Which shmups are likely to drop from your top 25?

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:58 pm

Intended to complement MadSteelDarkness' thread. Here is last year's voting:
http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=584

My votes were just plain stupid. I've learned enough since then to abandon AT LEAST half of my top 25, so it is pointless for me to list. How about you?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:37 pm

Heh heh, well, I gave you this evil idea, I may as well begin...

Cotton 2: The more I play it and Boomerang, the more I tend to see a widening rift between them, with Boomerang on top. Cotton 2 deserves much credit for breathing new life into the series, but I tend to think it's been eclipsed as far as the top 25 are concerned.

Armed Police Batrider: I wince as I type this...this game has SO much going for it, so many characters, so many secrets, so much personality...but dang it, a game with such hard-to-see projectiles, and freaking OVERLAPPING graphics in spots, which hide EVERYthing under them, just can't cut it for me. Bad design 101.

Giga Wing 2: I still like the game, don't get me wrong, but oddly enough my experience with GWG, with all its issues, has altered my perspective somewhat...the latter's faster pace and increased variety (you actually have to shoot this time) has sort of spoiled me, heh heh. Not to mention the story/atmosphere...come on, Biblical themes and whatnot are cheesy enough in Treasure's stuff, and now they're in a GIGA WING game?

There are a few others I'm considering nixing, but the above are the most notable...please don't flame too hotly, heh heh.

MadSteelDarkness · Post by **MadSteelDarkness** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:38 am

Good topic prof (and BM, for the suggestion). And thank you for the link. I had totally forgotten exactly what I'd voted for.

Well, I'm afraid these games don't quite make the cut, although all of 'em are good:

Harmful Park
Gun-nac
Super Star Soldier
Super Aleste

The rest are probably staying though. Of course, the home port of Ibara will possibly be coming out before the next round of voting ends (and I do loves me some Raizing goodness), so who knows?

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:37 am

Let's see...

Battle Squadron. I'm afraid it won't make the list next yaer. I still think the Amiga version is a fine game, but it's just not special enough.

Elemental Master. Somehow I'm not as keen on Technosoft as I used to be anymore. Elemental Master might be just the game that makes me feel that there's one TS game too many on my list.

Layer Section/Gunlock/Rayforce/Galactic Attack. The longer I play it the more I find out that I don't like shmups where I have to divide my attention between air based enemies and ground enemies which I have to tackle with different independent weapon systems. Nothing wrong with the game, but my preferences have shifted lately.

Power Strike/Aleste. I really want to keep it on my list, but there are so many great games screaming for my attention, I doubt Power Strike will make it.

Lords/Winds of Thunder. Upon replaying it multiple times I find it a little imbalanced and I think every game in my list should be virtually flawless.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:01 am

Ok, you guys edit your posts and remove the Compile games from your lists right now, or bad things will happen to you...

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:01 pm

These will definitely have to go. (WTF was I thinking?)
gradius galaxies
galaga
defender
sengoku blade
shienryu
geometry wars

These will mostly get bumped as well:
r-type
musha
gaiares
r-type delta
blazing lazers
gradius iii (snes)
fantasy zone
ikaruga

Well, that's MORE than half of my list. As I said, I learned a lot in a year.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:36 pm

Looks like you unlearned a lot in a year

Welcome to BulletMagnet's cautionary tale.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:02 pm

I don't even have a top 25.... regardless, ESP Galuda is steadily building as one of my favorites ever.

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:19 pm

well my change is i'm actually looking to vote, the whole concept before would have been riddled with indecision for me. but now i think i have a firmer grasp on the games i enjoy. looking forward to the next top 25.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:30 pm

Since there would be at least three new entries, at least three would be replaced.

Parodius DA! would probably drop from the list. Still very good, but got to keep a balance with serious and cute em ups. Harmful Park is entering so this has to go.

Zanac would defenitely drop off! It has an even better replacement in the form of it's successor: Zanac Neo!

Chaos Field is another possibility. It faces stiff competition from Trizeal!

SheSaidDutch · Post by **SheSaidDutch** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:44 pm

I would probably only keep the Gradius titles as thats all I mostly play now in regards to shmups.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:32 pm

Accutron wrote:Looks like you unlearned a lot in a year.

