Best scalers for alternating 480i/240p sources?

[Sixfortyfive]

I'm looking for a scaler that can handle games that switch between 480i and 240p on the fly during gameplay. Specifically:

- It must handle the transition quickly. (e.g. no long HDMI handshake like the Framemeister has)
- 480p output is required. 720p/1080p is a bonus but not needed.
- VGA output is required; DVI-A>VGA is sufficient if that's all I can get. HDMI is a bonus but not needed.
- Low latency is the top priority. Picture quality is secondary. Scanlines and PAL sources are irrelevant.
- This would primarily be used on 1080p LCD monitors in addition to VGA CRT monitors on occasion. HDTVs are not a huge concern.

What is there to pick from? From what I've gleaned, either an XRGB2 or XRGB3 would do the job but I'm wondering if there's something better tailored or more cost-effective for this particular task.

[Fudoh]

There's nothing better than those, but if you have a little more time, you could wait for Crafty-Mech's linedoubler to see the light of day. Or you can use a home theater processor, e.g. a DVDO. Really depends on what kind of 480i content you want to play and if you're priority is 240p or 480i. The deinterlacing approach for 480i is very different between a XRGB and a home theater processor.

[Sixfortyfive]

I've got my eye on Crafty's project, but I didn't think 480i was a priority for him at the moment.

Most of the retro games I'd use a scaler for are 240p, but I do have some that switch into 480i for a lot more than just menus, so I feel like both formats are a priority. Specifically, Saturn Bomberman uses 480i for 10-player mode (240p for everything else including menus) and I want to run a tournament for that game on LCD monitors in the near future.

[StarCreator]

It's only been mentioned five times so far in this forum, but such a scaler would also be incredibly useful for running DDR and other Bemani music games from before the PS2 and PC-driven era on non-trisync monitors or monitors that don't handle 240p well at all.

[cfx]

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[ZellSF]

If the title screen and options screen are in 480i... is it really a problem if video drops out a few seconds?

I can understand a ingame menu you access frequently or something, but something you only access once at game start drops out a few seconds... if you're that picky about everything you're never going to find a solution that's good enough for you.

[Xyga]

Agreed. There's nothing around faster than the old XRGBs.
A 21" crt television in good shape shouldn't be too hard to find - much easier and much less expensive than repeatedly buying XRGBs at least.

[BuckoA51]

I don't think there's any processor that works perfectly in this scenario though, certainly in my setup even using the XRGB3 in B1 there is screen blanking when games change from 240p to 480i.

[broken harbour]

If the title screen and options screen are in 480i... is it really a problem if video drops out a few seconds?

I can understand a ingame menu you access frequently or something, but something you only access once at game start drops out a few seconds... if you're that picky about everything you're never going to find a solution that's good enough for you.

It's irritating in games like Virtua Fighter 2, by the time my setup finishes it's HDMI handshake I have about 3 seconds to choose my character. This resolution change seems to affect mostly Saturn games. There's a few PS1 titles that suffer from it too.

[Ji-L87]

I don't think there's any processor that works perfectly in this scenario though, certainly in my setup even using the XRGB3 in B1 there is screen blanking when games change from 240p to 480i.

In my case, using the Vigatec Dune-F, the screen makes a jump as it makes the switch. Not very subtle, but better than loosing the signal entirely

[cfx]

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[SGGG2]

It's irritating in games like Virtua Fighter 2, by the time my setup finishes it's HDMI handshake I have about 3 seconds to choose my character. This resolution change seems to affect mostly Saturn games.

I like to mess around with different versions of games as much as the next guy but why would anyone play the Saturn port of VF2 over the PS3 or 360 versions? Other than nostalgia of course. They're arcade perfect.

[Sixfortyfive]

Agreed. There's nothing around faster than the old XRGBs.
A 21" crt television in good shape shouldn't be too hard to find - much easier and much less expensive than repeatedly buying XRGBs at least.

I'm looking for an upscaler specifically because the venues in which I want to run these games only use LCD monitors.

