ALT RAMMBOCK development thread

[hybridmink]

Hey guys, I've been developing some game ideas over the past decade or so, and I think it's time I just came out and got some help on getting started. One of these ideas is a shmup called "ALT RAMMBOCK" or "old battering ram" in German. I've been doing freelance illustration for a couple years, but most of my personal drawings have been for game ideas like this one. Please bear with me as I've only worked on other people's games as an artist and never actually started up my own. Here is some concept art of the main ship and characters:

The ALT RAMMBOCK:
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/ ... 6wrkvd.png
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/ ... 3e00ia.jpg

The pilot:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/ ... 6a58b6.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/ ... 5wghu9.jpg

Luciliae, ground control:
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/ ... 6cww9j.png
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/ ... 51juzm.jpg

If you'd like to see more of my recent work, unrelated to the game, you can check out my gallery here: http://hybridmink.deviantart.com/gallery/

Anyways, the idea for the game is derived from the things I love in shooters, but have never seen in a single game:

1. The atmosphere and storytelling of Einhander
2. the puzzle-like bullet patterns of a Treasure shooter
3. the multiple scrolling directions of Salamander or Philosoma (without the terrible gameplay)
4. those pilebunker ships from R-type Final
* on-rails segments similar to Starfox or Panzer Dragoon

That last one is a stretch as it would probably require a separate engine and significantly more work, but the first 4 should all work in a 2D environment. I'll elaborate on those points below.

1. I won't go too deep into the story of the game, but the idea is old technology meeting the new, to form a hybrid ship. A ship that can bridge the gaps between 2 warring planets. You are the pilot, a (mostly human) cyborg transporting a top secret ship across enemy lines to your federation homeworld. You are intercepted by "the enemy" and crash land on their planet. You discover an old, abandoned ship...yatta yatta yatta, you're now helping the enemy with a ship made from the parts of both cultures. Luciliae talks to you during missions (similar to popups during quiet times like Radiant Silvergun and Radirgy). The story is delivered this way, as well as visually through the world around you. After finishing the story, you would unlock a mode that eliminates all story so you can play quickly for score. I'd probably like to hide a code to access it right from the start too.

2. I'm not going to lie. My 2 favorite shooters are Gradius V and Ikaruga. I'm a huge Treasure fan and I've always found their bullet patterns to be the most satisfying. The most important element of the bullets in ALT RAMMBOCK is that they are clearly distinguishable. Things will obviously get crazy over time, but for the most part, you'll need some memorization as well as quick relfexes. I'm not looking for a ton of screen filling bullet scenarios like in Cave games. I want to capture the satisfaction of weaving through multiple waves and knowing that you MEANT to avoid them. As for gameplay gimmicks like chaining colors or deflecting/absorbing bullets; that's not part of the plan right now. I'll get into the main gimmick in #4.

3. When I say multiple directions, I'm mainly referring to top-down and sidescrolling. Side-scrolling tends to be a bit more strategic and vertical tends to rely more on reflexes. I feel like alternating these views will keep the gameplay fresh and allow for different vistas and enemy designs. I mentioned Philosoma because that game just tried every angle imaginable. I feel it was a hot pile of garbage, but it was still trying new things in a stagnating genre. I'd like to do it right. The on-rails view would be tough to get right, but I would only plan on using it for boss fights to really drive home the destructive force of the pilebunker...

4. So the ship and game are named after the main gimmick, the old battering ram. Storywise, the ship is important because it's the only thing that can penetrate the stronger enemy shields. Some enemies force you to get right up in there and punch them in the face to do any damage. This forces you to think about which enemies to take down first, so that you can get up close to the guy you can't hurt with bullets. Do you rush in and take him out first, or do you kill the small fry so that you can safely advance? Boss battles revolve around this mechanic with specific weak spots that can only be damaged with the battering ram. I'm considering an invincible lock-on mechanic that you can spend meter to perform and chain "rams" between adjacent enemies. It's all very early, but I think there's a lot of potential here.

