Shmups and RPGs- making a good hybrid

[ShmupSamurai]

Not sure if I should even be posting such a topic, but I felt I needed to A) get this off my chest; and B) I'd like to see what others think on this matter(though, I have a feeling 50% of this forum shout "BLASPHEMY!!" or call me a heretic). Here it goes:

A recent play of Xenogears, RSG, and fond memories of Panzer Dragoon Saga got me thinking - If an JRPG can make its battles more involving and Panzer Dragoon- a railshooter franchise- was able transend genres to an RPG with a battle system that still carried the same feel of the prequels w/out going full action while fleshing out the games' world- can a shmup not do the same?

And no, I don't mean like those crappy flash shmups with rpg stats tacked on like a gimmick. I mean actually taking elements from genres, putting them together, and actually doing them justice.

I've had the idea to do JUST that, but I don't want to end up botching it...So I rather hear what others have to say first.

*Braces self for possible lambasting*

[mosey]

Let's use a booze analogy: whiskey > wine > beer > water > tea > coffee > espresso.

If Ketsui is whiskey and SMT IV is espresso, mixing elements to form something in between is possible, but be prepared for something less pure. The player should anticipate that too.

[Rozyrg]

Something else to consider: the Ys series, especially in some of the big boss battles, has some pretty hardcore memory/reflex taxing action elements that would be right at home in an arcade shooter; but it also succeeds in most all of the traditional JRPG stuff, too. Good story, memorable characters, awesome music, the feeling of being within a vast world, etc.

That would be the example I'd follow. I've been tempted to try myself a few times; but that's one out of a hundred game ideas I'd like to work on at any given time.

[Xyga]

Yes one could always replace single world locations by multiple planets/space stations etc, and map/dungeons by space travels/shmup levels in-between.
Some parts on land/atmosphere or inside gigantic structures ala layer section (layer section rpg with zuntata music ftw *drool*).
Maybe some ftl warping goodness to unknown locations and civilizations ala star ocean.

Upgradeable ship with shops and maybe a kind of legendary mechanic side quest (doesn't have to be a dwarf but could 'forge' new ships like in secret of mana ^^).

Don't know about a multiple character/ship system though... something ala secret of mana again but less 'dumb' ?
Or maybe the other characters could be part of your single ship's crew and have different roles (attack, support etc).

[ciox]

You should start by checking out already released shmup RPGs and seeing what beef people have with them, for instance RSG has mostly linear stage progression but you must still grind to get your stats up, meaning your game can actually be over long before you start getting hit, a sensible complaint.
You can check out Psyvariar (the early good ones) and its understated RPG mechanics for an idea, just about everything you do in the game will level you up increasing your weapon power, and after each stage you get to pick where to go next from a carousel of 3-4 stages and you can compare your level vs. the stage's level to figure out how strong your weapons will be, and you can take chances like going for a high level stage's rewards even though it means your weapons will be underpowered. You also get forcibly "challenged" by dangerous stages when you reach certain level peaks.

The way I'd make it is have several "worlds" with branching stages, where you can take an easy path or tough but rewarding path to the end of each world, the worlds also provide some feedback to the player of what they should prepare with, like a world with swarms of insectoids which you will have a tougher (but not impossible!) time with if you don't invest strongly in your spreadshot in some earlier world, since you can level up your spreadshot in the world itself but it's slow enough that being already prepared is worthwhile. At the same time each world will slightly punish you for not having a somewhat balanced character, tossing a lot more than just its "specialty" at the player. Basically make the player use RPG player skills like anticipating what their character must do.
Do a lot of playtesting to make sure weird situations don't show up, like unkillable enemies.

Anyway, as long as you make it clear you aren't going for the 100% arcade experience, there should be no trouble.

[mice]

I'd play a good hybrid, for sure. Especially if the theme is to my liking.

Edit: It should include grinding, shops, worlds that opens up when getting better ways of long-distance travelling. Just like any FF.

[beermat]

edit: I realise you didn't ask for an example, but I think an ideal hybrid can exist and here's my approximation. Maybe forget the trading mechanic

A space trading and combat game like freelancer, with shmup mechanics.