It is possible that I've forgotten how great some of these really are, but overall I still love these games. The thing is: you can only pick 25 and during the last year I found out about so many games I didn't know about before (thanks to finding out about this site). It's probably going to take a couple more years of hanging out here before I get a firm grip on my favorites. Then again, I might dramatically change my list every year from here on.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:38 pm

professor ganson wrote:
Accutron wrote:Looks like you unlearned a lot in a year.
It is possible that I've forgotten how great some of these really are, but overall I still love these games. The thing is: you can only pick 25 and during the last year I found out about so many games I didn't know about before (thanks to finding out about this site). It's probably going to take a couple more years of hanging out here before I get a firm grip on my favorites. Then again, I might dramatically change my list every year from here on.

No worries, I'm just bustin' your balls

The games that specifically prompted me to say that are Galaga (an undeniable classic), Ikaruga, and R-Type Delta which blew my mind when I finally found it last month.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:52 pm

Accutron wrote:The games that specifically prompted me to say that are Galaga (an undeniable classic), Ikaruga, and R-Type Delta which blew my mind when I finally found it last month.

Yeah, as it turns out these are exactly the ones I'm most torn about, though in the case of Galaga I just recently played Galaga '88 for the first time and had more fun with it than with Galaga. That's why Galaga is almost definitely getting scratched.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:32 pm

professor ganson wrote:Yeah, as it turns out these are exactly the ones I'm most torn about, though in the case of Galaga I just recently played Galaga '88 for the first time and had more fun with it than with Galaga. That's why Galaga is almost definitely getting scratched.

I just picked up Namco 50th too...never played Galaga '88 before...it's clearly better than the original in every way. I think I prefer Galaga Arrangement to '88 though, even though Arrangement is less polished. I can't believe Galaga Arrangement and Pac-Man Arrangement got left out on Namco 50th. Namco needs to have legal action taken against them for their unfair compilation practices.

The original R-Type is another one that would never leave my top 25. Really, all of the R-Types, sans Final, deserve to be put on a pedestal. I don't think I'd put them all in a list of only 25 games though, if for no other reason than variety. Delta and the original R-Type are both going to be on my list next year for sure.

BallsMahoney · Post by **BallsMahoney** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:05 pm

I've played alot of shooters and have alot of favorites, but one shooter I absolutely hate is Mars Matrix.

Mars Matrix throws bullet patterns that are unfair, come at you WAYYY to fast, and your ship is too fast and the hit box is too big.

I mean, lets compare it to shooters that throw similar amounts of bullets on the screen at once. ESP Ra.De. or DoDonPachi (two of my personal favorites) throw insane amounts but the patterns are fair and move slow enough that you can weave through them. Your ship also has a super fair (read: small) hitbox, and you have two variable, and never too fast or too slow, speeds.

Mars is the complete opposite of that. The ship is too goddamn fast, and the bullets are too fast. Expect to "run into" bullets while trying to dodge.

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Another thing that REALLY pisses me off about Mars Matrix. I've watched the superplays on the DC version of the game, and all he does is abuse safe spots and he knows exactly where to be at the right time. Now, I hate safe-spot shooters already, but what's extra gay about MM is that the only way to possibly know these safespots is BY WATCHING THE SUPER PLAY, because they are super obscure and wierd.

IF you try to play Mars Matrix like any other shooter, you know like by dodging and skill, you will die, alot. It's cheap as hell. The only way to win is to abuse safe spots and the only way to find out where they are is to watch the super play. Hell, your better off trying to memorize the superplayer's every move than to try and actually play the game yourself. Lame.

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CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:14 pm

Although I was pretty cautious in my list from last year, that caution toward newer titles will probably only grow. So many votes go to new games because they are flashy or shiny, not because they have the gameplay of their older kin.

I still firmly believe the best shmups belong to the late 80's/early 90's, with a few exceptions (mostly by Cave, Treasure and G-Rev's Border Down).

I don't remember what 'new' stuff I have on last year's list, but it should probably go.

I'm becoming a old-fashioned traditionalist!!!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:04 pm

BallsMahoney wrote:I've played alot of shooters and have alot of favorites, but one shooter I absolutely hate is Mars Matrix.

Mars Matrix throws bullet patterns that are unfair, come at you WAYYY to fast, and your ship is too fast and the hit box is too big.

