CAVE Shooters (and shmups in general) strategy vs. finishing

[tzakiel]

Just a quick question - I am just getting into shooters like Donpachi and deathsmiles, esp galuda, etc as I have built a nice MAME cabinet and really enjoy these... I am just a casual player, I put in credits and I go through the stages. I've finished a couple of the games... but I can't help but feel I am missing something. I see a lot of people talking about the "difficulty" of strict chain combos in donpachi, etc. Can someone educate me- do these actually help the game play (finishing with less credits, or becoming more powerful) or are they just for score? Same question with "items" like bees, etc you can collect. Is the enjoyment for you in the scoring or just getting through a game? I must confess I rarely even glance at the score, as long as I pass a level and use less credits. MAME makes it easy to spend a fake $100 on a playthrough, so I have tried to limit myself by setting "budget" of 3 continues, for example. But it seems like many of you watch the score and that is where some of the elements like chains and things become important?

[Cagar]

Scoring is the thing everyone is after, as it's the easiest way to "improve" at the game.
Scoring might have advantages like extra lives (extends) for certain amount of score, so if you're going for 1 credit clear, it's suggested to learn the basic mechanics at least.

[tzakiel]

So for most of you shmuppers it's about getting the highest score? On one credit or by the time the game is cleared? Or both as sep. goals? When people say a game is hard does that assume a 1 credit run? Because obviously with shmups it's easy to just load in credits and pass stages.

[KAI]

Clear the game = Awesome
Hiscore = Super Awesome
Clear the game + Hiscore = Super Duper Awesome

[CloudyMusic]

As you've said, most arcade games will let you continue as many times as you want, meaning that quite literally anyone in the world could "beat" almost every game if they just put enough credits in. While that may be entertaining once or twice, it takes literally zero skill to do, and where's the fun in that? Players often turn to chasing high scores in order to get a continuous challenge and to appreciate all of the elements that the game has to offer. (Many games have several fun, complex mechanics that you may never even know exist if you disregard score.)

Pretty much every high score leaderboard out there only accepts entries done on a single credit. Likewise, when people talk about "clearing" the game, they mean doing it on a single credit. Clearing the game with fewer and fewer continues every time is a reasonable way of setting goals for yourself if you really like doing full credit-feed runs, but your score is for all intents and purposes invalidated when you do that.

[Squire Grooktook]

I personally always enjoy myself regardless of whether I'm going for score or survival. It's all about the tension and excitement of a hard fought battle, for me at least.

That being said, scoring is a lot of fun, most of all because it adds a competitive aspect to the game. When you're playing for survival, you're playing alone, but when you're playing for score you're competing against everyone else who enjoys the game as much as you do. Scoring is also generally the bragging right and the thing that lets you measure your progress against other people the most.

Scoring also is definitely one of the best ways to get better. Even beyond extends, learning to do the difficult things and push yourself to the limit even on the first stage will definitely improve your abilities IMO.

But above all else have fun, and play the way you feel most comfortable. If you don't feel like playing for score today, or don't think a certain game is fun when played for score, than don't feel bad for not doing it. Not to mention certain games aren't even designed with deep scoring in mind (certain oldschool games or borked systems etc.)

[EmperorIng]

Generally, the name of the game is finishing without using a second credit.

When I first started, it felt overwhelming to finish any console port without the credits set to max (usually 9). However, as you get better at these games, you sort of want to 'prove' yourself by beating them with one continue.

Learning a game's mechanics almost always relates to getting extra lives in order to make the most out of your credit.

Scoring, as it always has been, is for bragging rights!

[tzakiel]

Thanks, very helpful replies. Yes, what I think is cool about many of these games are the hidden systems in place that you don't necessarily notice unless you are playing with a bit more finesse. They also remind me of being back in Japan at the arcades there. I personally like the idea of using only as many credits as I would actually spend on the game in an arcade. I might put one or two, or even three extra 100 yen coins in but I'm not dropping 2800 yen or something. So my initial goal will be to clear one of these games on 3 credits and I will go from there!

[tzakiel]

Oh, one more... what are some great shmups to start out with to start to "get" the genre and get my skills up? Should I play old games first and move up to current times? I especially love Japanese style games with lots of style, and thus I have only really tried CAVE games so far. But I have a bunch more for MAME that I just haven't tried yet.

BTW here is what I'm playing on: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... c=135197.0

[Squire Grooktook]

I actually started out trying to 3 credit clear Darius Gaiden, before moving on to a 1cc and finally a 1 life clear. It's definitely a good way to ease into games that might be too intimidating otherwise.

[Wyrmnus]

Maybe I should use that strategy. I keep telling myself 'Only a 1CC's Glory will get you satisfaction!'

[MR_Soren]

When playing for score, only the first credit counts.

When playing for survival, learning the basics of scoring will help in most games because you can earn extra lives.

