Should I take Java before C++?

[drauch]

Moh, I need advice on everything. Please PM me immediately.

[trap15]

LEARN COBOL

[Obiwanshinobi]

I installed MinGW using MinGW Installation Manager. Now I've got no clue how to uninstall it. Found some guides online, but all of these advice me to install things for the sake of uninstalling stuff. I need someone who is not a robot to recommend something that is not malware before I do this.

Furthermore, is Tiny C Compiler any less painstaking to try out?

[null1024]

Furthermore, is Tiny C Compiler any less painstaking to try out?

TCC is super-simple to try out [download, extract archive, enjoy], and I use it as my C99 compiler of choice on Windows.

It is not a C++ compiler of course, but it is nice.

[trap15]

Tiny C is only interesting as an experimental tidbit. It's not for use as a normal C compiler.

[nasty_wolverine]

I installed MinGW using MinGW Installation Manager. Now I've got no clue how to uninstall it. Found some guides online, but all of these advice me to install things for the sake of uninstalling stuff. I need someone who is not a robot to recommend something that is not malware before I do this.

Furthermore, is Tiny C Compiler any less painstaking to try out?

Thats really odd, last time i tried it, it was more or less extract a archive to C:/ and point whatever IDE(code blocks) you are using to it. I dont know what has changed between then. The safest method to uninstall stubborn things like that are manually delete all the files, and clean the registry with any references to it. But be careful, dont accidentally delete other system files or registry.

And I would suggest using mingw-w64, last i heard it was more closer to the linux toolchain and provides x64 support. if you want a hassle free route to cross compiling, use the codeblocks installer that comes with mingw.

[Ixmucane2]

Java is shit and awful. Learn C++ or C.

I thought C# was the future... Am I wrong in this?

C# was meant to be Microsoft's Java knockoff. Not an inferior knockoff, since it was designed by smart people and with the benefit of some hindsight, but it solves the same problems in almost the same way. Now it's simply the main Microsoft programming language, definitely better than Visual Basic.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Thanks for your responses. TCC seems to be what I need right now.

[retrojc]

Honestly C++ is great to know if wanting to become a game programmer, everywhere I have been have worked in C++ in their core engines. C++ is also referred to as a 'good language' essentially if you can handle memory, thread etc in C++ you can do most stuff in other languages, but I've never seen any truth in this.

C# is a good language and more widely used for high level software, ASP.Net/Visual Studio express will allow you to piss about in it. I use this language the most in my current job, and it's not bad - I like it actually. Also used in Unity3D, though in Unity3D i use UnityScript.

Java is an odd language, I thought it was dead, then it wasn't etc. Essential for android dev. I use it a lot on my masters course.

C is for iOS these days and old systems, I haven't seen many software build in C in the last 5 years apart from iOS.

There are a lot of other languages too, obviously. Python, LUA, JavaScript I see get used widely too.

[GaijinPunch]

Honestly C++ is great to know if wanting to become a game programmer, everywhere I have been have worked in C++ in their core engines. C++ is also referred to as a 'good language' essentially if you can handle memory, thread etc in C++ you can do most stuff in other languages, but I've never seen any truth in this.

I think the argument about C++ is that it's the more challenging of all the major languages. While it doesn't have the convenience of something like Java, it rewards you by giving you more control, goes way lower, and is leaner. Not as lean as C, but has newer concepts like classes and templates, which are amazingly convenient (and usually necessary these days). If you get used to that, then the others seem easier. Or something like that anyway...

Java is an odd language, I thought it was dead, then it wasn't etc. Essential for android dev. I use it a lot on my masters course.

I've never touched it but I can guarantee you it is alive and well in the financial world. I joined a group on LinkedIn and there was a huge debate about whether it was viable to build a trading algorithm in Java since it's notoriously a resource hog. (The low level stuff is almost always C, as it has to be fast. How fast? Microseconds make a difference, so it's more latency sensitive than even the most grandiose game design.) Anywho, there was a trading firm that basically said they have algos in Java b/c you can either find a top teir C programmer to do it, or a God tier Java programmer to do it. Which is easier to find? God tier Java programmer by a mile. I read somewhere that you can get similar latency out of Java, but you "basically have to break the spec". So I guess that's where the God tier came in. Again, this is just shit I read from other people in the industry, but seemed to hold.

C is for iOS these days and old systems, I haven't seen many software build in C in the last 5 years apart from iOS.