So what do I need to get started?

Well I have the basic ideas in place concerning story, gameplay, and characters. I will provide all or most of the art assets including ships, effects, character profiles, UI, and some backgrounds. Backgrounds aren't my strong suit, so it would be good to have some help there if possible. I have someone that can provide music, but I will probably look to the community for some more. I would definitely need a programmer and probably a writer. I'm not really sure who else.

If you are interested and would like to know more, please email me at hybridmink@gmail.com. Feel free to provide any examples of previous work. I've been around these forums (not posting much) for years so I hope I haven't violated any rules with this post! I look forward to hearing from anyone that is interested in working on this with me or simply has any advice. Thanks!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm not looking for a ton of screen filling bullet scenarios like in Cave games. I want to capture the satisfaction of weaving through multiple waves and knowing that you MEANT to avoid them.

I'm confused - what Cave games exactly are you referring to here? Ikaruga has plenty of patterns that take up more screen real estate and are harder to dodge than Cave tends to, whereas a lot of Cave stuff is aimed and isn't nearly as daunting as it may appear to someone who hasn't played much of their games. Like in Touhou, most of the screen filling stuff is there to look pretty with only a small fraction actually threatening to ever hit you, and you do get the satisfaction of getting through difficult waves dodging stuff how you meant to. I'm not sure if your comment is implying Cave style stuff is mostly luck dodging or something else. A lot of stuff that initially looks crazy can either be tapdodged or avoided by knowing how the pattern comes out and where to position yourself.

Boss battles revolve around this mechanic with specific weak spots that can only be damaged with the battering ram. I'm considering an invincible lock-on mechanic that you can spend meter to perform and chain "rams" between adjacent enemies. It's all very early, but I think there's a lot of potential here.

Shmups with melee attacks are interesting, but they're very hard to incorporate. Strania honestly would've been better if you always had a sword available so you always had that option (and dual swords didn't reduce swing speed so much). A lot of shmups don't have melee, but simply incorporate a similar pointblank for massive damage mechanic via either a spreadshot that works great upclose (Cho Ren Sha) or simply an attack with a damage bonus at close range (DoDonPachi laser aura). There's also something like Phantasmagoria of Flower View's Youmu Konpaku, who gets a close range charge attack that does damage and cancels bullets caught in the slash, so you can keep shooting, or stop to fire to deliberately use a strong attack or defensively clear a dangerous attack.

Forcing players to use the melee by making certain bosses/enemies invulnerable to everything except melee would certainly motivate people to use it, but I'd be worried it would limit the amount of creativity or flexibility in the gameplay. Look at Ikaruga - you get a damage bonus when attacking an opposite colour so speedkills rely on opposite element attacks, but you can attack a white enemy with white shots and it'll still do damage (while absorbing their shots, you gain safety but lose offense), or you could even beat the game without shooting at all (the game is designed to allow this). It's a good example of a system that has incentives for taking advantage of what it offers, without seriously hindering people who aren't as good at taking advantage of all the mechanics.

[hybridmink]

That comment wasn't meant to bash Cave games at all. I think I worded things poorly there as I know things definitely get crazy in later levels of Ikaruga too. I also think lots of Cave games can be very satisfying, and Ibara is one of my all time favs as well. There may be 1 or 2 Cave shooters that I haven't actually played, but from what I have, I don't find quite as much satisfaction in the bullet patterns as I do with ones by Treasure. It's not a huge gap mind you, I just wanted to get that across for those that also see that distinction. As for "luck dodging," I do think that is happens to a lot of people, especially novices. I don't think it happens as much in games like Gradius and R-Type. Though maybe it's just me?

One thing I will say though, is that Touhou DOES feel mindless and I would like to avoid patterns like that at all costs.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

One thing I will say though, is that Touhou DOES feel mindless and I would like to avoid patterns like that at all costs.