Collecting bees in DoDonPachi - they fill your hyper faster, that helps you survive. They often relate to the requirements for entering the second loop, so there is a gameplay bonus. Plus collecting the bees is like a mini-game inside the game, and some people probably enjoy that. Finally, they help your score.

I would suggest learning to 1CC a game, and that game should probably be Deathsmiles because it's one of the easier ones and you already said that you like it.

Scoring generally adds to the gameplay in a game because you have more things to consider due to the additional rules you had previously been ignoring. For example, without scoring, your thoughts are: "Don't get hit by a bullet." With scoring, your thoughts might be "Okay, I want to save my powerup until right after the mid-boss because I can score a lot of points there… and don't get hit by a bullet!"

When discussing strategy for a game, you often have different goals if you are playing for survival versus playing for score. A strategy for surviving a boss encounter would likely contain tips on how to kill a boss quickly and how to avoid certain attacks. A strategy for scoring during a boss encounter might detail how to destroy each section before killing the boss so you get more points. It's like a new game once you start playing it for score because your objectives are different and your approach to each section changes.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Because obviously with shmups it's easy to just load in credits and pass stages.

Credit feeding doesn't mean you're good at the game, and in many cases, you won't see all of the stages. See: any game with a loop, or any game like Giga Wing that has a good ending/final stage only accessible if you beat the game without continuing.

Yes, what I think is cool about many of these games are the hidden systems

The whole not using a hundred credits to play through the game thing isn't hidden, it's why your score resets when you continue and why many games reserve the 'ones' digit of the counter to show how many continues are used. There's nothing wrong with giving yourself say a limit of 3 credits, but eventually if you want to get serious at beating one of the games, it only really counts if you do it without continues. There's some extremely difficult shmups out there, but there's also a lot of very forgiving arcade shmups that actually give you a lot of resources to work with.

Should I play old games first and move up to current times? I especially love Japanese style games with lots of style, and thus I have only really tried CAVE games so far. But I have a bunch more for MAME that I just haven't tried yet.

Older shmups are really hit or miss. There's some hidden gems, but there's also a lot of trash, a lot of silly Raiden clones, etc. Some easier 1CCs would be something like Terra Force (older) or Espgaluda (newer). Other Cave games like Donpachi, DoDonpachi and Progear are not so bad if you're aiming for a simple 1-loop clear as they give you lots of bombs to work with (the loops have strict requirements to enter and are a massive leap in difficulty so don't feel bad if you just 1-All the game, it's a big accomplishment nonetheless). Anything by Psikyo or Raizing will probably be less friendly, namely due to very speedy bullets, but you may find a 1CC of Armed Police Batrider's easy course fun, or even Battle Bakraid.

Another fun, but easy 1CC to try out is Batsugun Special version. The normal version of the game is quite tough due to a larger hitbox, but the Special version makes your hitbox tiny, gives you a shield when you levelup, your bombs are now the team attack fullscreen version even in single player... and it has 4 or so loops to get through with no requirements to access so it's a game you can play for a while and keep working on even after the 1CC.

Mostly, just play whatever you want and that you enjoy. If you're not enjoying it, what's the point?

[ACSeraph]

It depends on the person and the game, but generally people on this forum are either survival players or highscore players. In both cases everyone is sticking to a 1-credit rule.

Any multi-credit run should be considered practice and not an actual clear. Your goal should be clearing in a credit, and your planning and bomb allocation should also be built around that. If you are using multicredit runs to practice it's really just to familiarize yourself with later portions of the game, and in a program like MAME savestates are a much better way of doing that.

Survival is the most basic form of hardcore play. Seeing as you can't highscore if you are dead your initial goal for any game should be learning to clear it on a credit. Depending on the game this may require scoring (like in Caladrius you have to score well to level up weapons and get resources necessary for survival). Most Cave games feature score based extends, so you should learn the basics of scoring in order to get them.

After you can 1cc then you can move into tuning your runs towards scoring. This usual involves a lot more risky play, and often you can end up with a higher non-1cc score than you would get for a survival oriented 1cc. The ultimate goal though, for the best of the best, would be 1cc while also playing with excessively risky tactics. Personally though, I don't think that should be your focus if you can't even clear the game in a survival oriented manner yet.

For me, I mostly play for survival, and then if a game has a particularly interesting scoring system I will move into score play after securing the initial 1cc. So for example, I learned to 1cc Mushihimesama 1.5, but the scoring system in it doesn't attract me much, so I don't play it for score. On the other hand I love the scoring in Caladrius, so I have tried to push that game to it's limits. I'm not saying straight survival play is bad though; I thoroughly enjoy it. It's just that sometimes a game will click with you in a way that makes you want to take things to the next level. That is what highscore play is all about.

Also I recommend going for something more simplistic and survival oriented for your initial 1cc, instead of a game that has survival mechanics tied to scoring. A lot of older games fit this bill, such as Gradius or Darius. They aren't easy per se, but the mechanics are simple to grasp. Definitely don't start with something ridiculously complex like Espgaluda II.