As far as I'm concerned, 10-player Bomberman is the best reason to have a Saturn plugged in at all, and it changes display modes at the start of every match. I'm leaning toward an emulation substitute for the time being instead, since the JP/PAL versions seem to run on SSF well enough.

[cfx]

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[Xyga]

The pre-Vigatec scaler Comm-Tec UP 1280 has a time compensation switch that's basically a 1 frame buffer.
When it is on the machine can handle a real hell of input signals and frequencies, and output a completely stable picture.
I have very little free time at the moment but I'll give a try to Saturn Bomberman or any other 'problem' games on it and let you know how it fares compared to the XRGBs.

To me this scaler is something in-between the XRGB-2 and 2+ (2 when time compensation is on, 2+ when it's off) except it doesn't cut lines, accepts PAL 50Hz, works best in 852x480 output mode and overall picture lacks a bit in clarity compared to the XRGBs.
The Comm-Tec UP 1280 is quite rare though, it only pops up on eBay Germany once every few months.

Still, this whole thing about transitions bugs me because I have never experienced this screen blanking people talk about.
Makes me want to put all of my scaling my hadware to test.
I wonder if the display's inputs sensitivity plays a role in this matter.

[SuperDeadite]

It's irritating in games like Virtua Fighter 2, by the time my setup finishes it's HDMI handshake I have about 3 seconds to choose my character. This resolution change seems to affect mostly Saturn games.

I like to mess around with different versions of games as much as the next guy but why would anyone play the Saturn port of VF2 over the PS3 or 360 versions? Other than nostalgia of course. They're arcade perfect.

Because it's not the only game with this problem and not all of them have versions on current consoles?

To clarify something I said originally, the issues I had with the XRGB-2 and 2plus wasn't mode switching. The XRGB-2 has issues with some arcade boards where it cuts off the bottom (or right side for vertical games). It does this on Battle Bakraid and Batrider where it cuts off enough that the right part the 2p score are missing; at least the ones I had did. It was not a monitor issue as far as I could determine, because the 2plus didn't have that problem, but I couldn't stand the shaky vertical line problem due to its sync issues. I can't keep up with everything everyone has done...is there a way to fix that issue with a second processor after the XRGB?

The Micomsoft DISPL (not DISPL-TV) is exactly what you're looking for, good luck getting one though...

[SGGG2]

Because it's not the only game with this problem and not all of them have versions on current consoles?

I understand the need for on the fly switching for problematic titles but that wasn't my question. Anyhow, it seems you'd rather not share.

[cfx]

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[ZellSF]

I think this issue affects far more games than many seem to think it does.

Late reply, but I don't get this. Very few people have problems with 240p/480i switching titles, why would you think it's a problem in many games? To me it seems to be a rare issue that people are blowing out of proportion without even mentioning any problem titles because they barely know of any. If there's so many, where are they? What has been mentioned in this thread:

• Kaze Pinball titles: "suspected" mode switches. No one knows if they actually do mode switches.
• Radiant Silvergun: only titlescreen switch.
• Saturn Bomberman: switch between menus and gameplay, gameplay being 480i (I would've just used a device that treats all of it as 480i).
• Virtua Fighter 2: Menus, gives you little time for character selection. Better ports available on other platforms.

I'm just not seeing the problem.

[BuckoA51]

Saturn Bomberman is only 480i if you choose the super big mega arena, or whatever it's called.

[Ji-L87]

To me it seems to be a rare issue that people are blowing out of proportion without even mentioning any problem titles because they barely know of any. If there's so many, where are they?

From the top of my head, I'd like to mention these PS1 titles: Ace Combat 3, Densha de Go! 2 and RayStorm.
I'm just not sure which parts are 240p and which ones are 480i ....

[cfx]

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[ZellSF]

Having my concerns dismissed outright repeatedly adds nothing to the conversation.

I disagree. People might be interested in how huge problem this actually is, I sure am. I think asking the people who say it is a huge people to actually specify some games is pretty crucial to figuring that out.

