Console and monitor setup

Thrill · Post by **Thrill** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:56 am

I'm trying to come up with a setup that has the least amount of input lag averaged across most of the gaming systems that can be played on a modern. By this I mean from like 240p SNES to 1080p PS4. My knowledge about all this is rather limited but this is what I can figure as a decent setup.

I guess we should start with a pretty fast gaming monitor. Something like the BenQ RL2455HM seems to be what everyone is getting. That gives us HDMI, VGA and DVI to work with. I guess that's every monitor anyway....

We'll start with the easy consoles. 360, PS4 etc are HDMI. No trouble here.

If we come into contact with the Wii, PS2, Gamecube (basically a 480i/480p component console) we should use a component to VGA converter or a HDMI converter? Maybe additional lag in going HDMI so keep it analog I guess.

As for retro consoles, connect with RGB SCART and use a Sync Strike to connect it to the VGA port? Obviously this depends on being able to accept 15 kHz over VGA but it seems like some monitors can.

Any changes to that?

ZellSF · Post by **ZellSF** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:14 am

First, gaming monitor. The one you mentioned is terrible. You don't buy a TN monitor unless you're on a very limited budget. If you're console gaming only you want a good quality *VA or IPS panel. Both panel types far far exceed TN panels in image quality and you can get ones with neglible input lag.

If you're PC gaming you need to consider 120hz (I'm thinking Eizo's "240hz" panel is your best choice by far here), higher than 1080p resolution screens and if you're really patient... wait for g-sync monitors.

Second, very very few monitors support 15khz, limiting your monitor choices to ones that support 15khz over just getting a line doubler (there's one coming soon that's estimated to be around 100$) is not a good idea.

Third, you're wasting your time by planning for every fictional scenario. Buy things as you need them.

matrigs · Post by **matrigs** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:24 am

Thrill wrote:Obviously this depends on being able to accept 15 kHz over VGA but it seems like some monitors can.

I would assume this monitor doesn't accept 15 kHz signals. Also, i wouldn't care about trying to find one which does, rather concentrate on other aspects of the screen (picture quality, lag etc.)

Thrill wrote:We'll start with the easy consoles. 360, PS4 etc are HDMI. No trouble here.

Hdmi sources are covered.

Thrill wrote:If we come into contact with the Wii, PS2, Gamecube (basically a 480i/480p component console) we should use a component to VGA converter or a HDMI converter? Maybe additional lag in going HDMI so keep it analog I guess.

I would try to go progressive, and you can with all of these sources. First of all, with a Wii, the Gamecube is unnecessary. And you get component out, and progressive for a lot of games.

With the PS2 you can force a lot of games into 480p with HDXploder or GSMode Selector.

In both cases, you still need VGA with that particular screen. Here you have several choices:

- For the PS2, both HDXploder or GSMode Selector have an option to output VGA in RGsB format. If you are lucky, the screen might accept Sync on Green. If not, you can use an Extron RGB device to split the Sync into H-Sync and V-sync.

- You could use a Component - HDMI converter like this one (recommended by Fudoh himself): http://www.ebay.com/itm/350862087483

- I have seen this a few days ago, although i have no idea how good / bad this works: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AV-HDTV-TV-PC-M ... 2a2c2eda71

But it looks like a simple transcoder built into the cable. Might be alright.

Thrill wrote:As for retro consoles

Now this is a whole other topic. If you haven't, start from reading Fudohs' site: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

Then decide what kind of device you can afford.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:06 am

I made a thread about this not long ago:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=47658

I'm sensitive to lag which ruins the experience for me. I ended up buying the Dell S2740L monitor which has DVI, HDMI, VGA, an IPS screen and 3ms input lag.

Review here:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_s2740l.htm

I think it's the fastest IPS monitor out, if you find something better please let me know!

Then for hooking up all your old consoles (apart from the HDMI ones) I got an XRGB-3 which used in B1 mode will give you virtually no lag. This line doubles the image and gives you an option for scan lines.

I have an Eizo FG2421 monitor and although it's an amazing monitor, if input lag is your main concern it feels laggier than my Dell, it is reviewed to be too. It's also a lot more expensive because it's high end for PC gaming.

I wouldn't go for the XRGB Mini Framemeister either as it unfortunately lags atleast 1-2 frames through its HDMI output.

I believe this is the fastest way to play consoles, the only issue I had with the XRGB-3 is having to mod a couple consoles to use Luminance to sync instead of composite video sync, which is simple to do.

I have SNES, Megadrive, Wii/GameCube, PSOne and PS2 all connected to the front RGB Scart Game in connection via a Bandibridge scart switcher. The PS2 and GameCube can use 480p through the front game in too, for the Wii I used a little component to scart adapter. With the PS2 you can set it in the system options to output component over its RGB cable.