Touhou gets a lot of hate for the fandom's tendency to focus on the characters over the actual games themselves, but you're complaining that the patterns are mindless? What Touhou games have you played? What difficulty modes? Even the earliest shmup in the series, Story of Eastern Wonderland, is a lot of fun to play even if it's lacking in polish, and Lotus Land Story and Mystic Square have a lot of really neat stuff to dodge. The later Windows games are just as good - while some of them may do some unusual things with the gameplay (tying Power and bombs together in MoF and SA, the ufo mechanic in UFO, making scoring all about bombing the shit out of everything in Ten Desires, etc), the patterns really are quite diverse and generally fun to learn.

I'm not trying to be all <3 CAVU & 2HU. If you don't like Touhou's style, fine, but I just prefer more specific criticisms to these really, really broad generalizations. I don't know what "mindless" means when the series spans so many different games. Touhou actually has a fair bit of variation in terms of bullet pattern style through the series.

[hybridmink]

I'll admit that I haven't given Touhou a fair chance. I've only seen videos and watched other people play. I considered trying it myself, but didn't find the game to be too interesting. If you say they're better than they seem, I'll have to give them a shot some time.

I didn't see the need for specific criticisms in my initial post as I was really trying to establish what I want the gameplay to feel like. Comparing to other games is the easiest way to catch someone's attention. I brought up plenty of specifics in terms of what i DO want in the game, so I'd hope that most people would pay attention to that. I actually just remembered Ketsui after my last post and I could honestly say that it has some of my favorite patterns in any shooter.

[Rozyrg]

Great looking work there! This is pretty much where I was a few years back (albeit noticeably less competent in digital art!), just lots of concept art and ideas for potential games swimming around.

Finding a coder who needs an artist shouldn't be too tough for you; but there's always the possibility of a creative war of wills in those situations, especially if you're really dead set on a specific direction. The best way to flesh out these ideas exactly how you want them is to just do it yourself, honestly. The road there isn't as difficult as you might imagine... hell, if I can code, anyone can.

[n0rtygames]

Shit, I was looking at your DA profile just the other day...

[hybridmink]

Rozyrg: hmm, so you're saying I should try to do it all myself? A couple years ago I actually considered making a fighting game myself using an existing engine. I realized it would take forever to do it all myself. I'd like to just concentrate on the art side, but we'll see what happens.

norty: ha!

[Rozyrg]

Oh god, you don't want to start off making a fighting game, trust me! Well, not unless it's something like Yie Ar Kung Fu or Karate Champ. There's a good reason they're fairly rare amongst indie/hobbyist devs. They tend to be really art asset heavy, for one, which is a huge, huge barrier even if you only want a modest sized roster. I've had about 5 years experience in GM and I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how to even build one, TBH.

Shmups are a really good starting point, though, especially as you can do something as fundamental as Space Invaders or Galaga and, at the very least, have a framework to keep building on up until you have something close to what you actually want.

I can totally understand not having the inclination to learn programming (even novice friendly stuff like GM can take a lot of time and patience); but I think you should consider giving it a shot.

[hybridmink]

Thanks for the advice. I have 3 main game ideas I want to get made and I decided to bump the shmup up to first because it seemed like the "easiest" one to start with. I'll keep GM in mind, but I would like to concentrate on art if possible. We'll see what happens.

[beermat]

Have you made a decision as to whether to do the engine yourself? It will eat up a lot of your time, but the rest of the project will anyway so don't let that be a deal breaker. Making a good game is going to take a long time, you just have to accept that

[hybridmink]

I probably won't work on the engine myself, but I would if I had no other choice.

