I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

[MrOldSchoolCool]

for the perception of this genre.

I know most of you guys could care less about what other people think, but I feel like they've offered some really positive unique energy to the genre (in terms of the way some gamers look at it).

While a more educated look at most shmups will reveal unique scoring systems, Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga truly do some unique things.

I'm glad to see that a lot of people on this forum like the games and don't consider them to be blasphemy to the purist roots of the genre.

[Koa Zo]

Yeah Ikaruga brought a couple of my old friends back into shmup gaming.
Guys who were way into Scramble, and R-Type, and Space Megaforce ...but then fell into Final Fantasy and Zelda and not much else.

[Pretas]

I disagree. The effects of the fawning of Western players over RSG and Ikaruga were limited to Treasure's own reputation, and never sparked a significant surge of interest and acclaim for the genre at large. It didn't even have much to do with the games themselves, being mostly limited to their artistic qualities. Few people have the patience or inclination to practice the unforgiving chaining mechanics, especially in RSG, where not chaining at all will eventually make it impossible to kill bosses in time.

[Plasmo]

Ikaruga had a huge impact on the genre. Without this game, shmups wouldn't be the same as they are today. The community here at shmups.com got many new members around 2003 (including myself), and people who didn't know about shmups at all got suddenly interested solely because of Ikaruga. Probably the most important thing though is the attention it got from various media like game magazines.

It was Ikaruga that made the casual gamer know that this genre still exists. Who knows, without Ikaruga, shmups could very well be dead already. Cave themselve never made such a popular title (not even Deathsmiles).

[MrOldSchoolCool]

I disagree. The effects of the fawning of Western players over RSG and Ikaruga were limited to Treasure's own reputation, and never sparked a significant surge of interest and acclaim for the genre at large. It didn't even have much to do with the games themselves, being mostly limited to their artistic qualities. Few people have the patience or inclination to practice the unforgiving chaining mechanics, especially in RSG, where not chaining at all will eventually make it impossible to kill bosses in time.

Well, I definitely think there's some grey area on this. I think it would be unfair to say that the games didn't have an impact because they didn't reignite the genre at large. It certainly scared away a lot of gamers, but I think in a lot of cases it at least caught their eye and made them acknowledge that something unique was being done.

[Squire Grooktook]

and never sparked a significant surge of interest and acclaim for the genre at large.

Who knows, without Ikaruga, shmups could very well be dead already.

Just to chime in here, but my feeling is that niche genres will always be niche. Just because the game didn't bring shmups into every household doesn't mean the game didn't have influence or impact.

On the other hand, I don't think shmups would have "died" or even can die. The worst that could happen is that commercial shmups become exceedingly rare, but even than you can always fall back on homebrew/indie/doujin games coded in a basement with vector graphics.

Anyway, myself personally I like Ika and RSG. They're not perfect, but they definitely have their strong points, and I find it strange when people refuse to acknowledge those strong points.

[Bananamatic]

>Ikaruga
>not Touhou

let's be honest, touhou introduced a lot more people to shmups than ikaruga - and a lot of those are some of the best players in the west atm

[AntiFritz]

>Ikaruga
>not Touhou

let's be honest, touhou introduced a lot more people to shmups than ikaruga - and a lot of those are some of the best players in the west atm

This is probably more likely. Most people that played ikaruga probably didn't play any other shmups after it.

[MrOldSchoolCool]

and never sparked a significant surge of interest and acclaim for the genre at large.

Who knows, without Ikaruga, shmups could very well be dead already.

Just to chime in here, but my feeling is that niche genres will always be niche. Just because the game didn't bring shmups into every household doesn't mean the game didn't have influence or impact.

On the other hand, I don't think shmups would have "died" or even can die. The worst that could happen is that commercial shmups become exceedingly rare, but even than you can always fall back on homebrew/indie/doujin games coded in a basement with vector graphics.

Anyway, myself personally I like Ika and RSG. They're not perfect, but they definitely have their strong points, and I find it strange when people refuse to acknowledge those strong points.

I agree completely with this.

[Pretas]

Ikaruga was also a Gamecube exclusive (a relatively unpopular console) in the West for years, while all the Touhou games are available on PC with low system requirements and have been very widely pirated.

I got the impression that Ikaruga was only a passing interest for most US/EU players, who then went back to playing typical console games. Not so for Touhou's rabid following.

[Squire Grooktook]

Ikaruga was also a Gamecube exclusive (a relatively unpopular console) in the West for years, while all the Touhou games are available on PC with low system requirements and have been very widely pirated.

I got the impression that Ikaruga was only a passing interest for most US/EU players, who then went back to playing typical console games. Not so for Touhou's rabid following.

This is probably true, but without any kind of statistics it pretty much comes to an anecdote contest of "I had a friend who started playing shmups because he came across some Touhou Hentai." Vs "I had a friend who started playing shmups because he found Ikaruga in a Game Cube bargain bin" etc.

