NESRGB board available now

[markfrizb]

Tim,
Did you see my post about altering the top loader adapter change?

[markfrizb]

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/4870/5ve8.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img22/8910/7nt5.jpg

Tim,
I want to suggest a slight change in the top loader adapter pcb.
The adapter sits just over the CPU. If the
CPU dies, it'll be a BEAR to remove and replace. And the header pins sit almost on top of the CPU pins in that someone could unknowingly bridge those pins to the CPU pins. Why not move the headers so the CPU isn't covered? And maybe a notch so the transistor wouldn't have to be stressed and bent?

Just my observations. I don't know if the adapter pcb is precisely laid out this way for a different reason.

This is the post...

[undamned]

Same here with Duck Maze.

Ah, man. Duck Maze is my favourite game of all time. I guess I won't be buying one of these kits afterall.
-ud

[Ed Oscuro]

"hammered shit" is the phrase of the month

Also, is it Duck Maze or DueK? The word has been formed out of little stringy duck poops and I can't tell.

[game-tech.us]

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/4870/5ve8.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img22/8910/7nt5.jpg

Tim,
I want to suggest a slight change in the top loader adapter pcb.
The adapter sits just over the CPU. If the
CPU dies, it'll be a BEAR to remove and replace. And the header pins sit almost on top of the CPU pins in that someone could unknowingly bridge those pins to the CPU pins. Why not move the headers so the CPU isn't covered? And maybe a notch so the transistor wouldn't have to be stressed and bent?

Just my observations. I don't know if the adapter pcb is precisely laid out this way for a different reason.

This is the post...

Honestly it doesn't sound like you are installing it with a socket in the motherboard, which makes it a snap to remove the rgb kit and have access to the top of the cpu. That also lifts it off the cpu to the point that headers won't touch anything, especially if cut.

[markfrizb]

No, I'm not using sockets for the adapter pcb. Just the pin headers soldered in. While I realize that pin sockets would solve this issue, and I am experienced in solder/desoldering (like yourself), other people aren't and probably should use pin sockets. But for the same reason you used a drakon-esque glue post to steady the NESRGB pcb so jolts and drops won't separate the pin socket connectors by accident, is the same reason I prefer to not use pin sockets. Sockets will always be a weak point in any pcb. And with the top loaders, 2 sets of sockets? One for the mother board to adapter board and then a second for the adapter to the NESRGB. Although I don't advertise a modding service, I do mods for a select few. I also make some adapter pcb's for Snes FX carts and other various pcb projects. My suggestion to Tim is a reasonable one since it wouldn't detract from the adapters function and would allow the use of soldered pin headers (as well as continued socket use) and have access to the CPU should the need arise. Since Tim already has the design on his computer, altering would be pretty simple whereas, if I make my own, it's pretty costly but still doable. I'm also in the process of making a NES to Jamma+Vs./pc10 adapter pcb with gun support, in game reset, etc .... clean- just the 2 controller ports and 1 VGA cable does it all. Anyways, Tim, if you are reading this, it would be good if you alter the top loader pcb. From what I can tell, there's no down side design wise.

[Skips]

If high quality sockets are used there are no problems with the kit coming loose. I use the sockets sold on mouser.com and they put a death lock on whatever you put into them. I can pick up the whole front loader NES PCB by the RGB kit and shake it (with a cartridge in it), it does not budge an inch. I can even slam the crap out of the NES while it is running and the kit wont budge in the slightest and its upside down in the front loader.

Packing consoles in a thick sheet of bubble wrap and filling the box with it will prevent the system from being rattled enough to knock things loose. High quality sockets and proper packaging will save you from things coming loose in transit. Does it cost more? Yes but it gets the job done correctly and leaves everything easy to remove for when someone other than you has to fix things. When I ship consoles I wrap them several times in bubble wrap then evenly fill the bottom of the box with bubbled wrap. I then place the bubble wrapped console in the box then evenly lay and stuff more bubble wrap on top. The game console has zero room to move and can not be rattled. If packaged like this the delivery man can throw the damn package from the street to your door and nothing will come loose.

[leonk]

Jason and all, from all the years modding systems, how many have come back where you opened them up and said "I'm glad I socketed that"?

Socketing ic's might seem like a great idea but my personal feeling is once inserted, you will never remove it (unless you're doing a different mod). It might create more problems than it tries to solve.

I think a new design for the top loader adapter is a great idea. I ran into the same issue.

[Jockel]

I didn't read every single page of this thread, so sorry if this has been asked before.
But is there any ETA on the next batch? I really, really want one.

[undamned]

I use the sockets sold on mouser.com and they put a death lock on whatever you put into them. I can pick up the whole front loader NES by the RGB kit and shake it (with a cartridge in it), it does not budge an inch. I can even slam the crap out of the NES while it is running and the kit wont budge in the slightest and its upside down in the front loader.

...and leaves everything easy to remove

Only one of these statements can be true.
-ud

[game-tech.us]

And with the top loaders, 2 sets of sockets? One for the mother board to adapter board and then a second for the adapter to the NESRGB.

