I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

[ACSeraph]

Honestly, G5 is like everything good about RSG, minus everything wrong with it (EXCEPT the length, which is subjective for some folks).

Totally agree, Gradius 5 is godly.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I want to see more Weapon Edit style mechanics in games. Like, selectable Shot, Laser, Bomb loadouts etc. Definitely fun experimenting with the more unusual stuff like the flamethrower.

[Oniros]

I want to see more Weapon Edit style mechanics in games. Like, selectable Shot, Laser, Bomb loadouts etc. Definitely fun experimenting with the more unusual stuff like the flamethrower.

Play Mii Force on the 3DS. No, seriously.

[Bananamatic]

I want to see Einhander without checkpoints

[ZacharyB]

I want to see Einhander without checkpoints

Try Super R-Type.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Fun Weapons™ are abundant in: Guardian Force, Sonic Wings Special, most Compile shmups, Mahou Daisakusen. Of which only Sonic Wings Special doesn't allow for cycling through all of them in the midst of a run, but its Caravan-like mode is where all unlocked fighters can be sampled briefly.
Then there's Shikigami no Shiro II, but it feels a bit too "modern" for my liking.

Gradius V might have been actually played at all by more people than Ikaruga simply because it was on the PS2 (PAL version wasn't as botched up as Ikaruga PAL either).

[Zaarock]

Honestly, G5 is like everything good about RSG, minus everything wrong with it (EXCEPT the length, which is subjective for some folks).

What's bad about the RSG weapon system? I think it's one of the best examples of giving the player ship a lot of tools to deal with things while each weapon has a specific purpose(they don't overlap). The learning curve and variety the system provides makes the puzzle parts a bit more bearable. G5's systems obviously arent remotely similar.

I've always wondered why there aren't even more multi-weapon shmups like RSG, thunderforce, caladrius, hellsinker etc. Since they allow a lot of depth in gameplay that is tied to survival where learning to use your character is the defining part of the difficulty curve, like in say a fighting game.

[Squire Grooktook]

Honestly, G5 is like everything good about RSG, minus everything wrong with it (EXCEPT the length, which is subjective for some folks).

What's bad about the RSG weapon system? I think it's one of the best examples of giving the player ship a lot of tools to deal with things while each weapon has a specific purpose(they don't overlap). The learning curve and variety the system provides makes the puzzle parts a bit more bearable. G5's systems obviously arent remotely similar.

The weapon system was fine, I agree I actually like that too. I was more thinking of it this way

Gradius 5 has the pixel sized hitbox of RSG, the clever bosses that don't need rely on danmaku to be challenging with aforementioned pixel sized hitbox, the weapon systems that require great amounts of input and manuevering, and the intricate environmental hazards. It's a bit less static and predictable in a lot of places, but it has the general "treasure-ish" feel to everything.

It doesn't have the love it or hate it scoring system that forces you to ignore 1/3rd of all enemies and upgrade your weapons by milking bosses, nor does it punish you for not making use of said system by drawing out late game bosses to absurd lengths. It also lets you change your ships speed, and the pacing is a bit faster overall imo.

So maybe not mechanically or system wise, but I feel that in terms of level and boss design Gradius 5 has the same kind of dodging and shooting style as RSG, while not having certain things that are very love it or hate it to most people. Believe me, I'm not trying to dump on RSG like everyone else. I actually do think it's a great game. However I do think GV is also a fantastic game with level and boss design that feels very similar to RSG (in a very good way) while being a lot more straight forward and accessible overall imo.


Also yeah, I agree. I wish there were more bullet hell shooters with a focus on learning your weapons. Eschatos also comes to mind with the way you slowly get used to how your shield should be used offensively and defensively over the course of the game.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Aren't all Gradius V bosses of shoot-the-core kind? I don't recall RSG bosses being a lot like that.

[drauch]

I'm very much aware that those who play Touhou play other games. It would be idiotic of me to think otherwise. They are shmups, and I view them in the same category with other shmups. You were taking my words too literally, which is what I was trying to explain before this got too wacky. Which it did.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it and just carry on. I'm happy to read about Touhou stuff as long as it stays about the games.

Let's just quit. To explain as bluntly as I can, I don't hate Touhou fans or the games. Admitted stereotyping on my part, and I'll just apologize for that and we'll call it over. You're fine in my book.

I've been here since '08 and just this month was the first time (to my knowledge) that I've really picked on Touhou fans, so I'm obviously not this devilish elitist with a knack to put fire to the proposed Touhou menace. A few people got under my skin and I reacted, with my second mention in this discussion not with the intent of upset, yet it still seemed quite that way, with some poor implications on my part.

Let's get back to this, uh... rather important discussion!

[Acid King]

I was a dedicated fan of the genre for years, but it wasn't until I bought Ikaruga for the Gamecube that I got in to playing for score and 1cc, which caused me to reevaluate all the games I owned and really made me appreciate the games. That added layer, figuring out how to exploit the score system and not using continues, was what drew me in long term. I think as far as that aspect of shooters go, Ikaruga does a good job of making the scoring system transparent and obvious to new players, so I think it's a good game to get beginners to appreciate playing for score.

That said, I wonder how many of the mainstream gamers who lavish praise on it really get in to the nuts and bolts of playing the game and aren't just recognizing RSG and Ikaruga as well designed games they don't put that much time in. I know that none of the people I know who have downloaded the game on Live ever put all that much time in to it. I think for a lot of people Ikaruga is, yes, a casual game like most "retro" style games are nowadays. They both also have extremely positive reputations among mainstream press and I think a large part of that is Treasure's beloved status as a developer. That developer connection adds a big chunk of legitimacy to their status as classics. I wonder how they would be remembered and received if they had been developed by Raizing or Cave. In other words, while I think the games have made people see shooters differently, I think it's possible Treasure's name has done more for the genre than the games themselves.