One of these days I need to dick around w/ a dev kit. All I need is some free time which isn't going to happen.

[Crafty+Mech]

Objective-C is the most commonly used language used for iOS development, which is a superset of C that includes SmallTalk style messaging for the OO implementation. There is definitely a learning curve for the syntax, it took me awhile coming from C++.

I use C all the time for embedded programming, in particular with AVR microcontrollers. A few years ago I also spent a painful year extending pharmacy middleware written entirely in C. There is still plenty of C out there, so I think it is worthwhile to spend some time learning how common data structures & algorithms are implemented outside an OO framework.

[okerlo]

Nice to see that some people here are hobby programmers or even work in the business.
I'm currently studying Computer Science and although I gain quite a bit of theoretical knowledge the actual programming part is quite small. We had a short crash-course on Java which was ... well it was a crash-course what do you expect. Therefore I'm working on my programming skills in my free time.

The reason why I'm resurrecting this thread is because I would like to know if you could give me some insights in the business. It seems like most of the students want to do some fancy schmancy web stuff like html5, jquery or whatever is out there. To be honest I'm not really interested in that kind of stuff, I would like to work in the "actual" IT business but I don't really know what I could do in my free time and during my study to work toward this "goal".

Should I take a look into embedded systems? Is artificial intelligence a big thing in the IT industry? I'm currently thinking about learning some more Java and maybe in a few months get right into C or is there something totally different you would recommend me? Any general books that I should have read? Is it a healthy attitude to somewhat "ignore" web stuff and work more get good in C or similar languages?

Thanks in advance
Regards
okerlo

[nasty_wolverine]

...

Learn a systems language, i recommend C AND C++ (they are not the same beneath the surface, requires different way of thinking in each to write programs),
Learn a scripting language, something like lua, python or perl,
Learn a functional language, like haskell.

If you even cover, two out of them, you can probably deal with anything they throw at you. Remember, programming is all about logic and structure, once you learn one, it does carry over to others you may want to learn later.

[trap15]

^ Words of truth, quite well put.

[Ixmucane2]

Should I take a look into embedded systems? Is artificial intelligence a big thing in the IT industry? I'm currently thinking about learning some more Java and maybe in a few months get right into C or is there something totally different you would recommend me? Any general books that I should have read? Is it a healthy attitude to somewhat "ignore" web stuff and work more get good in C or similar languages?

You mention a few IT specializations. Some (like embedded systems) are "lines of work" with fairly permanent characteristics, some (like artificial intelligence) are abstract techniques that will remain useful for the foreseeable future independently from the specific technology used to realize them, and some (like programming languages and "web stuff") are technologies that come and go.

If you are a student, you should prioritize theory and general techniques that will last you a lifetime. You also need to pick up programming languages etc. as needed for your projects, but a sufficiently deep competence will allow you to judge whether any programming language or other fad is

• useful for your needs
• novel and therefore worth learning
• likely to become popular enough to help you find employment if you become an expert

You should also take a long term view about technology. For example, while standards like HTML and CSS are likely to evolve slowly for the next 20 years like they've done so far, the newest incredibly great Javascript build tool from some guy on Github is likely to be dead next spring.

Expect to expand your competence step by step, building on general principles and familiarity with similar stuff. If you are asked to do something new, you are probably going to do it as an outgrowth of a familiar ongoing project, in a familiar programming language, with reference documentation available, according to common procedures and algorithms, and so on.

The suggestion by nasty_wolverine isn't good because he recommends great languages (opinions differ: I would recommend either C or C++, at least as a beginner, unless you really use both, definitely Python over Perl, and slightly simpler functional languages like LISP or Scheme) but because knowing diverse languages implies a deeper background theoretical knowledge: what you need to understand quickly that Javascript is similar to other dynamically typed scripting languages but with bad conversion rules, that Ruby is much like Python with a sprinkle of Perl-like syntax, that Fortran can be optimized better than C or C++ at the price of painful limitations, etc.

[ED-057]

Since I`m the only person alive who thinks this, it is my duty to post it: Assembly language is the only good one, because it follows how the hardware works, and hence does not impose bizarre imaginary limitations.

The syntax is better because it uses a series of individual instructions to the CPU, consisting of an opcode mnemonic and any associated operand(s). Meanwhile, compiled languages mostly use a cryptic jumble of unpronouncable punctuation marks and miscellaneous symbols. Sometimes a single line of code will represent an operation of considerable complexity, while at other times one or more lines of code will serve only as window dressing that can`t be said to do anything at all. An assembly language programmer would never need to resort to something as grotesque as this.

