What's the deal with shmup wikis?

[Oniros]

This forum is home to some great resources for all things shmups: strategy and scoring guides, soundtracks, history of the genre, interviews, and even achievement discussion. However, how come there's no wiki out there that has compiled this information in a more presentable manner? The 2 shmup wikis I know of are the one hosted on wikia, and another that seems to be associated to this site. However, if you compare the content of this site versus those 2 wikis, they seem to be very lacking. Not to mention the creator of one of those wikis seems to only have 3 posts on the forum. For the past months I've been trying to improve shmup articles on wikipedia. Again, some of them are rather good like the Mushihimesama or Deathsmiles one. However, games like Deathsmiles II have almost nothing written about them or games like Caladrius have no article at all.

Do you guys think a shmup wiki would be useful? Should we help create a new one or contribute to the existing ones? Or maybe even just improve the articles on Wikipedia? What the general opinion here? Maybe we could have a vote sometime.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The problem is most of the time spent editing a wiki is filling out general information that nobody cares about. People who are looking for more indepth information about a game (damage/character/game mechanics data) will refer to a specific guide that is much more in-depth and is aimed at someone who wants to know very specific information about the game, rather than just general information, much like how in an RPG, general Walkthrough guides don't tend to be helpful to good players nearly as much as the specific guides on how damage is calculated, how the AI is programmed in the game (in a tactical game or one with AI control settings like Star Ocean 3).

Wikis have their place, but shmups are probably too niche of a genre for a lot of people to be interested in contributing to a generalized repository of information instead of actually playing the games. The forum here functions well for specific game information as you can easily go to Strategy -> view the list of games with strategy threads, and find something relevant to specifics about the game (and in several cases like Battle Garegga or Daifukkatsu, find a detailed game guide). One really fantastic, in-depth guide written by an expert is more valuable than hundreds of bland, general wiki pages with common knowledge about the games, at least in my opinion.

Compiling information on a Wiki is very time consuming, and frankly shmups are so varied that they really don't have the playerbase to probably produce anything as in-depth as something like Touhou has... I'd imagine that's part of the reason why that wiki's mostly been ignored. Even there, look at how much space is dedicated to stuff not actually related to the game mechanics. There's some very good, detailed listings under each game, but it's still notwhere the same as having someone really into the game write a guide detailing everything nitty 'n gritty like how rank mechanics work. There's other issues like edit warring, making sure your editors aren't crap and actually know what they're talking about, etc...

[RegalSin]

Just to keep things in short, people wants to make thier own website, but do not have the knowledge to build one, so they use a blog, wiki, or even forum engine, or pre-made website.
......

I really annoyed by them, as they do have some usefull information, while barring, other good information. I tried to add information one time, and the person behind the screen was like

......

1. Do not vandalize blah blah blah

2. I Apologuise and did not realize you was attempting to add information.

........

Wiki;s calls my favorite comic series, a taboo.
It does not mention, connections between current events and certain game characters.

I am sick of them, so younger version of me, is going to read the things on these wiki's and be like HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE. Instead of having some respect or understanding.
.......

Youtube is another version of Wikipedia basically.

[Kollision]

these are all just valid systems of sharing information
the quality of the information, obviously, is only dictated by their users

is strategywiki the same?
there are some very good shmuppy articles in there, full of detailed information and maps

[RNGmaster]

I used to edit the Hellsinker wiki, but relatively small/inactive wikis get hit hard as fuck by spambots and eventually you lose the will to keep up with them. If you have a relatively small # of people writing about the game it's going to get shit on by bots soon enough.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Couldn't you lockout registration except to people who actually request user accounts? You could have a small but focused (and more importantly competent) editor base that way.

[ACSeraph]

Personally I find this forum to be an incredibly well organized wealth of information on shmups. The strategy section has the ST/SD/GD/RQ labeling system that makes it very easy to search for the information you need.

I don't think we need a different website to house such information. If anything we should focus our efforts on expanding the content within the Strategy subforum we already have; there are a lot of games that are desperately in need of STs. But when I suggested a little while back on this very forum that we get a group together to write STs for top 25 games that didn't have them the topic went totally ignored.

If we can't even get new people motivated to contribute and improve the content on our own home site, there's no way in hell that a wiki will stay updated.

This isn't a strike against anyone here by the way. We are just a busy bunch of people, so new content is slow coming. No one has the time to take up any new large scale projects it would seem.

[evil_ash_xero]

I think the review section on the main page needs to be updated. It's ridiculously behind.
That was how I found this forum to begin with.

[Cagar]

Hell yes.
Wiki would be more newbie-friendly, clean and include the scoring mechanics AND in-depth strategies for each game as well (that can be hidden by default)
Strategy section of this forum is not even comparable, it's a mess to navigate and to find useful information from, and I think that writing on an "actual wiki" would get people's motivation up to finish guides for games that don't have one yet.