The HDMi consoles, Xbox360 and PS3 plus soon to be PS4 I have going through a HDMI switcher. This is the one I got:

Ex-Pro® AV-Pro 5 Port HDMI IR Remote Switch 5 in 1 out 1080p Full HD v1.4 3D

blizzz · Post by **blizzz** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:49 pm

Thrill wrote:If we come into contact with the Wii, PS2, Gamecube (basically a 480i/480p component console) we should use a component to VGA converter or a HDMI converter? Maybe additional lag in going HDMI so keep it analog I guess.

I've got the LKV5000 (LKV354) converter that Fudoh recommended. It's on par with my TV, but not quite as sharp as the Micomsoft card. Overall I'd still recommend it, especially for 480p content.

Speaking about HDMI, you should also consider that an AVR might add lag. I've got a splitter sitting in front of mine that routes all gaming signals directly to the TV. I'm not sure if my receiver (Yamaha RX-V475) adds any lag, especially when it's turned off and just acts as a passthrough, but to be safe I added the splitter.

shmuppyLove · Post by **shmuppyLove** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:03 pm

You could also use a GBS-8220 for component -> VGA conversion.

I keep meaning to try this with my Wii but haven't had a chance yet. And my TV has component input anyway, so not much incentive, only I think the GBS-8220 would do a better job of upscaling.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:04 pm

shmuppyLove wrote:You could also use a GBS-8220 for component -> VGA conversion.

I keep meaning to try this with my Wii but haven't had a chance yet. And my TV has component input anyway, so not much incentive, only I think the GBS-8220 would do a better job of upscaling.

I believe this adds alot to input lag though?

matrigs · Post by **matrigs** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:28 pm

brownvim wrote:
shmuppyLove wrote:You could also use a GBS-8220 for component -> VGA conversion.

I keep meaning to try this with my Wii but haven't had a chance yet. And my TV has component input anyway, so not much incentive, only I think the GBS-8220 would do a better job of upscaling.
I believe this adds alot to input lag though?

A negligible amount.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:37 pm

matrigs wrote:
brownvim wrote:
shmuppyLove wrote:You could also use a GBS-8220 for component -> VGA conversion.

I keep meaning to try this with my Wii but haven't had a chance yet. And my TV has component input anyway, so not much incentive, only I think the GBS-8220 would do a better job of upscaling.
I believe this adds alot to input lag though?
A negligible amount.

On Fudohs site it says 2 frames processing, negligible to some, bad for me.

matrigs · Post by **matrigs** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:46 pm

brownvim wrote:
matrigs wrote:
A negligible amount.
On Fudohs site it says 2 frames processing, negligible to some, bad for me.

Wait wait. I'm sure he's mentioning 2 frames when deinterlacing is applied.

Only transcoding the signal from progressive component to vga, should add a negigible amount.

Shmuppylove didn't precise this, but i assume he was thinking about transcoding 480p from the Wii.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:50 pm

Oh right, makes sense what your saying, whether the GBS does it that way I don't know.

matrigs · Post by **matrigs** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:03 pm

brownvim wrote:Oh right, makes sense what your saying, whether the GBS does it that way I don't know.

Yes it does. I was using it myself for this purpose. I stopped using it though because imho it adds a lot of noise to the output.

shmuppyLove · Post by **shmuppyLove** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:22 pm

A small amount of lag would be fine, I don't tend to play fast twitchy games on my Wii. But noise is no good, I wonder why?

I guess it depends on whether the component transcoder on the TV is better or worse than the GBS-8220. I was going to set up my supergun today for some testing, I can give it a shot and see ...

Edit: Played a few games, it looks about the same to me, only unfortunately the one widescreen resolution the GBS-8220 will output isn't recognized by my TV (1360x768), so looks like I'll be sticking with component for now.
Edit2: Switched back to component, it looks better. Oh well.

Thrill · Post by **Thrill** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:32 pm

Thanks everyone. I'm most interested by brownvim's setup and mentioning the Dell.

It actually got me thinking, I have a Dell U2410 that I gave to my brother for his illustration work. I did some Googling and it looks like that monitor can accept 15kHz over VGA: http://forum.classicamiga.com/forum/sho ... -the-Amiga

I searched for input lag values and it does say 14 ms in game mode so still under a frame. Additionally it also has component inputs which I completely forgot about......

I'll have to get the monitor and do some tests to see if it's adequate.

Just one question with this though. For audio I have to use the Dell sound bar or my own speakers right? How do I get audio from HDMI if I am connecting it to the Dell? Will it pass the HDMI audio to the audio out port?

blizzz · Post by **blizzz** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:41 pm

Can't say anything about the U2410, but the component quality on the U2711 is the worst I've ever seen.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:14 pm

Thrill wrote:Thanks everyone. I'm most interested by brownvim's setup and mentioning the Dell.