OK, now you can gloat about how programmer brain rot spread to hardware design causing "modern" CPUs to have instruction sets that look like ass and Java bytecode support.

[HydrogLox]

I'm currently studying Computer Science and although I gain quite a bit of theoretical knowledge the actual programming part is quite small. We had a short crash-course on Java which was ... well it was a crash-course what do you expect.

Starting a Computer Science curriculum with Java as a programming language is utilitarian and unimaginative. MIT used to jump start theirs with Scheme (apparently they have switched to Python now).

Is it a healthy attitude to somewhat "ignore" web stuff and work more get good in C or similar languages?

The "web stuff" is going through a bit of an upheaveal now - for years now there has been the "Web 2.0" hype - but only recently the technology seems have been gotten ready to move to the "next level". Just don't make the mistake to dismiss something just because it seems to be related to "the Web".

a sufficiently deep competence will allow you to judge whether any programming language or other fad is ... the newest incredibly great Javascript build tool from some guy on Github is likely to be dead next spring ...

One "fad" which has been gaining traction over the past five years is nodeJS. While node is largely used to assemble web servers of some discription it is basically a generic JavaScript runtime environment built on Google's V8 JavaScript Engine to run all sorts of JavaScript scripts - nodeJS and V8 are all written in C++. Node JavaScript scripts tend to be written by people who take JavaScript seriously - so the code has little in common with the JavaScript code that you typically find in your average web page (there are of course exceptions). So a competent language combo of C++/JavaScript could turn out to be useful in the near future - personally I'd like to see that rounded out with some Haskell exposure in order to encourage a good style in both C++ and JavaScript. FYI - Typically going from Java to C++ is harder than the other way around.

[beatsgo]

If you are a student, you should prioritize theory and general techniques that will last you a lifetime. You also need to pick up programming languages etc. as needed for your projects, but a sufficiently deep competence will allow you to judge whether any programming language or other fad is

• useful for your needs
• novel and therefore worth learning
• likely to become popular enough to help you find employment if you become an expert

.

I would like to reiterate how important this is when selecting a language for the application you're creating, especially the first bullet point. Each coding language/scripting has a purpose, thus you can view it as a tool. Just look at nasty_wolverine previous post to see why.

[Vexorg]

I've tried to learn C++ on a number of occasions, mostly I end up getting stuck on all the memory management stuff and never really get past that. I've done a decent amount of C# as well (since I've worked in mostly Microsoft-centric environments) and it's pretty good for working on native Windows apps, but not of much use outside of that.

[nasty_wolverine]

I've tried to learn C++ on a number of occasions, mostly I end up getting stuck on all the memory management stuff and never really get past that.

Its easy. You can either allocate on the stack (in program memory) or on the heap (in free memory). The stack is small, so you allocate necessary things which are small and persist through out the application in the stack, and big things out in the heap. Too much on the stack will cause stack overflow.

this is a stack allocation:

Code: Select all

int random = 4; //chosen by fair dice roll

this is a heap allocation:

Code: Select all

int *random = new int(4); //dice doesnt seem random enough

Both pieces of code set random to 4.

Just remember anything you "new" in, you gotta "delete". And this is about a good 50% of memory management in C++. The rest is casts and delete[].
And another important thing, if you need containers, dont create your own. Use STL, its there for a reason.

edit: yes, i know, xkcd reference.

[HydrogLox]

mostly I end up getting stuck on all the memory management stuff and never really get past that.

Memory is only one kind of resource that computer programs have to manage (e.g. file handles, database connections, etc.) and neither C# nor Java help you with managing resources other than memory. Garbage collection has a tendency to kick in at the worst possible time unless it can be delayed to the end of your program. Garbage collection introduces its own set of headaches and memory leaks and concepts like weak, soft and phantom references or short and long weak references. Program design should strive towards deterministic resource lifecycles - "knowing" when a resource is no longer needed - at which point in time the resource can be released. Otherwise you need to resort to strange tactics like the Weak Reference Pattern to even help the garbage collector do its job.

[shmuppyLove]

I PROGRAMZ IN BINARIES.

but fo rill, I don't know shit. Never take my advice on anything.

How can I take your advice on not taking your advice if you're telling me to not take your advice on anything?

JERK