Just start the wiki.

[ciox]

Wikidot is a nice wiki system that lets you decide who can edit articles, not saying it's the best but I looked into Wikia before and they are pretty much dead set on allowing everyone to edit articles.

[Cagar]

As an example to my post:
Try to find a daifukkatsu strategy or just scoring guide from the strategy section using the forum search. I couldn't find it

EDIT: Holy hell, does it even exist? Goddamn just get the wiki rolling, I think that you should allow everyone to write articles at first to get some content quickly

[Teufel_in_Blau]

BareknuckleRoo pretty much answered your question. This forum is just very well organised and easy to use/search. There is no need for a wiki.

I think the review section on the main page needs to be updated. It's ridiculously behind.
That was how I found this forum to begin with.

Hah, isn't this just Malcs personal site? Shmups.com and the shmups forum are two seperate entities. I don't know about the relationship between him, system11 and Ghegs but I always thought that he was just linking to this forum.

As an example to my post:
Try to find a daifukkatsu strategy or just scoring guide from the strategy section using the forum search. I couldn't find it

EDIT: Holy hell, does it even exist? Goddamn just get the wiki rolling, I think that you should allow everyone to write articles at first to get some content quickly

This is what I got: http://shmups.system11.org/search.php?k ... mit=Search

If nobody wrote one than of course you won't find it... A wiki wouldn't change it.

[cools]

Anyone is welcome to flesh out what's been done in the AO wiki. You just need a forum account there (meaning the wiki doesn't get spam abuse whatsoever).

http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Cave
http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Gazelle
http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Raizing
http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Takumi
http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Toaplan

We probably need an STG category though: http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Special:Categories

[ACSeraph]

As an example to my post:
Try to find a daifukkatsu strategy or just scoring guide from the strategy section using the forum search. I couldn't find it

EDIT: Holy hell, does it even exist? Goddamn just get the wiki rolling, I think that you should allow everyone to write articles at first to get some content quickly

This is what I got: http://shmups.system11.org/search.php?k ... mit=Search

If nobody wrote one than of course you won't find it... A wiki wouldn't change it.

Yep

I really hope that a wiki would take off, but it just seems like if we can't get new content here then a wiki is a pipe dream. In any case I will still support the project if we start it by formatting my own content for the wiki. The question is what wiki are we all going to get behind?

[RNGmaster]

Couldn't you lockout registration except to people who actually request user accounts? You could have a small but focused (and more importantly competent) editor base that way.

We tried that on the Hellsinker wiki and even with captchas and locked editing, people kept making accounts and posting links to male enhancement drugs or w/e

It's like, I appreciate the gesture but I'm fine.

also

BareknuckleRoo pretty much answered your question. This forum is just very well organised and easy to use/search. There is no need for a wiki.

Except the search function is notoriously temperamental. I think a google affiliate link or an improved algorithm would make things less annoying.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

As an example to my post:
Try to find a daifukkatsu strategy or just scoring guide from the strategy section using the forum search.

Or don't waste time like a moron and go to the well updated and maintained Strategy Board Index that has a listing of every good and relevant guide (hell, almost every thread made I think) sorted by each game. The Strategy Board Index topic is clearly stickied to the top of the strategy board for a reason; it's where anyone asking "guide plz" should be directed. It's a fantastic resource that I've used a bunch, and makes looking for strategy topics for a particular game amazingly simple. If you're using the forum search and complaining about a lack of threads when there's plenty of 'em you are doing it wrong.

[Ghegs]

As an example to my post:
Try to find a daifukkatsu strategy or just scoring guide from the strategy section using the forum search. I couldn't find it

Then you suck at using the forum's search function, as most people apparently do. Quick guide:



The useful parts are highlighted in red. Limiting the search to only topic titles or first posts is what I guess most people don't use, but they're extremely useful. As is displaying the results as topics instead of individual posts.

Searching for author is also very efficient. That's how I usually search for my own posts that I need to double-check or something.

[Despatche]

these are all just valid systems of sharing information
the quality of the information, obviously, is only dictated by their users

this.

i think a wiki would be great. i like the strategy forum, but a proper wiki would allow one to present general and technical information in a really snazzy way. thing is, for this genre, people simply do not have the real desire to create and maintain such a project... i know i don't! i think the people at mizuumi are crazy for what they do, and they know they're crazy. speaking of which, some of them are sortakinda shmup people now... maybe we can get them to be crazy enough and do a shmup section or two...

[Sinful]

I was thinking what ACSeraph said.

And, Cagar, if you want it in a more organized wiki format, we should suggest it for here with only shmup members having access to it. And maybe in a wiki organized & friendly to edit format, more folks would be eager to add things + join forum too add things.

