since they have not been very pleasant. Contra: Shattered Soldier was the first and only game that my friend bought for his 5/6-month old PS2, and it was already giving him disc read errors. So he ended up returning the game and trading it for a copy of Devil May Cry 2, which to this day, I occassionally remind him of the error for doing so. Today, he has to orient his PS2 to its side in order to even play a DVD-based game, and I'll have a better chance of beating the AI in Phantasmagoria of Flower View on Lunatic then trying to run Gradius V on the thing, which at best, the music will skip and any game voices will play out of synch. I tried putting in Castle Shikigami II in another friend's PS2, and no matter its orientation, it still generated disc read errors, but it was able to boot up a severely scratched DVD just fine. Another friend ended up getting a slimline PS2 because of similar problems, but he needs both in order to play all the games in his library.

And these slimline PS2s aren't cheap either even though they've discontinued production of the old models while my 4-year old modded Dreamcast still runs without any problems whatsoever. Sure, I may not be able to play any of the games on the PS2 I'd really like to play (like Ico, Katamari Damacy, R-Type Final, Gradius V, Virtua Fighter 4, etc.) but I also don't have to deal with disc reading issues on my Dreamcast either. And both of my TVs that are used for gaming are out of commission at the moment, so I can't even play my Xbox without buying a peripheral that costs even more than an Xbox or PS2 in order to display its output on a PC monitor.

/end crusade

Back on topic, yes, the 360 does remind me of the Dreamcast in a lot of ways. Some of the things in the 1up article are spot-on, (like comparisons of the logos and changing the faceplaces) while some of them are pretty lame (no Halo, but Halo is a very mediocre FPS in terms of multiplayer but is extremely popular because of this aspect). At first I was skeptical of the 360 as well, but once I saw that it supported VGA output, I quickly changed my mind. And since Microsoft has really deep pockets, they are more than willing to take financial hits regardless of how much of a "failure" the 360 will be. The moment Senko no Ronde is released for this system will be the day I will get my own 360, and even if this is the only viable game for the console (which is definitely not going to be the case, PGR3 looks really nice), I wouldn't care as long as the hardware doesn't start giving me problems as quickly as I've seen PS2s do. Heck, I would've bought a 3DO just for Star Control 2.