NESRGB board available now

[ninn]

Anything else involves interpolation (introducing noise, artifacts, lag, etc.).

If you output every line twice, that gives you vga, no noise, no artefacts, no lag. Your point is invalid.

[leonk]

Anything else involves interpolation (introducing noise, artifacts, lag, etc.).

If you output every line twice, that gives you vga, no noise, no artefacts, no lag. Your point is invalid.

Original NES consoles/games are about 240p. Yes, assuming one wants 31k VGA so they can display on LCD TV directly can be achieved via line doubling (lets ignore the aliasing it introduces). But who would want to play like this? Your LCD TV (assuming it still has VGA port) then further upconverts this to 1080p (which is not a multiple of 480p and here you get lag) and in the process converts the 4:3 signal to 16:9 native. In addition, you also lost the oh so sexy scanlines CRTs have.

Why would anyone want this?? If you really want to play on LCD, something like the XRGB-mini works on the original 240p / 15k signal using much better video processing.

But, if you want to be true to the original game console, without interpolation, then using a 15k display is your only option at which point a VGA 31k output doesn't make sense.

At the end of the day, I think whatever solution you choose, it should function similar to other consoles of that era; this way you can more easily integrate it into your setup. A majority of the consoles of that era output 15k 240p. It isn't until more recent consoles that we got 31k - but these newer consoles also can output 16:9 signal and require a different configuration to integrate into your gaming room. Forcing the NES to act like an XBOX or DreamCast doesn't make sense because the games were never coded to display 16:9 31k.

[Fudoh]

If you really want to play on LCD, something like the XRGB-mini works on the original 240p / 15k signal using much better video processing.

line doubling in the FPGA saves you the 24ms in lag the Mini introduces. Linedoubling can be done pretty much lag free - with or without scanlines and today's TV sets don't mind if you feed 480p or 1080p. There won't be additional lag. And even if you don't have VGA on your TV anymore, transcoding to component of converting to HDMI can both be done lag free as well. The UniversalPPU won't a VGA-only solution, so why bluster about the added option to output in 480p instead of 240p ?

[RGB32E]

If you really want to play on LCD, something like the XRGB-mini works on the original 240p / 15k signal using much better video processing.

line doubling in the FPGA saves you the 24ms in lag the Mini introduces. Linedoubling can be done pretty much lag free - with or without scanlines and today's TV sets don't mind if you feed 480p or 1080p. There won't be additional lag. And even if you don't have VGA on your TV anymore, transcoding to component of converting to HDMI can both be done lag free as well. The UniversalPPU won't a VGA-only solution, so why bluster about the added option to output in 480p instead of 240p ?

Shenanigans Fudoh!

480p output doesn't gain you anything if you want a sharp picture on a flat panel (1080p)! 240p output scales much better than 480p to HD resolutions in general with the mini anyways. Can you even state one TV that gives as sharp/clean of an image with a 480p component source as a 1080p digital source?

Between Tim's NESRGB and Brian's HDMI (FPGA) NES, I don't see any use for the Universal PPU, and it will likely have a form factor similar to the NESRGB. Unless the UPPU outputs HDMI at >=720p it serves no purpose other than someone's hobby project to create.

[Fudoh]

480p output doesn't gain you anything

at least it givess you the possibility of using a flatpanel TV at all without getting an additional upscaler. I guess that's the most important point.

Can you even state one TV that gives as sharp/clean of an image with a 480p component source as a 1080p digital source?

yes, last year's Sonys. Very impressive.

I don't see any use for the Universal PPU

it can be used to revive all those arcade boards slaughtered for their PPUs over the years.

Don't be so negative.

[ApolloBoy]

I don't see any use for the Universal PPU

Uhhh what

[darcagn]

I don't see any use for the Universal PPU

it can be used to revive all those arcade boards slaughtered for their PPUs over the years.

Don't be so negative.

Not to mention there's more than one kind of PPU due to palette differences in certain Versus games. Because the Universal PPU allows the user to update and swap out palettes, the Universal PPU should be able to power any Versus game as well. Granted, those PPUs are usually sold very cheaply because they cannot be used as an RGB PPU in an NES, but if you have a Versus setup I'm sure you would love to have a Universal PPU.

[ApolloBoy]

The way I see it, the Universal PPU is more for NES-based arcade hardware than anything else. It still would make for a nice alternative to the NESRGB though, but from I've seen it wouldn't be good for a top loader or AV Fami because of its size.

[darcagn]

The way I see it, the Universal PPU is more for NES-based arcade hardware than anything else. It still would make for a nice alternative to the NESRGB though, but from I've seen it wouldn't be good for a top loader or AV Fami because of its size.