• Free-roaming space travel, populated with other ships and places to go (implemented as an arena-shooter)
• Score is money
• Whenever you die you lose half your score
• You can go to planets and stations to find jobs, buy upgrades, new ships, supplies to trade etc
• Optional bulletin-board jobs are procedurally generated levels (of any shmup style you want), typically with the goal of destroying a person or base your employer doesn't like, or stealing something

Single player:

• Loads of factions that people can be affiliated to, and have complex relationships with you and each other (allowing the free-roaming view to have random encounters, different areas to be safer than others etc)
• A storyline, that lets you make proper scripted levels (of any shmup style you want)
• Storyline unlocks new locations with new opportunities (upgrades, harder gameplay etc)
• Game over once storyline is complete

Multiplayer:

• Many play in the same universe. Can fight randomly when free-roaming, team up to do hard levels, compete by playing the same level in parallel, compete via a free-for-all 'Versus Shmup' level etc
• Compete for score
• Time-limited. Everyone starts and finishes at the same time relatively close to each other, and can do what they want to try and win. Typically ends in a manic race to the top by killing those with a higher score than you
• Maybe proper team play

If I had infinite time to spare, it's a game I would make.

[Taizen Chisou]

Some friends of mine over on 64Digits were tossing around ideas for making this sort of thing happen.

Essentially, you would go on an adventure, by choosing four party members (There were plans to include a choice of up to 12 or so) each with different shottype configurations and abilities.

Controlling them was the standard "tap Z to shoot regularly, hold down for special and to slow down" business with X for bombs and C for swapping out to different members.
Defeating enemies contributed to your experience, which capped at Level 30. I believe defeating midbosses was an automatic +1 level and endbosses were +3, so even the pacifist runners won't be set too far back (They'd just have to put up with waiting out the final boss at level 17)
To avoid adding a randomized player power element to the game, everything was hard calculated given pre-defined base stats, and damage towards the enemies was also fixed (that is to say, that there was no random multiplication in play.)

Discrepancies between players involved HP and HP growth, shot power and growth, range, spread, refire rate, hitbox, grazebox, bomb range and power.
Getting hit subtracted from that player's HP count, and if they were to die completely (Which usually took 2 to 5 hits) then they'd be out for the remainder of the stage.

Item drops served as currency, which you could use to raise bomb caps and give bonus experience to your party between stages.




It was a pretty sweet idea, but actually developing it fell through because it was one in a line of "community" games that expected input from everyone, which, you can guess how well that would have gone

[Lord Satori]

I support this idea.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Something else to consider: the Ys series, especially in some of the big boss battles, has some pretty hardcore memory/reflex taxing action elements that would be right at home in an arcade shooter; but it also succeeds in most all of the traditional JRPG stuff, too. Good story, memorable characters, awesome music, the feeling of being within a vast world, etc.

That would be the example I'd follow. I've been tempted to try myself a few times; but that's one out of a hundred game ideas I'd like to work on at any given time.

Ys Origin with Hugo is supposed to feel kind of like that IIRC. Hugo is also pretty boring and easy, but it does feel like they were going for that with his playstyle. Though I prefer playing Yunica and Toal which are closer to the playstyle of the other Ys games. Hugo may be more interesting if you forbid yourself from using his wind spell outside of when it's actually necessary.

[ShmupSamurai]

I just thought I'd let you guys know that I really enjoyed reading all the posts so far- At first, I was afraid of getting bashed and that no one would actually put any input into this thread-but you've all put out some really inspiring ideas.

I especially liked Taizen's concept. Psyvariar's levelselect, "Level Up" mechanics, and "stage stats" give some interesting ideas as well.

[NERDtendo]

It seems like Purikura Daisakusen (Saturn and ST-V) kinda falls into the category of SHMUP/RPG hybrid. There's the option of shooting with your wand or using a hammer. You collect either jewels or critters to change how your partner, which starts as a useless egg, evolves. Boss battles, power ups, status bars, etc.

Also, the idea of choosing your path and difficulty as ciox suggested is kinda like Deathsmiles with their choose your next level and difficulty where the "rewards" is higher scores for more difficult settings.

All this to say I would definitely be interested in a SHMUP / RPG mash-up...