I think the review section on the main page needs to be updated. It's ridiculously behind.
That was how I found this forum to begin with.

Yes, and same here. How about starting with the never published postman reviews still waiting to be put up? (He mentioned he wrote one review alongside Whip Rush, but no Whip Rush review is up). I love Postman reviews... though when I read the Heavy Unit review awhile back I never thought I'd be that fan, lol. Heavy Unit is alright enough. Don't get why it always gets such a bad rap? It's like a plague and it infects others to write bad about it or something? ... Er, yeah. Like Evil Ash said, we need more reviews up there too + it'll make more shmup fans (I might not of been one if it weren't for this site?).

[BPzeBanshee]

Then you suck at using the forum's search function, as most people apparently do. Quick guide:

Just used your method of searching to find Neo Geo stuff in the Hardware section. I got absolutely no results at all typing "neo geo" and attempting all of the categories in Search Within box, including thread titles.

My own eyes found a Neo Geo thread with "neo geo" in the thread title, and the search function did not find it.

Something's wrong with the search, it's not us being idiots, it's been happening for a while and it's been reported by people smarter than me.

[cools]

If the search is set up as per phpbb defaults its not great for short words - neo and geo for example.

[ACSeraph]

Like Evil Ash said, we need more reviews up there too + it'll make more shmup fans (I might not of been one if it weren't for this site?).

Why not write your own? We need more people who when they see a lack of content are willing to get in there and create it. I intend to keep writing and improving guides this year, and I'm really serious when I say it would be great to get a group together here to support one another in creating, editing, and improving content.

[Ghegs]

Just used your method of searching to find Neo Geo stuff in the Hardware section. I got absolutely no results at all typing "neo geo" and attempting all of the categories in Search Within box, including thread titles.

My own eyes found a Neo Geo thread with "neo geo" in the thread title, and the search function did not find it.

Something's wrong with the search, it's not us being idiots, it's been happening for a while and it's been reported by people smarter than me.

Neo Geo is an unfortunate example, yes - like cools said, the default settings for phpbb searches basically ignore any words at or under three characters. This is a valid complaint about the search, especially since even if you put the words in quotes or put + in front of them, they're still ignored.

I'm not saying the search function is perfect, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

[Sinful]

Like Evil Ash said, we need more reviews up there too + it'll make more shmup fans (I might not of been one if it weren't for this site?).

Why not write your own? We need more people who when they see a lack of content are willing to get in there and create it. I intend to keep writing and improving guides this year, and I'm really serious when I say it would be great to get a group together here to support one another in creating, editing, and improving content.

Of course, you're a teacher, you must be like mad organized & driven. And that's pretty cool.

I won't review a game until I've played the heck out of it... and I'm barely 1cc'ing any shmups as is (got one more Darius though... easiest route though ). But there are plenty of reviews already just waiting to be put up, I assume? Like Whip Rush that Postman mentioned he did alongside one review that's up. But no Whip Rush review is up...

[Oniros]

Like Evil Ash said, we need more reviews up there too + it'll make more shmup fans (I might not of been one if it weren't for this site?).

Why not write your own? We need more people who when they see a lack of content are willing to get in there and create it. I intend to keep writing and improving guides this year, and I'm really serious when I say it would be great to get a group together here to support one another in creating, editing, and improving content.

Well, NeoGAF has this thread where people can "call dibs" on new games that are coming out, in order to create their respective official threads. Maybe we could have a sticky thread on the strategy section, so that people who would be interested in creating guides have an easier time finding others who would be willing to help them. Kind of like a sign up whiteboard.

[Cagar]

As an example to my post:
Try to find a daifukkatsu strategy or just scoring guide from the strategy section using the forum search. I couldn't find it

Then you suck at using the forum's search function, as most people apparently do. Quick guide:

Woooaahh..
I searched it exactly like your "guide" shows even before you posed it (like I don't know how to use a basic forum search effectively?), and still did not find a daifukkatsu scoring guide.
Do you? Did you even try finding it yourself? Probably not.
because it probably doesn't exist, which i find crazy too..

also

as most people apparently do.

this is exactly a good reason for why we need the wiki.

[Ghegs]

Do you? Did you even try finding it yourself? Probably not.

Of course I did. This one was at the top of the results. Seems to be the best there's available so far. Can't expect the search engine to find information that doesn't exists, now can we?

(like I don't know how to use a basic forum search effectively?)

Sorry, that's my fault, working in IT support has conditioned me to always assume user error first.

[Cagar]

Do you? Did you even try finding it yourself? Probably not.

Of course I did. This one was at the top of the results. Seems to be the best there's available so far. Can't expect the search engine to find information that doesn't exists, now can we?

That's for daifukkatsu black label, and of course not