What do you mean? In the pictures I've seen, the UniversalPPU prototype appears to be roughly the same size as the NESRGB. At least that's my perception.

[mufunyo]

Not to mention there's more than one kind of PPU due to palette differences in certain Versus games. Because the Universal PPU allows the user to update and swap out palettes, the Universal PPU should be able to power any Versus game as well.

Custom palettes sounds like a killer feature for the NESRGB revision 1.1?

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

[game-tech.us]

I paid for my order 11 days ago with EMS shipping so it could be tracked, but I still don't even have that.
What's the hold up Tim?

[Zets13]

I think he acknowledged a page or two back that it could take up to around 2 weeks for them to be shipped.

[ApolloBoy]

The way I see it, the Universal PPU is more for NES-based arcade hardware than anything else. It still would make for a nice alternative to the NESRGB though, but from I've seen it wouldn't be good for a top loader or AV Fami because of its size.

What do you mean? In the pictures I've seen, the UniversalPPU prototype appears to be roughly the same size as the NESRGB. At least that's my perception.

If you look at this picture, you can see it's much taller than the NESRGB, and in that orientation it wouldn't fit in a top loader or AV Fami.

[Jeppen]

I paid for my order 11 days ago with EMS shipping so it could be tracked, but I still don't even have that.
What's the hold up Tim?

He emailed me the 2nd of Jan asking to revise my address as it wasn't complete.
I did the same day, that's that last i know.

*Edit*

Btw Game Tech US, is your reset mod board thingy also working with NES-001?

[ApolloBoy]

I paid for my order 11 days ago with EMS shipping so it could be tracked, but I still don't even have that.
What's the hold up Tim?

With the sheer amount of orders he's been getting, I'm not surprised it's been taking a while.

[Skips]

I paid for my order 11 days ago with EMS shipping so it could be tracked, but I still don't even have that.
What's the hold up Tim?

With the sheer amount of orders he's been getting, I'm not surprised it's been taking a while.

This and Tim does this stuff on his own doesn't he. I don't know how it is there but in the states if you don't ship via the USPS website you have to hand fill out customs forms for each package when shipping out of the US. If hes having to fill out any sort of customs forms by hand for each package it does add a ton of time to the shipping process. Just 100 orders would be enough to swamp you for days worth of forms and packaging. People just need to calm down, he will get them out when he can. Handling so many packages at once takes a lot of time when you are doing it alone.

[game-tech.us]

Btw Game Tech US, is your reset mod board thingy also working with NES-001?

I had one that could be put in the front loader, don't really remember how many pcbs I had made or have left etc. I kind of abandoned the whole mod as you can do the same this with certain powerpak mappers.

[Elrinth]

I placed my order the 8th and he replied to me a bit later and said:
Postage to Europe normally takes 1-2 weeks but I have had a lot of orders recently so it will take about 2 weeks before your order is shipped.

game-tech.us I really like your videos btw. Also I think it was neat that you used the retro game cables output port (same as snes and n64) for your past nes rgb mod. I'm outta money so I'll be using whatever's being delivered even tho I'd like the same output port n' cable.

[darcagn]

What do you mean? In the pictures I've seen, the UniversalPPU prototype appears to be roughly the same size as the NESRGB. At least that's my perception.

If you look at this picture, you can see it's much taller than the NESRGB, and in that orientation it wouldn't fit in a top loader or AV Fami.

It's not...

We know that the NESRGB is 98.2mm x 52.5mm.

As you can see in that photo, the UniversalPPU roughly spans from the letter B to the letter H (see the side of the PlayChoice 10 board), so we can use that as a reference. Measuring on my PlayChoice 10 board, each jump from one letter to the next is exactly 0.5 inches, so B to H is 3 inches, which is 76.2mm. The width of the board appears to be about 1.25x the size of the PPU, which is 2 inches, so that puts our width at about 2.5 inches, which is about 63.5mm.

So 76.2mm x 63.5mm for the UniversalPPU vs. 98.2mm x 52.5mm for the NESRGB. 4,839 sqmm for the UniversalPPU, 5,156 sqmm for the NESRGB. That's a less than 10% difference, with the UniversalPPU actually coming ahead, but due to the fact that we don't have exact measurements for the UniveralPPU I would just leave it at "they are roughly the same size."

As for orientation, that board is just a prototype, and here is the official stance from the UniversalPPU FAQ:

Will it be compatible with/fit inside of [system]?