[RegalSin]

Had an idea like that earlier, don't know how to program games in 3d yet, need the time as well. But it can also be done in 2d as well.

[BryanM]

Diablo clones are Robotron-style shoot them ups. The worst element of it is backtracking or catching up with a party by walking through cleared areas with no monsters in them. It is the death of fun, when you feel like no progress is being made.

Realm of the Mad God is a Diablo clone that falls closer to the shooter side of the spectrum.



An idea that goes around here often is the R-Type As A Roguelike concept. I think if you're going for fixed scrolling and not Robotron-arena style movement, that exploration shouldn't be linked to your combat engine. By this I mean to say that I think Defender style controls are kind of shit and only make a game worse.

I recommend separating the tactical and strategic layers like the Dragon Quests and Monster Hunters already do. An engine for combat, a separate engine (just menus would be sufficient) for town+equipment upgrades.* For the titular R-Type Roguelike, I recommend a Fastcrawl-esque map screen where you select uncleared rooms to explore the dungeon, so there's no backtracking, no repetition, or awkward Defender controls.

* If you want to have a Diablo style random item drop system, you accomplish it by having monsters drop crafting materials so there's no eyeballing stats in the middle of a fight. There's no difference between a random rare item dropping off a monster and getting a generic Rare Orb that you cash in for a random rare item later.

[ShmupSamurai]

Diablo clones are Robotron-style shoot them ups. The worst element of it is backtracking or catching up with a party by walking through cleared areas with no monsters in them. It is the death of fun, when you feel like no progress is being made.

Realm of the Mad God is a Diablo clone that falls closer to the shooter side of the spectrum.



An idea that goes around here often is the R-Type As A Roguelike concept. I think if you're going for fixed scrolling and not Robotron-arena style movement, that exploration shouldn't be linked to your combat engine. By this I mean to say that I think Defender style controls are kind of shit and only make a game worse.

I recommend separating the tactical and strategic layers like the Dragon Quests and Monster Hunters already do. An engine for combat, a separate engine (just menus would be sufficient) for town+equipment upgrades.* For the titular R-Type Roguelike, I recommend a Fastcrawl-esque map screen where you select uncleared rooms to explore the dungeon, so there's no backtracking, no repetition, or awkward Defender controls.

* If you want to have a Diablo style random item drop system, you accomplish it by having monsters drop crafting materials so there's no eyeballing stats in the middle of a fight. There's no difference between a random rare item dropping off a monster and getting a generic Rare Orb that you cash in for a random rare item later.

Whew...it's been awhile since I was last here.

While this is a pretty interesting idea and I do enjoy a good run NetHack or Crossfire(not THAT Crossfire) from time to time- roguelikes are a genre outside of my game dev skill range, and I'm not quite that big on R-type.

I'm more of a story crafter and artist- so my aim is more of a PSX-1/Saturn era JRPG/Shmup hybrid.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

While this is a pretty interesting idea and I do enjoy a good run NetHack or Crossfire

Crossfire really is an awesome real-time MMO (not so much MMO since its playerbase is small). It's fun having to attack and dodge in realtime, lots of races to play (karate dragon monks, yes) though against dragons and stuff with wave spells it gets crowded. You can only really dodge beam based attacks and single projectile bullet type spells reliably (and even then electric dragons tend to spam lightning beams). I remember installing a linux build specifically to play it... I need to get back into it again.

I always liked how Guardic Gaiden did it, scoring was tied to your max health and you could grind for health upgrades, explore for items... that was more of an adventure/shmup hybrid though. I guess the issue with an RPG/shmup hybrid is you don't want the player to be able to get too overpowered too easily. Maybe make the upgrades more about unlocking alternative weapons, but try to keep them relatively balanced in terms of usefulness? Dunno.

Does the iOS/Android arrange version of Deathsmiles count as an RPG hybrid? You collect and acquire items that boost your stats, and you can replay stages to earn better equipment...

[Krooze L-Roy]

Anybody here ever try Sigma Star Saga? Pretty typical JRPG format, but with shmup snippets in place of the random battles. I didn't get too far into it, as I found little crossover between "RPG mood" and "shmup mood," but it was a noble attempt.