Would the conversation really be worthwhile if we figured out a solution... and it turned out it was only needed for 5 games?

[SuperDeadite]

I think this issue affects far more games than many seem to think it does.

Late reply, but I don't get this. Very few people have problems with 240p/480i switching titles, why would you think it's a problem in many games? To me it seems to be a rare issue that people are blowing out of proportion without even mentioning any problem titles because they barely know of any. If there's so many, where are they? What has been mentioned in this thread:

• Kaze Pinball titles: "suspected" mode switches. No one knows if they actually do mode switches.
• Radiant Silvergun: only titlescreen switch.
• Saturn Bomberman: switch between menus and gameplay, gameplay being 480i (I would've just used a device that treats all of it as 480i).
• Virtua Fighter 2: Menus, gives you little time for character selection. Better ports available on other platforms.

I'm just not seeing the problem.

I think it's potentially a problem in more games than expected because the number of people using scalers is relatively small, and there are many obscure Saturn titles that I happen to care about that most probably don't and hence many of them may have never been tested.

I'd check the KaZe games myself if I could, but since I currently have nothing I can even hook the Saturn up to where I can check I can't verify it. I know that they display FMV when certain table events are triggered, and I don't think any Saturn FMV is ever displayed at 480i while the tables in these games certainly are.

As far as RS and other titles that have it only in the title screen, you see it as no big deal and I see it as a big deal. For what XRGBs cost and the cost of the cables, and just the hassle of setting all this up in general with occasional console and cable mods, etc., I expect things to work right. At $300 and up for new XRGBs, I expect them to work properly with the specific games I care most about, otherwise it's a pointless and expensive purchase for me.

Having my concerns dismissed outright repeatedly adds nothing to the conversation. I'll just "agree to disagree" and bow out now since other than the suggestion of the DISPL that I'll never find no one has any useful suggestion for me.

The DISPL is the best all-in-one unit. However an excellent alternative would be the XRGB-1 with a scanline generator attached, it should also satisfy what you're looking for, and be much cheaper, just not as simple and clean as the DISPL.

[cfx]

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[ZellSF]

Would the conversation really be worthwhile if we figured out a solution... and it turned out it was only needed for 5 games?

Since I asked the question, and I believe there are at least five games with the issue that I care about, then YES? Maybe someone else out there cares about some of the same ones too?

Then isn't it important to find out what those five games are rather than going "it probably affects a lot of game no one's noticed yet"? What if we figure out a solution, someone buys expensive hardware to solve a issue they're never going to run into?

[Fudoh]

A list would probably be a good idea. I think the Saturn is one of the less affected systems. There are likely more games on the PS1 and the N64 that switch between 240p and 480i constantly. KI64 for example is unplayable on the Mini.

[StarCreator]

We already went through this drama in the BitBlitzen thread (or whatever it's called now). The following three SNES games were cited in that thread as having switching video mode behavior:

Chrono Trigger: uses 480i for a particular special effect when Lavos erupts from the ground
Seiken Densetsu 2 (Secret of Mana): 480i menus, 240p gameplay
Seiken Densetsu 3: 480i menus, 240p/480i gameplay (rapidly switches to display messages)

I maintain that it might not be a majority of games affected, but there are probably a lot of cases where people simply don't know this is happening. Not everyone knows what to look for or would even recognize something is wrong if playing on a non-CRT which doesn't handle it properly.

[akumajo]

I noticed the problem on xrgb3 and Chrono Trigger (was not able to reproduce it with Seiken 2 and 3)
the problem does not happen on Xcapture-1, signal is always detected as 240p, what could be the magic behind this ?

edit :
Super Famicom + Chrono Trigger + RGB Cable + XRGB-3 + Game In Input = Lavos problem (black screen for 2~3 seconds)
Super Famicom + Chrono Trigger + RGB Cable + XRGB-3 + Sync Strike + D in 2 Input set to RGBC = no Lavos problem

[broken harbour]

KI64 for example is unplayable on the Mini.

Whoops, I guess that means the game I just bought was a bad idea.... FML...