Three MAME configurations

[cjug]

This is like hardware/off topic.

What would you say are the advantages and disadvantages of these configurations for MAME:

1. PC VGA@640x480->computer CRT monitor (I believe you have the hardware scanlines here right?)
2. PC VGA@640x480->SLG3000->LCD/Plasma (You don't lose any information because of the two lines with identical content right?)
3. PC VGA@640x480->Extron Super Emotia or similar->RGB monitor

What are you using for MAME config right now?

[fagin]

1. Won't give you hardware scanlines - these CRT's are different in that respect to CRT TV's.
2. Works well.
3. Works well, but you'll run in to line offset issues - you'll need to alter line offset via MAME to correct.
4. Another option and that is MAME using HLSL with a LCD/Plasma - which dependant on your PC spec maybe the best.

There are other options as well (using soft15 or an ArcadeVGA card) and we could go on for ages about all the various methods.

Option 4 maybe the best option if you're not a purist and have a decent spec PC.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, you can get a scanlined look on a VGA CRT in MAME with some tweaks; I think there are two methods - using the mask overlay, and using HLSL. HLSL might add a slight amount of video generation lag (via the graphics card), dunno.

[bulbousbeard]

A G-Sync monitor is going to be the best way to run MAME. G-Sync monitors will run at any refresh rate without any tearing, so every game in MAME will run glass smooth. So far, it looks like the G-Sync monitors are all 1ms 144hz panels, G-Sync reduces input lag down to almost nothing, and you'll probably be able to use GroovyMAME's framedelay option with a G-Sync monitor to reduce input lag almost entirely.

Combine that with black frame insertion to eliminate LCD persistence/blurring and HLSL, and you have a virtually perfect display.

Note that in MAME 0.152, HLSL's prescale was fixed so that it's no longer blurry. It looks absolutely gorgeous now.

http://i.imgur.com/wNlg83e.jpg

I recently got a WG CRT fixed for my arcade cabinet, but the next time something goes out or needs maintenance, I'm going to replace it with a G-Sync monitor. The technology is finally available to replace CRTs.

[fagin]

That image above is way too sharp and is far removed from a 15khz CRT type image.

[bulbousbeard]

That image above is way too sharp and is far removed from a 15khz CRT type image.

Not really. It's just that most people's CRT monitors at this point are completely trucked and not displaying anywhere near as sharply as they were when they were new.

[cjug]

3. Works well, but you'll run in to line offset issues - you'll need to alter line offset via MAME to correct.

Or it may be via an RGB interface, as Fudoh mentioned at his web site.

4. Another option and that is MAME using HLSL with a LCD/Plasma - which dependant on your PC spec maybe the best.
There are other options as well (using soft15 or an ArcadeVGA card) and we could go on for ages about all the various methods.

I might add another one: PC VGA@640x480->SLG3000->computer CRT monitor. What do you think about that? I understand you like CRT technology.

Option 4 maybe the best option if you're not a purist and have a decent spec PC.

I am not sure if I am a purist, but I tend to prefer CRT for old games...

[fagin]

That image above is way too sharp and is far removed from a 15khz CRT type image.

Not really. It's just that most people's CRT monitors at this point are completely trucked and not displaying anywhere near as sharply as they were when they were new.

Trust me... that image is far too sharp for a 240p CRT image, as in what you're trying to emulate. It has nothing to do with how sharp a CRT should be when new.

The art of video emulation is being aware of what the original equipment/technology looks and behaves like. Not what you think it should look like. You image is typical of an "emulated" look and is not representative of the look of a CRT.

[fagin]

3. Works well, but you'll run in to line offset issues - you'll need to alter line offset via MAME to correct.

Or it may be via a RGB interface, as Fudoh mentioned at his web site.

4. Another option and that is MAME using HLSL with a LCD/Plasma - which dependant on your PC spec maybe the best.
There are other options as well (using soft15 or an ArcadeVGA card) and we could go on for ages about all the various methods.

I might add another one: PC VGA@640x480->SLG3000->computer CRT monitor. What do you think about that? I understand you like CRT technology.

Option 4 maybe the best option if you're not a purist and have a decent spec PC.

I am not sure if I am a purist, but I tend to prefer CRT for old games...

If you have access to a computer CRT, then I would certainly suggest using MAME and HLSL. It can give a very pleasing look.

No need for a SLG3000 imo when using MAME. Even the basic scanline overlays for MAME work well, although you don't always get perfect scanline alignment.... better to correctly set-up HLSL.

For most people, MAME with HLSL set correctly will be the way forward imo (and can be used with either a PC CRT or LCD etc).