No the adapter pcb is soldered directly to the rgb board.

[game-tech.us]

Jason and all, from all the years modding systems, how many have come back where you opened them up and said "I'm glad I socketed that"?

Socketing ic's might seem like a great idea but my personal feeling is once inserted, you will never remove it (unless you're doing a different mod). It might create more problems than it tries to solve.

I think a new design for the top loader adapter is a great idea. I ran into the same issue.

Yeah i've been glad sockets were installed a few times, not to do another mod, but because the chip or mod failed and made it super easy to swap out. However, it is rare and now that I have a hako 808 it's so easy to remove thru hole stuff that sockets can be used even less.
Even though the pins/sockets in teh rgb kit seem to hold really well I'm still going to solder the rgb board direct to the front loader nes board as long as the customer is ok with it. It just seems rational since it will be hanging from the bottom of the nes mobo.
Oh and Tim will most likely not redesign the adapter board. I asked for one for the us top loader just so it would be centered and moved back from the cart throat, mostly a cosmetic issue really, but he refused.

[mufunyo]

I use the sockets sold on mouser.com and they put a death lock on whatever you put into them.

...and leaves everything easy to remove

Only one of these statements can be true.
-ud

Yes, because if a chip or board doesn't fall out of its socket by itself then clearly it's more difficult to pull it out than desoldering would have been.

[markfrizb]

The bottom line (to me) is that there is no down-side (other than cost) to a redesign.
Tim is all about doing something the right way and a redesign is about a better function, not cosmetics.
If I were (re)making the adapter, I would of course move the mount holes away from the CPU, but I would also put a hole in the pcb for clearance for the cap that sits under it and notch on the end for the transistor (shown in my original post pics). With a redesigned adapter pcb, there would be no need for pin sockets.
If it was just about cosmetics, then I'm with Tim. But this isn't about cosmetics.

[game-tech.us]

If I were (re)making the adapter, I would of course move the mount holes away from the CPU, but I would also put a hole in the pcb for clearance for the cap that sits under it and notch on the end for the transistor (shown in my original post pics). With a redesigned adapter pcb, there would be no need for pin sockets.

Q1 is part of the composite circuit so unless you plan to 'shut off' the nesrgb with the palette switch then you can just remove it. Same thing with C3, if that's the cap you're having clearance issues with, it's part of the mono audio out, so if you plan to use the amp on the nesrgb board then this too can be removed.
However I think both of those issues and the pins touching the cpu pins could be solved by putting the sockets on the nes mobo and not in between the nesrgb pcb and the adapter, i'm still unclear why you hard soldered the adapter to the nes mobo...
OR use taller headers. The round pin headers I bought off ebay from china are a bit taller than the ones supplied in the kit and I test fit the nesrgb board in a front loader using just the headers and it cleared everything nicely as long as the electro's were bent down.
Having said all that there's no reason the adapter board can't be redone. I had even started on it, but quit once I did a complete instal and found that it cleared everything just fine.

[markfrizb]

I get it... You see the adapter as good enough IF you use this or that... And IF you remove this or that.... I'm am all about the fewer steps the better. A better design would mean fewer steps which equals less time at the bench. Again, there is NO down-side to a redesign and all positives. But if the vast majority of people see that it's good enough then I doubt Tim will change a thing.
Game-tech hasn't argued that a design change isn't bad, but that it's not necessary... If you use or that part

[Skips]

I use the sockets sold on mouser.com and they put a death lock on whatever you put into them. I can pick up the whole front loader NES by the RGB kit and shake it (with a cartridge in it), it does not budge an inch. I can even slam the crap out of the NES while it is running and the kit wont budge in the slightest and its upside down in the front loader.

...and leaves everything easy to remove

Only one of these statements can be true.
-ud

Its not hard to remove it if you gently pry it up with a screwdriver. The sockets have plastic supports on them so you are not prying against the NES PCB when you need to remove it. You simply just cant pull it out barehanded or shake it out. It is still plenty easy to remove if need be and with 0 desoldering.

[game-tech.us]

I get it... You see the adapter as good enough IF you use this or that... And IF you remove this or that.... I'm am all about the fewer steps the better. A better design would mean fewer steps which equals less time at the bench. Again, there is NO down-side to a redesign and all positives.
Game-tech hasn't argued that a design change isn't bad, but that it's not necessary... If you use or that part

I said OR do this, not AND do this, as in:
1. Remove the 2 parts OR;
2. Use the socket on the nes mobo OR;
3. Taller header pins between adapter and nes mobo.
That will give you the height to clear those component and you wouldn't need to remove them and you wouldn't be touching pins on the cpu.
This still doesn't answer the question of why you want to solder the adapter board permanent, yet socket the nesrgb pcb.
So swapping them means the same amount of steps just different parts in different places.
Also, if the cpu fails, you need to be able to desolder it and if you can desolder the cpu then you should be able to desolder the ppu and or what ever is in it's place, right?
The last line has a double negative and is confusing, but yes, with a socket on the nes mobo the adapter board works just fine, as seen in my YT vid.