Personally, even though I have a pretty long attention span, shmups inspire some sort of temporary ADHD in me. If a game seems to place emphasis on it's story, I'll placidly watch the intro, but that all goes out the window once the shmupping begins. As soon as the first boss opens a dialog box for some philosophical discourse, I just say oh fuck it, and pound buttons until he shuts up. I think any successful crossover would have to ADHD-ify the RPG bits. Or at any rate, it would require a mastery of the art of pacing.

[nekketsu]

Anybody here ever try Sigma Star Saga? Pretty typical JRPG format, but with shmup snippets in place of the random battles. I didn't get too far into it, as I found little crossover between "RPG mood" and "shmup mood," but it was a noble attempt.

Personally, even though I have a pretty long attention span, shmups inspire some sort of temporary ADHD in me. If a game seems to place emphasis on it's story, I'll placidly watch the intro, but that all goes out the window once the shmupping begins. As soon as the first boss opens a dialog box for some philosophical discourse, I just say oh fuck it, and pound buttons until he shuts up. I think any successful crossover would have to ADHD-ify the RPG bits. Or at any rate, it would require a mastery of the art of pacing.

I was just about to mention Sigma. It was interesting, but I think it was more admirable than enjoyable to me. I guess when it comes down to it I enjoy the "no frills" approach of straight-up shmups. Pacing really would be the toughest part of making a successful hybrid. And even then I think the appeal would always lean more toward the RPG crowd. I have a friend, a die-hard RPG fan who would never give any shmup the time of day, who always gives Sigma Star Saga high praise. Any shmuppers I have asked about it consider it "okay."

[ShmupSamurai]

As a matter of fact, I bought Sigma Star Saga when it was brand new- played the shiza outta it and for the most part, enjoyed every minute of it(however, I do agree the balancing was WAAAY off).

In my spare time, I have thought up two different "battle systems" for a JRpg/Shmup hybrid-

1. You go into battle with 3 party members. Taking an idea from a certain shmup w/ dolls whos name I can never remember(but it has a suicide button), the ships face down the "battle stage" one at a time. While in action, a "Turn" timer ticks down rapidly, when it times out- the next character in line trades places with the current one.

The switching order is dictated by their Speed stat. If a ship is hit, it loses HP and instantly switches out with the next ship. A defeated ship is rendered unuseable for the rest of the "battle stage" and is skipped over in the turn cycle. Z= vulcan/normal shot X= Character skill.


2. Each round of combat is divided into two turns or "phases". In the "Attack" phase, the party can't move, but they can target and attack the enemies. Once the "Next" timer times out, the "Evade" phase initiates: in the "Evade" phase, it's the enemies' turn to attack. The party can now move and must dodge the enemies' fire until the "Next" timer ticks down again.

Moves like a standard rapid fire/normal shot can only target a single enemy, a spreadshot type can attack a group of three, a homing shot will lock on to a number of randomly selected targets, a laser will do heavy damage to a single target etc. Z= character normal X+ a direction= character specials(consumes a bomb stock). Specials consume your bomb stock, which is charged by grazing bullets. The Next timer will probably 5 to 10 seconds long, and goes down fairly fast, so battles should move pretty fast. Larger enemies and bosses will have multiple target points to select- with only one weakpoint, the other parts usually control bullet patterns and give extra exp for their destruction.

[Krooze L-Roy]

I had an idea for a roguelike shmup, though only truly rogue-like in a limited sense.

Picture something like Radiant Silvergun's story mode, where you start the game very underpowered, but in this case, when you die (and you would only get a single life), you don't get to save your progress. In place of a panic bomb, you have a warp button, which brings you back to the town at the beginning of the game, where you can buy more powerful weapons, options, and what have you. Try again, get further, and warp back when you feel like you're about to die. Rinse, repeat, until you're horribly overpowered, and then die stupidly from overconfidence. Cry.

And naturally, you'd wanna bloat the game up with all the trappings, like townsfolk giving you side-missions, a casino minigame to fuck with, and prepubescent anime chicks to romance. Always a good idea to have some aspects of progression that aren't affected by permadeath too, otherwise modern players would get mopey.

[mice]

In my spare time, I have thought up two different

I vote for option 1. Do it already.