[bulbousbeard]

That image above is way too sharp and is far removed from a 15khz CRT type image.

Not really. It's just that most people's CRT monitors at this point are completely trucked and not displaying anywhere near as sharply as they were when they were new.

Trust me... that image is far too sharp for a 240p CRT image, as in what you're trying to emulate. It has nothing to do with how sharp a CRT should be when new.

The art of video emulation is being aware of what the original equipment/technology looks and behaves like. Not what you think it should look like. You image is typical of an "emulated" look and is not representative of the look of a CRT.

Trust me. I own two 15khz arcade monitors. I know what they look like when they're in perfect condition, I know what they look like when they're shot, and I know what I want it to look like. A "typical" emulator doesn't have perfectly aligned scanlines and color bleeding.

HLSL settings are completely customizable. There's a defocus setting, and you can make it as sharp or blurry as you want to.

[lettuce]

That image above is way too sharp and is far removed from a 15khz CRT type image.

Not really. It's just that most people's CRT monitors at this point are completely trucked and not displaying anywhere near as sharply as they were when they were new.

Trust me... that image is far too sharp for a 240p CRT image, as in what you're trying to emulate. It has nothing to do with how sharp a CRT should be when new.

The art of video emulation is being aware of what the original equipment/technology looks and behaves like. Not what you think it should look like. You image is typical of an "emulated" look and is not representative of the look of a CRT.

Could be fixed by adding some defocus in the hlsl maybe, try

Defocus 1.0,1.0

And then post a pic

[lettuce]

A G-Sync monitor is going to be the best way to run MAME. G-Sync monitors will run at any refresh rate without any tearing, so every game in MAME will run glass smooth. So far, it looks like the G-Sync monitors are all 1ms 144hz panels, G-Sync reduces input lag down to almost nothing, and you'll probably be able to use GroovyMAME's framedelay option with a G-Sync monitor to reduce input lag almost entirely.

There has been reports that the g sync monitors didnt work when less than 30hz...or was it lower than 30fps

I too am interested to see what the g sync can bring to the emulation market

Note that in MAME 0.152, HLSL's prescale was fixed so that it's no longer blurry. It looks absolutely gorgeous now.

So we dont have to mod the Prescale.FX file anymore than, from Linear to none??

Now only if they would add the option to adjust the geometry of the screen for vertical games to achieve this without editing the post.fx as well.....

[Overkill]

What are you using for MAME config right now?

I also think the better solution for you right now (if you a decent PC) is using HLSL with any LCD/crt monitor. You can check this thread for the latest devolepments in HLSL http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45026

I have a PC running MAME this way, on a 40" screen, just to enjoy the progress in this CRT emulation, but for playing i have another PC with an ATI Radeon 9250 (you can buy it cheap on ebay), with modified drivers (CRT_emudriver), this allows the PC to run several low resolutions mode. This PC and the special version of mame "Groovymame" gives you the best way to enjoy retrogaming and scanlines. And in the end is much cheaper than an Extron Emotia.

I also have tested all of that, SLG 3000, Extron Emotia, and nothing compares to Groovymame + Crt_emudriver.

[cjug]

Not really. It's just that most people's CRT monitors at this point are completely trucked and not displaying anywhere near as sharply as they were when they were new.

Trust me... that image is far too sharp for a 240p CRT image, as in what you're trying to emulate. It has nothing to do with how sharp a CRT should be when new.

The art of video emulation is being aware of what the original equipment/technology looks and behaves like. Not what you think it should look like. You image is typical of an "emulated" look and is not representative of the look of a CRT.

Trust me. I own two 15khz arcade monitors. I know what they look like when they're in perfect condition, I know what they look like when they're shot, and I know what I want it to look like. A "typical" emulator doesn't have perfectly aligned scanlines and color bleeding.

HLSL settings are completely customizable. There's a defocus setting, and you can make it as sharp or blurry as you want to.

Interesting. I don't know, I don't have an arcade monitor. However, I had an RGB monitor, the Atari SC1224, I can remember it had a very crisp image and vibrant colors, but may be a bit less sharp than your example. Perhaps the discussion here is more related to personal tastes?

[cjug]

So we dont have to mod the Prescale.FX file anymore than, from Linear to none??

Now only if they would add the option to adjust the geometry of the screen for vertical games to achieve this without editing the post.fx as well.....

Don't get me wrong, but I feel this is not emulation related, but to try to recreate your childhood?

[cjug]

What are you using for MAME config right now?