[Kaleb Parham]

Ok, I'm just going to create a quick control scheme and throw some concepts at you.
A: Fires Primary Weapons (quick shot, wide shot, stuff like that. You pick two at the start of the game.)
B: Fires Secondary Weapons (homing missiles, master laser, stuff like that)
A+B: Battering Ram (The Ramming Attack)
C: Switch Primary Weapon
B+C: Hyper Mode

-Primary Weapons are weaker. Killing enemies with them drops gems that can be collected for power. It can push enemies back who use shields.
-Secondary Weapons are stronger. Killing enemies with them drops high point items. Collecting enough high point items allows you to activate actives Hyper Mode. Requires 10% power meter.
-The Battering Ram destroys anything it touches, including enemies who can't be destroyed using either weapon,bullets, and even terrain (to reveal secrets, or can drop and fall in the horizontal stages). Killing enemies with this adds to a chain that does not drop (unless you die) as well as gives you power cells, which increases the power of your ship. Requires 25% power meter.

Hyper Mode last for a limited time. During Hyper Mode, your Power Meter will quickly recharge after using any attack that requires it, all kills drop master gems which are worth 10000 a pop and extends Hyper Mode for 1/3th of a second, and the Primary Weapon is temporarily stronger. Of course, during Hyper Mode, enemies attack more fiercely. To counteract this, enemy bullets automatically disappear as soon as Hyper Mode is activated and once it ends.

The rail shooting sections serve more as bonus areas so to speak.

Just some ideas thrown ya. Have fun and best of luck on your game.

[Kaleb Parham]

I'd love to help you out bro. I use Game Maker myself, but I'm working on a three other games (Project Eagle, Cosmic Fighters 2, unnamed survival horror platformer)
Sooooooo I'll make you a deal. I'll help you code this game if you draw the sprites for one of the above mentioned games. We'll work on your game first (depending on how fast you can draw, we can have this finished and polished in less than a year, even if I periodically work on these other games).
I can also help with the story. I'm all about surprise twist and turns.

[hybridmink]

Hey Kaleb. I can see you've put some thought into this. I think you have the right idea for the ramming attack and how important it is, but I had something simpler in mind for the controls and scoring. You have 1 regular shot, which is a sort of double laser. You have the ramming attack. And you have 2 special attacks that both take from the same meter. Basically like Ikaruga, you can charge your meter and use it for your "bomb" when needed. I haven't thought about how it should be charged, but I'd rather not have the player collect anything...at all. Points, powerups, nothing. I'd prefer less screen clutter to keep the player on track of attacking enemies and staying alive.

Anyways, this bomb would function 2 ways depending on the situation. It could either emit a pulse-like shockwave that knocks enemies back and into others, or you can use it to lock on ram into an enemy with brief invincibility. The idea is that you can chain rams between enemies and score big. The pulse is mostly a "get off of me!" attack since it will clear the screen easier, but you don't get as many points for kills this way. You could think of the invincible ram as a hyper mode of sorts, but I'd have to try it out and see what makes for the most fun mechanic.

Your battering ram ideas sound pretty good and I like the idea of more meter management. Sort of like using an EX move instead of a super in fighting games. I'll admit that one of the driving factors of this game was for it to be appreciated both visually and for its story. Making it fun to play and replay for score is important, but I really want the characters and environment to resonate with the player.

I'd love to get the rail shooter segments in, but it doesn't seem too feasible without a decent sized team of people. It would also require 3D models and large textured skyboxes.

Anyways, I think your ideas for hyper modes and the ram are really good and could be integrated somehow. I am not a sprite artist and my experience with 2D animation is very limited. I've had some trouble drawing the frames for the Rammbock and have only gotten the main one done. It's also hand drawn so it takes a while. At this point I may need to find someone that can create actual sprite art based on my drawings. Sprites would probably look better in an engine anyways.

Let me know what you think. Thanks for the input.