Also let's not forget that just like a lot of people who liked Ikaruga may not have gone on to play anything else, many self proclaimed Touhou fans don't like/don't play Touhou and are just in it for the music/fan art/fan fiction.

Like I said I'd still wager that it's still a larger number of people that got into the genre thanks to Touhou, but in that case it's still due to a factor that was separate from the gameplay (easily obtainable, the music, the fanbase and all its creations, having a world for people to write fan fiction about, etc.).

[KAI]

Toho_kids.flv

Thanks to Ikaruga people think 2D shmups are crap.

[drauch]

I think it goes a bit both ways.

Ikaruga possibly brought in a lot of new people, but it probably gave a fairly jaded perception to just as many others. I can't imagine the droves of people that were interested, then immediately were just as UNinterested because other games weren't like Ikaruga. I've got a friend who's just like that: came for Ikaruga, refuses to play anything else because it's not as impressive.

Same thing applies to Touhou. How many Touhou fans actually stick around before the whole "wacky Japanese" thing wears off?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Gradius V made me think more of the genre. Treasure's reputation had nothing to do with it; I just found the game to be fun. Then I stumbled upon words "Touhou" and "Cave" on the same page of certain forum, in a thread about Gradius V (someone asked what's the deal with small hitbox).
The only arcade-like game somewhat related to doujin circles with all benefit of inventory I'd played before was Melty Blood: Act Cadenza.
Nowadays when I want to show newcomers the ropes, Raiden III on PC works for me.

[Special World]

Yeah, I think people generally just think Ikaruga is awesome and the rest of the genre sucks. I don't know whether it's helped or hurt the genre (probably helped) but most praise doesn't go past that one game.

Personally I like Ikaruga but can't stand Silvergun.

[royalfan84]

Ikaruga and RSG are directly responsible for getting me interested in the genre. And most recently a few of my friends that I've gotten hooked it's been Ikaruga (along with rsg, raiden fighters aces) that has mostly got them hooked. Ikaruga is a main draw for gamers that haven't played many or any shmups previously. Eventually they may find other shmup titles they like more than Ikaruga or RSG. But those two are directly responsible for the upstart in interest in my friends and I. And RSG is still my overall favorite so far. Great games.

[royalfan84]

I agree Raiden III is great game to start on.

[MrOldSchoolCool]

As much as I don't want this topic to get sidetracked, I have to ask a question.

Isn't Touhou a PC exclusive and therefore mostly known by PC Gamers? How mainstream is PC gaming? Has it received any media attention?

IDK, I just feel like more people would know what Ikaruga is than Touhou.

[Obiwanshinobi]

IDK, I just feel like more people would know what Ikaruga is than Touhou.

You'd need to know which was pirated more to get any idea which is better known. I for one am pretty sure PC is, world-wide, the single most mainstream platform to date. There are countries in Far East, Eastern Europe, presumably Latin America too, where everything else is marginal.
Although technically cel phones must be the most widespread gaming devices.

[hail good sir]

Yeah, I think people generally just think Ikaruga is awesome and the rest of the genre sucks. I don't know whether it's helped or hurt the genre (probably helped) but most praise doesn't go past that one game.

Personally I like Ikaruga but can't stand Silvergun.

I really like Ikaruga and the physical act of playing it, but this phenomenon will forever bug me to death and I don't understand it.

[dark]

I think Ikaruga is fun and accessible to a lot of new-to-the-genre players because of the bullet eating mechanic, and the fact that bullet patterns are relatively simple in the first 2 levels. It also didn't hurt that it had amazing graphics for its time and was a pretty epic swansong for the cult-popular dreamcast.

Friends that I have, who cannot stand bullet hell type games a la Cave, enjoy Ikaruga and feel like they have a fighting chance of living since they do not have to dodge every last bullet on the screen. Many of these friends never graduated into playing other games in the genre, b/c the aspect they appreciate - the polarity switching/save yourself from half the stuff on the screen - was unique to Ikaruga for a long time (absent a few doujin pc titles that were inspired by Ikaruga, such as rRootage.


For people new to the genre, I think scoring mechanics aren't even on the radar for whether they enjoy the game or not. Instead, it's gameplay mechanics and their feeling of whether they have a good shot at surviving and getting good at the game, without putting in 30+ hours of practice. If they die 10 or 20 times on the first level b/c the screen is full of bullets they have to dodge, people new to the genre are going to be turned off. That's been my experience when showing my games to average gamers at any rate.

[MrOldSchoolCool]

I think Ikaruga is fun and accessible to a lot of new-to-the-genre players because of the bullet eating mechanic, and the fact that bullet patterns are relatively simple in the first 2 levels. It also didn't hurt that it had amazing graphics for its time and was a pretty epic swansong for the cult-popular dreamcast.

Friends that I have, who cannot stand bullet hell type games a la Cave, enjoy Ikaruga and feel like they have a fighting chance of living since they do not have to dodge every last bullet on the screen. Many of these friends never graduated into playing other games in the genre, b/c the aspect they appreciate - the polarity switching/save yourself from half the stuff on the screen - was unique to Ikaruga for a long time (absent a few doujin pc titles that were inspired by Ikaruga, such as rRootage.