[Squire Grooktook]

Aren't all Gradius V bosses of shoot-the-core kind? I don't recall RSG bosses being a lot like that.

There are a few bosses that aren't. Close enough anyway.

[jpj]

hiroshi iuchi has only made 3 games in his career as far as i'm aware: silvergun, ikaruga, and gradius 5. considering his day job at treasure was a background graphics pixel-artist, to make 3 shmups back to back as good as those 3 games.. i personally think he is a genius

[KAI]

Kokuga?

[ShmupSamurai]

Am I the only person here who enjoys the both the shmup aspects AND the story/RPG aspects of RSG equally?

[Squire Grooktook]

Usually I'm not into depressing stories or time travel stories, but RSG plot is pretty cool.

[GaijinPunch]

let's be honest, touhou introduced a lot more people to shmups than ikaruga - and a lot of those are some of the best players in the west atm

Ikaruga actually had some type of market penetration in the west. RS...almost did. Touhou isn't exactly a household name.

[Squire Grooktook]

Shmups aren't household names period.

Touhou is still just as popular as Ikaruga with the one demographic that truly matters to this genre: Internet nerds.

Ikaruga is more of a breakthrough for Game Cube owners (aka Nintendo fans) imho

[GaijinPunch]

Touhou is still just as popular as Ikaruga with the one demographic that truly matters to this genre: Internet nerds.

Not exactly a fair argument. Japanese pop culture has only done nothing but gain recognition in the west since... well, since the 70's sort of, but it's been more of a snowball effect. Ikaruga came out in 2001 and had a decent following. The fan base to lay up a game back then had nearly as much padding as it had in the subsequent years. Shit, I got cousins in the midwest that know more about Japanese pop culture than me.

But anyway, yeah. Internet nerds. Definitely not the best benchmark for the awesomeness of something.

[Squire Grooktook]

Do not scoff at the internet nerd, they are the niche gamer audience, and the niche gamer audience is and always will be 99% of the shmup fanbase.

Anyway, like I said at the beginning of the thread, this is all anecdote based unless someone pulls together some kind of actual statistical data. My only anecdote is that ALL of my friends know what touhou is (despite most of them not playing shmups) and only a few of them know what Ikaruga is, and that I have seen Touhou, the fanbase, and Touhou related fanworks permeate nearly every corner of the internet, and are nearly inescapable on Youtube, DeviantArt, Forums, any kind of image board, anything anime related, and anything indie gaming related, etc. (I even once laughed my ass off when I saw an online heavy metal encyclopedia had to put up a clause on its "what kind of bands to send us" warning saying "please stop sending us Touhou arrange albums, we do not count them as metal"...seriously there's like 30 billion of them. Touhou is its own damn indie music genre practically.)

I mean heck, if you even watched Youtube Poop for a month a few years back, chances are you ran into a few Flowering Night or U.N Owen remixes done with Hotel Mario characters or some shit.

But like I said, this is all just personal experience without any kind of hard data. Either way, Ikaruga and Touhou have both done a lot for getting the genre some exposure.

[replayme]

This thread just makes me yearn for another Iuchi developed shmup. He's done Gradius, so maybe someone at Konami or Square can ask him to make a sequel to Axelay or Einhander. On Vita. That would be a dream come true.

[alpachinko]

This thread just makes me yearn for another Iuchi developed shmup. He's done Gradius, so maybe someone at Konami or Square can ask him to make a sequel to Axelay or Einhander. On Vita. That would be a dream come true.

Vita needs more shmups for sure.

[replayme]

This thread just makes me yearn for another Iuchi developed shmup. He's done Gradius, so maybe someone at Konami or Square can ask him to make a sequel to Axelay or Einhander. On Vita. That would be a dream come true.

Vita needs more shmups for sure.

Hopefully that Gradius V PSN release makes its way to Vita.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Does Vita effectively has all PSX shmups, or has it to be hacked yet?

[replayme]

Does Vita effectively has all PSX shmups, or has it to be hacked yet?

You can get PS1 games via PSN. There is a bit of trickery involved regarding memory cards and certain regions. It's why I'll just opt for sticking with my PSP when it comes to buying Einhander (JPN) and Final Fantasy VII (US) - which will happen sooner or later.

As for PS2 games - I don't think the games are Vita compatible.

[alpachinko]

As for PS2 games - I don't think the games are Vita compatible.

Yeah the PS2 games have to be ported over which they then charge you full price for the privilege to play them.

[Obiwanshinobi]

If - I say "if" - Vita's d-pad is better than PSP's, that's why it needs every PSX game to be playable on it. I didn't expect PS2 games to work on Vita without porting,

[Thjodbjorn]

I hadn't heard of Touhou before coming here. And I had of course heard of Ikaruga. I wasn't living under a rock.

[ACSeraph]

I hadn't heard of Touhou before coming here. And I had of course heard of Ikaruga. I wasn't living under a rock.

As I mentioned earlier, it's the same for me. We should just make a poll or something: "Which did you hear about first, Ikaruga or Touhou?"

[Squire Grooktook]

More like "which were you aquainted with first?

I heard EGM mention Ika once when talking about Metroid Prime 2 ("so basically, the new ammo system is a lot like Gamecube shooter Ikaruga"), and that was it.