I mean, lets compare it to shooters that throw similar amounts of bullets on the screen at once. ESP Ra.De. or DoDonPachi (two of my personal favorites) throw insane amounts but the patterns are fair and move slow enough that you can weave through them. Your ship also has a super fair (read: small) hitbox, and you have two variable, and never too fast or too slow, speeds.

Mars is the complete opposite of that. The ship is too goddamn fast, and the bullets are too fast. Expect to "run into" bullets while trying to dodge.

---------------------------------------

Another thing that REALLY pisses me off about Mars Matrix. I've watched the superplays on the DC version of the game, and all he does is abuse safe spots and he knows exactly where to be at the right time. Now, I hate safe-spot shooters already, but what's extra gay about MM is that the only way to possibly know these safespots is BY WATCHING THE SUPER PLAY, because they are super obscure and wierd.

IF you try to play Mars Matrix like any other shooter, you know like by dodging and skill, you will die, alot. It's cheap as hell. The only way to win is to abuse safe spots and the only way to find out where they are is to watch the super play. Hell, your better off trying to memorize the superplayer's every move than to try and actually play the game yourself. Lame.

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http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?c ... 2&gameid=8
If the ship's too fast, try type 1. MM uses fast and slow bullets, lots of slow bullets. They can be dodged without too much memorization. It helps to have a mosquito plan. How do you "abuse" safe spots? You can figure out this game by yourself, and dodge and use "skill" like I did. It's not as hard as you're making it.

I feel the opposite about Cave games. The small hitbox for everything is annoying, requiring too much estimation when dodging. Since everything is small, it's not that difficult, it just doesn't feel as precise as I'd like. As for speed, I think this is one of the two reasons Cave's games are so popular. Because (in most of their games) the bullets are about as slow as can be found, it has an easy inroad for new players, since you don't have to memorize much of anything until the final stage or two.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:16 am

My problem with the current crop of cave games (to build on what Rob is saying) is that it seems you must abuse a combination of the small hitbox of your ship + the small hitbox of the bullets, meaning sometimes you have to dodge through areas that are smaller than your ship--and sometimes there isn't even any visible space at all. Sorry, while I kinda like the idea of a small hitbox for your ship, this is going too far for me.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:45 am

votes that might drop off my last year´s list:

Darius Gaiden - I still like the style very much, but gameplay is just way too generic to regard it as "elite"

Radiant Silvergun - I´m wondering why I even put it in last year. Probably just a filler, in an attempt to give respect to other people´s opinion about it, but not representing my own point of view.

Psyvariar Revision - the problem with all this buzzing concept is the learning curve which just doesn´t work right. Instead of learning to dodge patterns, you need to learn which amount of bullets to graze to time the invulnerability right, but it´s a matter of pixels sometimes, like in dodging very tight patterns, yet without knowing where the right spot is.

Gradius Gaiden - similar to Darius Gaiden´s reasons

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:34 pm

The titles most likely to drop from my list are:

Dragon Spirit
Moreo Twinbee
Gradius NES
Galaga
Beamrider

My reasons for this is that while I still like Dragon Spirit quite a bit, there are some games I like better. I like Gradius NES quite a bit, but the other versions of the game are better. Galaga is an excellent game, but with some many other good games around, it will probably fall down a bit. Beamrider is great, but I don't know if it's one of my top games.

Thunder Force III and IV would probably go up a bit, some more capcom shooters would probably be added, Truxton would most likely be added, and I think games like Gunsmoke NES and Gunsmoke Arcade should be counted as seperate voices since the versions are so different from each other.

BallsMahoney · Post by **BallsMahoney** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:12 pm

I wonder if I am alone in my hatred for Mars Matrix?

Oh well...

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:48 am

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject:

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I wonder if I am alone in my hatred for Mars Matrix?

Oh well...

You're not

The Giga Wing games I love, but there is just something about MM that makes me dislike it intensely.

SheSaidDutch · Post by **SheSaidDutch** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:15 pm

My first post was a little harsh.

Now that I've had some time to think

I'll probably just get rid of afew arcade ports(only keep the more accurate ports) and porbably get rid/add afew console exclusives.

I cant find the thread so I'm going by memory

Gradius 1&2 [NES]
Gyruss [NES]
Zanac [NES]