[Kaleb Parham]

Hey Kaleb. I can see you've put some thought into this. I think you have the right idea for the ramming attack and how important it is, but I had something simpler in mind for the controls and scoring. You have 1 regular shot, which is a sort of double laser. You have the ramming attack. And you have 2 special attacks that both take from the same meter. Basically like Ikaruga, you can charge your meter and use it for your "bomb" when needed. I haven't thought about how it should be charged, but I'd rather not have the player collect anything...at all. Points, powerups, nothing. I'd prefer less screen clutter to keep the player on track of attacking enemies and staying alive.

Anyways, this bomb would function 2 ways depending on the situation. It could either emit a pulse-like shockwave that knocks enemies back and into others, or you can use it to lock on ram into an enemy with brief invincibility. The idea is that you can chain rams between enemies and score big. The pulse is mostly a "get off of me!" attack since it will clear the screen easier, but you don't get as many points for kills this way. You could think of the invincible ram as a hyper mode of sorts, but I'd have to try it out and see what makes for the most fun mechanic.

Your battering ram ideas sound pretty good and I like the idea of more meter management. Sort of like using an EX move instead of a super in fighting games. I'll admit that one of the driving factors of this game was for it to be appreciated both visually and for its story. Making it fun to play and replay for score is important, but I really want the characters and environment to resonate with the player.

I'd love to get the rail shooter segments in, but it doesn't seem too feasible without a decent sized team of people. It would also require 3D models and large textured skyboxes.

Anyways, I think your ideas for hyper modes and the ram are really good and could be integrated somehow. I am not a sprite artist and my experience with 2D animation is very limited. I've had some trouble drawing the frames for the Rammbock and have only gotten the main one done. It's also hand drawn so it takes a while. At this point I may need to find someone that can create actual sprite art based on my drawings. Sprites would probably look better in an engine anyways.

Let me know what you think. Thanks for the input.

I've never been a big fan of bombs, but lets see...

A (tap): Static Shock
A (held): Double Laser
B: Battering Ram
C: Pulse Wave
B+C: Hyper Ram
A+B+C: Hyper Mode

Ok, so taking everything into consideration, tapping A will release a quick short ranged (but not point blank) piercing laser, like Mars Matrix, except not as strong. Killing an enemy with it absorbs the enemies energy. The absorbed energy goes into a power meter. Once the power meter is filled, the double laser becomes a bit stronger.
The Battering Ram uses 25% of the meter. Both the Pulse Wave and Hyper Ram require 100% of the meter. In order to encourage people to use both, the meter does not take a long time to be filled.

To keep the story and characters mixed into gameplay, the player is given sub-missions during each stage and how well the player plays also affects the plot, regardless of sub-missions. Completing the sub-mission may give more details about the plot, and the plot details can also aid the player in gameplay (giving out important details about enemies/ bosses, receiving upgrades, etc.). Some stages also have alternate routes depending on how the story is progressing. It isn't forcing the player between multiple endings, it's deepening the plot and extending the story for skilled players. This keeps players involved in the story and makes the game more interesting.

I believe GM allows vertex sprites, which can be resized without ruining the image. Of course, it uses more memory. I would have to double check that though.

[n0rtygames]

You should focus on producing the graphics or the game should never be made. Ideas are cheap. You have to stop thinking that the game will magically happen with minimal effort.

At this point I may need to find someone that can create actual sprite art based on my drawings. Sprites would probably look better in an engine anyways.

o_O But I told you we have this... you just need to make the base graphics.

TL;DR
* Do more graphics!
* Nobody cares about the story, they just want boom.

This game wont happen if you just keep talking about it. Last time we spoke on Skype I told you I have an entire engine ready to go and it just needs the art. Since then, one graphic in about a month really isn't boding well for the future of your game.. you gotta just stop putting it off and actually put pen to paper. Simple as that.

[railslave]

* Nobody cares about the story, they just want boom.

<<Took off every zig



<<felt like Tom Cruise

[hybridmink]

You should focus on producing the graphics or the game should never be made. Ideas are cheap. You have to stop thinking that the game will magically happen with minimal effort.