For people new to the genre, I think scoring mechanics aren't even on the radar for whether they enjoy the game or not. Instead, it's gameplay mechanics and their feeling of whether they have a good shot at surviving and getting good at the game, without putting in 30+ hours of practice. If they die 10 or 20 times on the first level b/c the screen is full of bullets they have to dodge, people new to the genre are going to be turned off. That's been my experience when showing my games to average gamers at any rate.

What's funny is that I get my balls rocked by 16-bit shooters right after I've played a lot of bullet hells because I'm not used to the speed of the bullets

[Bananamatic]

Same thing applies to Touhou. How many Touhou fans actually stick around before the whole "wacky Japanese" thing wears off?

A lot, because touhou==anime somewhat, people who are into touhou also tend to be into other japanese things
As long as they like japanese things, they'll like Touhou. People who like "wacky things" for a few months and then give up on it(hipsters) don't get any further than watching Lucky Star or Naruto, let alone niche doujin games. They won't even discover what "doujin" means during that time.

Isn't Touhou a PC exclusive and therefore mostly known by PC Gamers? How mainstream is PC gaming? Has it received any media attention?
IDK, I just feel like more people would know what Ikaruga is than Touhou.

Touhou is the #1 copyright tag on Danbooru by a long shot
Touhou even caused a board split on 4chan and /jp/ was created
Touhou even has fairly active western forums

Shit's huge, if anything Ikaruga was the "wacky thing"(hyped by reviewers on top of that) and many people only know about it because the boss theme was in IWTBTG

[RoninBuddha]

I used to think Ikaruga was the pinnacle of the genre, mainly due to media around that time (early 2000's). until i started going to this forum, reading about what everyone one else was playing, discovering games from like CAVE and Raizing... (after years of reading about RSG and finally getting a Saturn where i can play it.. now i really dislike RSG, its a cumbersome game, i can't enjoy it at all.)

imo the pricetag or rarity on these games (well, RSG at least) also gives it a false 'hype'. The collectors, mostly the non-shmup player ones, hold these games up in such high regard, that it has become the face of the bullethell genre, because thats what people see often in "RARE GAEMS/HIDDEN GEMS" lists or any of that sort. Just google a "must-have Sega Saturn/Dreamcast Imports" lists, and these two games will be there.

I do agree that that these days, Touhou is well more known now. I was playing SDOJ during a game night, and some guy mockingly asked me "IS THIS TOUHOUS?"

also the "Hardest Boss ever" video.

[yorgje]

Isn't Touhou a PC exclusive and therefore mostly known by PC Gamers? How mainstream is PC gaming? Has it received any media attention?

I play Touhou on Linux. You can put linux on the wii, which was by far the most mainstream console. Therefore Touhou is mainstream gaming.
(Okay I'm joking)

As for media attention, I dunno because I don't follow mass media, but the homepage for oxford's japanese studies has a pic of a 2hu on it (it's the fourth picture in the banner rotation), so I guess it's an integral part of japanese culture:
http://www.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ea/japanese/index.html

[KAI]

I'm sure they are using it as a generic anime picture.

[MathU]

Many of these friends never graduated into playing other games in the genre, b/c the aspect they appreciate - the polarity switching/save yourself from half the stuff on the screen - was unique to Ikaruga for a long time (absent a few doujin pc titles that were inspired by Ikaruga, such as rRootage.

Ikaruga's bullet polarity thing was not new or unique. It's less fleshed out and harder to do during a panic, but Dimahoo was already doing it a year before Ikaruga came out. I wouldn't be surprised if Hiroshi Iuchi played Dimahoo and thought about what more could be done with the idea.

[Squire Grooktook]

Isn't Touhou a PC exclusive and therefore mostly known by PC Gamers? How mainstream is PC gaming? Has it received any media attention?
IDK, I just feel like more people would know what Ikaruga is than Touhou.

Touhou is the #1 copyright tag on Danbooru by a long shot
Touhou even caused a board split on 4chan and /jp/ was created
Touhou even has fairly active western forums

Shit's huge, if anything Ikaruga was the "wacky thing"(hyped by reviewers on top of that) and many people only know about it because the boss theme was in IWTBTG

Not to mention Touhou is in the guiness book of world records.

I think I can say that I'd estimate 90% of internet gamers know what Touhou is, or have at least heard of it.

[gs68]

A lot of my TH fan friends play the games, but have yet to take interest in any other STG series.

If they ever decide to expand, they're welcome to come to me and to let me tell them about Strikers 1945, Gunbird, The Tale of ALLTYNEX, Eschatos, CAVE, and the like.

[drauch]

Yeah, Touhou is very well known, but is it actually bringing in shmup players for other games? I'm not seeing it, and when I do, it's the... er, questionable members we get on a frequent basis that post a few times, scoff at Fire Shark, then disappear back into the abyss of the internet in search for more doujin.