I also think the better solution for you right now (if you a decent PC) is using HLSL with any LCD/crt monitor. You can check this thread for the latest devolepments in HLSL http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45026

I have a PC running MAME this way, on a 40" screen, just to enjoy the progress in this CRT emulation, but for playing i have another PC with an ATI Radeon 9250 (you can buy it cheap on ebay), with modified drivers (CRT_emudriver), this allows the PC to run several low resolutions mode. This PC and the special version of mame "Groovymame" gives you the best way to enjoy retrogaming and scanlines. And in the end is much cheaper than an Extron Emotia.

I also have tested all of that, SLG 3000, Extron Emotia, and nothing compares to Groovymame + Crt_emudriver.

Thank you. Definitely, I will have to play more with HLSL settings. On the other hand, I will try some combinations with Groovymame that you mention. I can even add to the mix the SLG3000. I don't have one of those yet, but I have a Dreamcast, so...

[cools]

Iirc we need 8k LCDs to simulate CRTs properly.

Software scanlines on a 31k CRT screen are the next best thing.

[bulbousbeard]

If you're a purist, you'll want to use a real arcade monitor, because LCD pixels just don't look like CRT pixels, and even with 8k resolution, they never really will. The technologies are just different. Also, given that basically every monitor had a slightly different shadow mask, which one do you try to simulate? There's really no scientifically correct answer there.

Having said that, though, I think being a purist is kind of absurd. I'm more interested in the games looking as GOOD as they possibly can. Here are some random thoughts about the games looking as good as they possibly can.

* Screen curvature fucking sucks. Playing Earthworm Jim on my 25" WG arcade monitor SUCKS because the fish bowl effect is so awful. It's really distracting and actually gives me a headache. Curved screens really aren't a good thing.

* Shadowmasks are actually ugly, and it's a GOOD THING to be able to get rid of them. In games with a lot of scrolling, shadowmasks are distracting because you can see that ugly pattern over everything. Other than being able to say, "this is how it used to be," I don't think there's actually anything GOOD about shadowmasks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM_s75JLwBg

This video really shows off just how UGLY shadowmasks are. When the game is scrolling, it's totally distracting. I can't stand that effect.

* Unlike most of the defects inherent to CRT monitors, scanlines are desirable simply because the low resolution art relied on them to give graphics the illusion of being more detailed than they actually were. If you're trying to make games look as good as possible, you actually want the scanline defect.

* You need to reduce input lag as much as possible, because the games weren't designed with laggy controls in mind.

* You need to reduce motion blur as much as possible, because a lot of the games have fast moving scrolling or objects, and you don't want them to be blurry.

[ninn]

what are you talking about, bulbousbeard?!
Not a single point is related to the OP's question ...


Just accept that you have been spoiled by emulation....

[ninn]

... and If you want to sell us, that a screenshot taken entirely in software - no monitor involved at all - looks just like an arcademonitor, no one will take you seriously.

[ckong]

I use a lowres 15K studio RGB monitor (bencao) or a real 15K arcade monitor (in my NAC), together with soft15khz, an XP pc, an older radeon HD video card and of course Groovymame. Best way to go imho. Please forget VGA (31K) and LCD.

[Ex_Mosquito]

I use a lowres 15K studio RGB monitor (bencao) or a real 15K arcade monitor (in my NAC), together with soft15khz, an XP pc, an older radeon HD video card and of course Groovymame. Best way to go imho. Please forget VGA (31K) and LCD.

To get the advantages of GroovMame on a CRT you need to use the custom CRT_Emudrivers as well. soft15khz is redundant, you don't need it when using the CRT_Emudrivers.

I have a NAC as well with Groovy + CRT_Drivers. It's pretty much sex on legs

http://youtu.be/BwDJtjrwKHI

[ckong]

I use a lowres 15K studio RGB monitor (bencao) or a real 15K arcade monitor (in my NAC), together with soft15khz, an XP pc, an older radeon HD video card and of course Groovymame. Best way to go imho. Please forget VGA (31K) and LCD.

To get the advantages of GroovMame on a CRT you need to use the custom CRT_Emudrivers as well. soft15khz is redundant, you don't need it when using the CRT_Emudrivers.

I have a NAC as well with Groovy + CRT_Drivers. It's pretty much sex on legs

http://youtu.be/BwDJtjrwKHI

you're right, I used soft15k in a previous configuration and I use the CRT Emudriver now also. And yes, it is sexy.

[XC-3730C]

Just curious, but what kind of PC specs are people using these days? I am gonna hopefully get back into MAME after I dug up my LCD topguns during a recent move. I am downloading a .150 set including CHDs, so I will be all set soon.

Oh and I want to use my 37" Mitsubishi CRT 15khz/31khz monitor (model is the same as my nick).