I don't think I ever said that I expected it to be made on its own. Personal issues aside, I was having trouble creating different frames of animation. If you're saying you have someone that can draw pixel art based on my drawings, then that's great! It would mean I wouldn't have to attempt separate frames of animation myself and the drawings themselves could be less detailed.

As for the amount of work that's been done, it was you that said I should be taking commissions whenever possible. Couple that with my being sick for the past 4 weeks (seriously, what is up with doctors?) and my unemployment being suddenly ripped away as of next week, things haven't exactly been easy going this past month.

Story is significant for this game and I have no plans on making it without a decent one. One of the major reasons for making this game was to have a shmup with an engaging storyline, told around great gameplay. If people really don't care about that, then they can play the mode that skips the story. I know that's a good chunk of people.

I've never been a big fan of bombs, but lets see...

I think at first I just want the basic ship controls down. Side missions could be good, but I wouldn't want performance to dictate how much people got to see. I'm not rejecting it outright, but it's not something I'm planning on right now. I'll keep all of this in mind going forward.

[Kaleb Parham]

Ok I was just throwing some ideas at you

[hybridmink]

I'm going to post my work on this game as I go in this thread. I might only get to work on things once in a while, but I hope to produce sketches in my free time at the very least. Feel free to leave feedback if you'd like. I generally draw human characters so this should be a nice challenge.

The first image is the main ship, ALT RAMMBOCK in it's extended ram view as well as neutral. The second is a sketch of what may be the first level boss. Design aesthetics between the AR and the empire's ships will overlap as the AR was originally developed there. I think this is most noticeable around the cockpit.

[Kaleb Parham]

It looks very nice man. The boss looks interesting, but a quick question, will every boss have a Gradius wall that has to be rammed, or will different bosses have different means of taking them out?

[Kaleb Parham]

I also looked into the vector graphics thing. It can be done, but it honestly is not the best way to make graphics for a game. I can find people who will make sprites rather cheaply though.

[Rozyrg]

Yeah, I would do pixel over vector, too just for ease of production. I've gotten very good results in the past using Illustrator; but animating any of that stuff can be a problem. Whereas going per-pixel you can easily just fudge stuff by moving bits around a little at a time and then making minor tweaks afterwards, doing any comparable adjustments with a vector image is far more fiddly and time-consuming.

For general fx-type stuff it works fine, though. It's just that the more detailed the image, the more minute alterations will be necessary, if not requiring you to start from scratch completely.

[hybridmink]

I agree with you guys, pixels definitely look better in motion. I mean, if the game ran at 1080p, illustrations might look really nice. Chances are, it will only be 720 though.

As for bosses, I want there to be different ways of approaching each boss. In an ideal world, there would be 2 or 3 ways to take bosses down, but chances are there won't be that much variety. I actually went with a gradius approach for the first boss because everyone recognizes the multi-wall/attack the core approach. This gets people thinking about the importance of the ram. Another idea for a boss would be to destroy the connectors between the wings so that it couldn't fire as many bullets. Pretty typical stuff so far, but I'd like to get more elaborate for later bosses.

Next up will most likely be the second boss and some smaller recurring enemies, most likely mechs.

[hybridmink]

Something more sleek and alien.

[Cagar]

xDDD
Dick ship!!!

[hybridmink]

I was afraid someone might say that...

well it should look a bit different in sprite form

[Kaleb Parham]

Hmm, that boss will be interesting to design as far as the pulsating push attack goes.

[hybridmink]

Here's some relatively quick concept art of Luci defending the home planet. The planet is mostly covered in ice so her people are much more physically resilient and stronger than your average human. This is how Luci can handle such a huge gun. Originally I wanted them to have polar bear-like features, but I just don't think people take any % of furry seriously. I'd have to go full starfox for it to work but...

Anyways, it's pretty rough, but it got the idea across so I'm moving on. I would title this "The Last Line of Defense."