There are many NES/Famicom variants out in the wild. The biggest issue is mechanical compatibility – whether it will fit on the circuit board and back in the case of the original system. While I’m designing the Universal PPU to be compatible with as many systems as possible, it’s hard to say whether or not it will fit in all of them.

When the Universal PPU is released, I will state all known compatibility/incompatibility information.

The NESRGB only supported the front-loader when it came out as well, and adapter boards are needed. So just give the guy some time to finish his product before we start talking about how it won't fit or is incompatible with certain consoles.

I paid for my order 11 days ago with EMS shipping so it could be tracked, but I still don't even have that.
What's the hold up Tim?

I also ordered 11 days ago (12/30) and it still hasn't shipped.

I think he acknowledged a page or two back that it could take up to around 2 weeks for them to be shipped.

I'm not upset about it or anything but to spend $200 at an online store (not advertised as a pre-order) and not be told beforehand that it wouldn't be shipping for weeks kinda sucks. I know I'm just being impatient but I refreshed that site daily for 2 months waiting for new stock to get in and now I'm just being teased.

Not to mention there's more than one kind of PPU due to palette differences in certain Versus games. Because the Universal PPU allows the user to update and swap out palettes, the Universal PPU should be able to power any Versus game as well.

Custom palettes sounds like a killer feature for the NESRGB revision 1.1?

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

There's a few issues with that, though, in that the NESRGB is not compatible with the RGB PPU, and it likely cannot be made to be compatible very easily, because the NESRGB uses the EXT0-3 pins on the composite PPU to communicate with the PPU, and the RGB PPUs do not have this feature; instead they output red, green, and blue signals on those pins. The NESRGB would have to be practically redesigned from scratch because of that, which probably won't happen. So if people wanted to use the NESRGB in arcade systems then we might see a reversal of the previous trend: people gutting NES consoles for their composite PPUs to put in arcade systems.

[mufunyo]

There's a few issues with that, though, in that the NESRGB is not compatible with the RGB PPU, and it likely cannot be made to be compatible very easily, because the NESRGB uses the EXT0-3 pins on the composite PPU to communicate with the PPU, and the RGB PPUs do not have this feature; instead they output red, green, and blue signals on those pins. The NESRGB would have to be practically redesigned from scratch because of that, which probably won't happen. So if people wanted to use the NESRGB in arcade systems then we might see a reversal of the previous trend: people gutting NES consoles for their composite PPUs to put in arcade systems.

Tim has stated earlier in the thread that the NESRGB will be compatible with PC10 PCBs if you just make sure to lift the EXT0-3 pins from the motherboard, meaning the NESRGB is connected to those pins on the PPU, but the motherboard is not connected to those pins on the NESRGB.

[markfrizb]

There's a few issues with that, though, in that the NESRGB is not compatible with the RGB PPU, and it likely cannot be made to be compatible very easily, because the NESRGB uses the EXT0-3 pins on the composite PPU to communicate with the PPU, and the RGB PPUs do not have this feature; instead they output red, green, and blue signals on those pins. The NESRGB would have to be practically redesigned from scratch because of that, which probably won't happen. So if people wanted to use the NESRGB in arcade systems then we might see a reversal of the previous trend: people gutting NES consoles for their composite PPUs to put in arcade systems.

Tim has stated earlier in the thread that the NESRGB will be compatible with PC10 PCBs if you just make sure to lift the EXT0-3 pins from the motherboard, meaning the NESRGB is connected to those pins on the PPU, but the motherboard is not connected to those pins on the NESRGB.

Are you saying that we don't need a NES PPU for the pc10? That we can use the rgb PPU? Or are you saying both PPU's are usable?

When my boards arrive, I plan to try these in my pc10.

[mufunyo]

Are you saying that we don't need a NES PPU for the pc10? That we can use the rgb PPU? Or are you saying both PPU's are usable?

You need an NTSC NES PPU, and disconnect the VIDEO and EXT0-3 pins on the NESRGB<->PC10 side:

It will probably work with a NES PPU installed. It might be a good idea to prevent the EXT0-3 and VIDEO pins from connecting to the Playchoice motherboard. The amplifier circuits on the motherboard might interfere with something.

[nesfreak]

Was going to order a RGB PPU mod from game-tech.us when i heard about the UniversalPPU, so I decided to wait for a bit. Then summer came and the money was spent on more games for the collection, rather than getting a RGB modded NES.
Some months later, I once again found myself looking for options to get RGB for the NES, this time the NESRGB is around and now also ordered.

Can't wait for the NESRGB to drop down the mailbox, I plan on using my AV Famicom for it, tho I'am not 100% sure how to wire the multiout.
Does anyone know if there is a schematic or video of a installation with the multiout on the AV Famicom? Should any traces be cut?