It actually got me thinking, I have a Dell U2410 that I gave to my brother for his illustration work. I did some Googling and it looks like that monitor can accept 15kHz over VGA: http://forum.classicamiga.com/forum/sho ... -the-Amiga

I searched for input lag values and it does say 14 ms in game mode so still under a frame. Additionally it also has component inputs which I completely forgot about......

I'll have to get the monitor and do some tests to see if it's adequate.

Just one question with this though. For audio I have to use the Dell sound bar or my own speakers right? How do I get audio from HDMI if I am connecting it to the Dell? Will it pass the HDMI audio to the audio out port?

On my Dell the audio is passed out the audio out port when I use HDMI.

Thrill · Post by **Thrill** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:49 pm

Just out of curiosity I got my hands on the monitor and hooked up RGB SCART to the VGA port via Sync Strike. It looked pretty awful compared to my aging Sony TV. I'm gonna guess component is just as bad like blizz said.

ZellSF · Post by **ZellSF** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:17 am

Yeah, just because the monitor supports 15khz doesn't mean it'll look good. I mean, all TVs support 15khz and most of us here buy scalers to get rid of the awful picture quality that gives.

It's promising that the monitor doesn't restrict itself strictly to standards though, might mean you'll have luck with a combination of a linedoubler and consoles that do not output exactly 59.94hz.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:54 am

My Dell S2740L does PAL games (50hz) over the VGA cable which is meant to be "rare"

Thrill · Post by **Thrill** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:34 pm

ZellSF wrote:Yeah, just because the monitor supports 15khz doesn't mean it'll look good. I mean, all TVs support 15khz and most of us here buy scalers to get rid of the awful picture quality that gives

So will getting a cga to vga converter/scaler improve the quality on the same monitor or will it still be a lost cause?

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:21 am

Something else to ponder - it's early days still but G-SYNC supporting monitors are coming out, like these:
http://overlordcomputer.com/collections/27-monitors

There are other manufacturers considering making these as well. I certainly wouldn't consider G-SYNC ready monitors (i.e., they just need the optional G-SYNC module installed) to be a bad future investment.

ZellSF · Post by **ZellSF** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:04 am

Thrill wrote:
ZellSF wrote:Yeah, just because the monitor supports 15khz doesn't mean it'll look good. I mean, all TVs support 15khz and most of us here buy scalers to get rid of the awful picture quality that gives
So will getting a cga to vga converter/scaler improve the quality on the same monitor or will it still be a lost cause?

If Dell monitors processes 240p like mostly all HDTVs do... then yes, a linedoubler will be a huge improvement.

Thrill · Post by **Thrill** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:24 am

Can anyone find values for any of these Samsung sets? Some are billed as monitors: http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/samsung-tv ... teria.html

The SAMSUNG LT24C350 caught my eye. Has everything I would need.

Xyga · Post by **Xyga** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:45 am

I'm afaraid nobody cares to review this particular type of displays (smaller monitor/tv combos) so you won't find any detailed information.
Most are equipped with an awaful TN panel, with overall poor lag & reactivity performance.

ZellSF · Post by **ZellSF** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:56 am

Xyga wrote:I'm afaraid nobody cares to review this particular type of displays (smaller monitor/tv combos) so you won't find any detailed information.
Most are equipped with an awaful TN panel, with overall poor lag & reactivity performance.

Uh? TNs are known for their responsitivity. Their downsides is their viewing angles and poor color reproduction. The viewing angles being the worst one.

Xyga · Post by **Xyga** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:50 am

Many IPS panels with acceleration offer extremely close to identical response times today.
Even some VA are catching up.

There's really no reason to stick to TN today unless you're exclusively into high-level FPS gaming.

ZellSF · Post by **ZellSF** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:08 am

Xyga wrote:Many IPS panels with acceleration offer extremely close to identical response times today.
Even some VA are catching up.

There's really no reason to stick to TN today unless you're exclusively into high-level FPS gaming.

I wasn't recommending TN panels, I was just correcting your statement since it seemed to imply that TN panels are laggy or have poor "reactivity performance". Both input lag and pixel response times are areas where TN monitors are generally better.

There's really no reason to stick to TN today unless you're exclusively into high-level FPS gaming.

Not really worth it for that either, as I mentioned if the new 240hz Eizo's input lag is low enough, that's what you should be buying if you're into PC gaming and have to buy something now (but I'd wait for g-sync monitors).

Xyga · Post by **Xyga** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:22 am

I meant those particular sets (small tv/monitor combos) are certainly not equiped with TNs backed-up with fast response electronics.
They're just entry level displays made with convenience and low-cost in mind.

And input lag has not much to do with response time.

Anyway whoever is thinking about tate-ing his display should absolutely avoid TNs.

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