[markfrizb]

We've both made our point. Enough said IMO.

Thanks for the input.

Mark

[game-tech.us]

We've both made our point. Enough said IMO.

Thanks for the input.

Mark

AGREED!

[ApolloBoy]

I didn't read every single page of this thread, so sorry if this has been asked before.
But is there any ETA on the next batch? I really, really want one.

Tim said sometime in mid-December or so. I can't afford one now, but I hope to get one for Xmas from my folks. If money permits I'll most likely get a second one for my front loader in January.

I use the sockets sold on mouser.com and they put a death lock on whatever you put into them. I can pick up the whole front loader NES by the RGB kit and shake it (with a cartridge in it), it does not budge an inch. I can even slam the crap out of the NES while it is running and the kit wont budge in the slightest and its upside down in the front loader.

...and leaves everything easy to remove

Only one of these statements can be true.
-ud

What he means is that everything is easy to remove if you're intentionally looking to remove components. Otherwise they can't be accidentally removed through jolts or other shipping mishaps.

[mvsfan]

I want to do this but Your diagram shows expansion pin 46 as the expansion audio pin.

Which one is it 40 or 46?

Pin 46 is for the Famicom.

so pin 46 has to be tied through a 1.2k resistor into the output of the nesrgb audio. is that correct? is that the only thing i need to do?

[viletim]

To be honest, from Moosmann's photos, it looks like the palette is being changed alternately between scanlines, causing some sort of dithering effect. If it's off-by-one, it would start flickering similar to composite video crosstalk. The photos don't really look like composite at all (the picture is way too sharp), and I can't really see a logical explanation for it.

A quick check with a debugging emulator shows the palette in Duck Maze is only written to when the whole screen changes. Maybe you are on to something though... The NESRGB will simply ignore palette writes during rendering. I'm not completely sure if the ordinary PPU behaviour is the same. I'll have to spend some more time with the debugger to find out...

markfrizb,

Ok, I'll change the adapters. Can you (or anyone) confirm that if the new adapter moved the NESRGB board 10mm closer to the front of the console that it will still fit into the NES 2 and AV Famicom ?

[markfrizb]

markfrizb,

Ok, I'll change the adapters. Can you (or anyone) confirm that if the new adapter moved the NESRGB board 10mm closer to the front of the console that it will still fit into the NES 2 and AV Famicom ?

I don't have the NES 2 console...

But the Famicom A/V looks like there is plenty of room to move towards the front. I don't think it needs to move 10mm though..... Maybe 4mm. I'll dig out my calipers later today

[ccovell]

I might have missed it... does anybody have a circuit idea for a Famicom Stereo mod, with FC expansion audio mixed at 50% to each channel?

[markfrizb]

markfrizb,

Ok, I'll change the adapters. Can you (or anyone) confirm that if the new adapter moved the NESRGB board 10mm closer to the front of the console that it will still fit into the NES 2 and AV Famicom ?

I don't have the NES 2 console...

But the Famicom A/V looks like there is plenty of room to move towards the front. I don't think it needs to move 10mm though..... Maybe 4mm. I'll dig out my calipers later today

Tim, I was thinking this might be an Ideal layout.

[markfrizb]

markfrizb,

Ok, I'll change the adapters. Can you (or anyone) confirm that if the new adapter moved the NESRGB board 10mm closer to the front of the console that it will still fit into the NES 2 and AV Famicom ?

I don't have the NES 2 console...

But the Famicom A/V looks like there is plenty of room to move towards the front. I don't think it needs to move 10mm though..... Maybe 4mm. I'll dig out my calipers later today

Moving the NESRGB toward the front of the console 10mm is too much. I think there will be clearance issues with the reset button housing for the Famicom AV. If you move it, I suggest 2MM which would keep it close to the same position or MAYBE 8mm might work putting it on the other side of the header pins. Just a slight move so the CPU can clear is all that is needed.

[markfrizb]

"Frog family computer". http://imageshack.com/i/5mg3tlj

Can I safely assume that since this doesn't have a PPU, that the NESRGB will not work on this?

[game-tech.us]

"Frog family computer". http://imageshack.com/i/5mg3tlj

Can I safely assume that since this doesn't have a PPU, that the NESRGB will not work on this?

The UMC chips are clones of the cpu and ppu, ua653? I have a brazillian clone with ua6547 and ua6548, not sure what #s are what though.

[ApolloBoy]

"Frog family computer". http://imageshack.com/i/5mg3tlj

Can I safely assume that since this doesn't have a PPU, that the NESRGB will not work on this?

It does have a PPU, albeit a cloned one. It might work out, it certainly wouldn't hurt to try. You can swap the clone CPU and PPU out with actual Nintendo/Ricoh chips no problem so I assume the NESRGB would be fine.

I also received my AV Fami adapter board today so I'm getting real anxious to have one of these babies in my hands come Xmas.