Would game-tech.us make a nice video of this, perhaps?

PS. Sorry game-tech.us for loss of commission on my behalf, but I think we all agree that this is the best solution to preserve the old PC10 motherboards.
PPS. game-tech.us love your videos! And I want that Sony PVM

[viletim]

I paid for my order 11 days ago with EMS shipping so it could be tracked, but I still don't even have that.
What's the hold up Tim?

I also ordered 11 days ago (12/30) and it still hasn't shipped. :(

I haven't sent any orders yet. I'll start on Monday.

I think he acknowledged a page or two back that it could take up to around 2 weeks for them to be shipped.

I'm not upset about it or anything but to spend $200 at an online store (not advertised as a pre-order) and not be told beforehand that it wouldn't be shipping for weeks kinda sucks. I know I'm just being impatient but I refreshed that site daily for 2 months waiting for new stock to get in and now I'm just being teased. :lol:

I put the shop up as soon as I received boards from the factory (and tested a sample). I could not have put them up sooner as that is too risky. If I had delayed putting them up until after testing and other preparations then everything would happen much slower. Real orders and real money makes things happen much faster than mere potential.

I would like to make it clear that this is a hobby business, not my full time occupation. I only have three days a week to spend on it (weekend + 1). Even though I do have more help now, the larger volume of orders means the delays will be about the same as the first batch.

[kamiboy]

The fact that people cannot figure out the above on their own really baffles the old mind.

[opt2not]

^ this. People need to chill out.

Thanks for the updates Tim.

[Voultar]

This will be a day long remembered.

I'm in the final stages of replicating the AV Famicom multi-out panel, as well as the multi-out female connector.

It's going to look so cherry!

[darcagn]

There's a few issues with that, though, in that the NESRGB is not compatible with the RGB PPU, and it likely cannot be made to be compatible very easily, because the NESRGB uses the EXT0-3 pins on the composite PPU to communicate with the PPU, and the RGB PPUs do not have this feature; instead they output red, green, and blue signals on those pins. The NESRGB would have to be practically redesigned from scratch because of that, which probably won't happen. So if people wanted to use the NESRGB in arcade systems then we might see a reversal of the previous trend: people gutting NES consoles for their composite PPUs to put in arcade systems.

Tim has stated earlier in the thread that the NESRGB will be compatible with PC10 PCBs if you just make sure to lift the EXT0-3 pins from the motherboard, meaning the NESRGB is connected to those pins on the PPU, but the motherboard is not connected to those pins on the NESRGB.

Yes, it will work with PC10 PCBs if you use a composite PPU, which is what I just wrote in the post you quoted at the end. You would still need to rob a composite PPU from an NES system because an RGB PPU will not work with the NESRGB board.

I put the shop up as soon as I received boards from the factory (and tested a sample). I could not have put them up sooner as that is too risky. If I had delayed putting them up until after testing and other preparations then everything would happen much slower. Real orders and real money makes things happen much faster than mere potential.

I would like to make it clear that this is a hobby business, not my full time occupation. I only have three days a week to spend on it (weekend + 1). Even though I do have more help now, the larger volume of orders means the delays will be about the same as the first batch.

I understand, and as I said, I'm not upset or anything. But look at it from our perspective: you're holding thousands of our dollars right now (based on order numbers, at least) so you should have let us know around when they were going to ship when the storefront came up. That's all. Keep up the great work and don't stress yourself out, sir.

[leonk]

... look at it from our perspective: you're holding thousands of our dollars right now ..

Read his message again. "Money makes things happen faster" I read this as following:

- money paid by customers was used to pay for the 2nd batch - without the online store, he wouldn't be able to do so (Do you have thousands of disposable cash to pay for PCBs to be made, stuffed, and shipped to you?)
- it sounds like he hired extra help - again .. money required. As this is a hobby, he used your money to do so.

This is no different than many arcade group buys. A person arranges it, you pay up front, 8 weeks later your machine is on a dock coming off a boat. The money for these arcade group buys isn't in the arranger's pocket - they're in the seller's pocket.

Tim could have always done smaller batches at a time. But the result would be less PCB's available for everyone, and the cost much much more (again, volume = cheaper price to everyone).

Not sure why people think that these PCBs cost 5$ and Tim is pocketing 90$ .. Have a heart. It's just a hobby for him. He doesn't owe anyone anything.

[Fudoh]

People need to chill out.

this especially! What's the rush, everybody ? The Famicom just celebrated it's 30th anniversary. Do a few more weeks of waiting for glorious RGB hurt this much ?