NESRGB board available now

[kamiboy]

Diagonal jailbars via SNES S-Video on a flatscreen is caused by subpar cable quality. Ditch the noname ones you got for a song on ebay and buy the official kind and watch it go away. I had the same problem once upon a time.

[Hamburglar]

Diagonal jailbars via SNES S-Video on a flatscreen is caused by subpar cable quality. Ditch the noname ones you got for a song on ebay and buy the official kind and watch it go away. I had the same problem once upon a time.

1) I am using the same s-video cable as I am with my s-video modded Master System. There's no diagonal jailbars on the Master System.

2) The exact same diagonal jailbars were there using the NESRGB via RGB when using composite for sync.

It can't be the cables.

[markfrizb]

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/4870/5ve8.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img22/8910/7nt5.jpg

Tim,
I want to suggest a slight change in the top loader adapter pcb.
The adapter sits just over the CPU. If the
CPU dies, it'll be a BEAR to remove and replace. And the header pins sit almost on top of the CPU pins in that someone could unknowingly bridge those pins to the CPU pins. Why not move the headers so the CPU isn't covered? And maybe a notch so the transistor wouldn't have to be stressed and bent?

Just my observations. I don't know if the adapter pcb is precisely laid out this way for a different reason.

[ApolloBoy]

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/4870/5ve8.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img22/8910/7nt5.jpg

Tim,
I want to suggest a slight change in the top loader adapter pcb.
The adapter sits just over the CPU. If the
CPU dies, it'll be a BEAR to remove and replace. And the header pins sit almost on top of the CPU pins in that someone could unknowingly bridge those pins to the CPU pins. Why not move the headers so the CPU isn't covered? And maybe a notch so the transistor wouldn't have to be stressed and bent?

Just my observations. I don't know if the adapter pcb is precisely laid out this way for a different reason.

Couldn't you just socket the adapter board and avoid those problems? Pretty sure the case would still fit if you did so.

[markfrizb]

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/4870/5ve8.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img22/8910/7nt5.jpg

Tim,
I want to suggest a slight change in the top loader adapter pcb.
The adapter sits just over the CPU. If the
CPU dies, it'll be a BEAR to remove and replace. And the header pins sit almost on top of the CPU pins in that someone could unknowingly bridge those pins to the CPU pins. Why not move the headers so the CPU isn't covered? And maybe a notch so the transistor wouldn't have to be stressed and bent?

Just my observations. I don't know if the adapter pcb is precisely laid out this way for a different reason.

Couldn't you just socket the adapter board and avoid those problems? Pretty sure the case would still fit if you did so.

There isn't a lot of extra clearance and having 2 sets of sockets doesn't exude confidence in connections. A change in the adapter pcb seems logical. This isn't so much for me as I am well experienced in solder/desoldering. But there are a lot of people who are not experienced that might benefit from this.

Also... If someone puts this all together and sets the adapter board too high and now your console case won't close, then it's hell to pay to unsolder and lower it to fit

[cr4zymanz0r]

4.) NESRGB sound circuit with no Famicom cart audio mixing wired up on HDTV+XRGB3+decent sound bar: No buzz at all. Virtually perfect.
5.) NESRGB sound circuit with a low quality shielded wire going directly from the sound output pin on the Famicom cart connector to the resistors at the mixing point outlined previously on the NESRGB board sound circuit: Much improved over my original method, but there is still some buzzing when using NES carts (worked fine with my Akumajo Densetsu Famicom cart though). I could probably live with it but now curiosity has had me order a good single conductor shielded wire to see if that completely fixes things.

To clarify, for point 4, by "no Famicom cart audio mixing" do you mean the only audio-related connections made to the NESRGB are from CPU pins 1 and 2? This is with both Famicom and NES carts?

For point 5, could the cause of the buzzing with NES carts be due to the relevant wire running to the NESRGB not being connected to anything and so it might be acting as an antenna of sorts? With Akumajo Densetsu in the mix, the wire would be (eventually) connected to the audio hadware in the cartridge at Famicom cartridge pin 46. How do Famicom carts without expanded audio (in particular, ones which directly connect pins 45 and 46) sound? If you've left pin 45 floating I suspect it would have similar buzzing as a NES cart.

Yes, #4 means only CPU pins 1 and 2 were tapped for audio. There were no additional connections to mix in Famicom cart audio. There was no buzz and everything sounded crisp on both NES and Famicom carts (but games like Akumajo Densetsu had missing audio due to the cart audio not being wired up of course)

Your antenna theory about #5 does sound logical. I hadn't got around to testing a Famicom cart with no extended audio to see how it behaves and unfortunately I won't be able to for another day or 2. I believe all Famicom carts without additional audio bridge pins 45 and 46 (it was required to complete the audio ciruit on Famicom systems I believe). I'll try a couple of regular Famicom carts when I get the chance and see if it produces the same results as a NES cart. Famicom pin 45 is floating on my setup, so I'd say there's a decent chance regular Famicom carts might have some buzzing too.

If the issue does indeed end up being due to the wire acting as an antenna when left floating, is there an easy way to solve that? Is there a particular way I could connect the wire to ground with a specific value resistor or capacitor (or other component) that would negate the antenna properties but not change/distort the audio when a Famicom cart with additional audio is in the Famicom cart slot?

I tried my toaster even using headphones and I heard no buzzing using the stock RCA jack on the right side of the console. I guess it's all luck? I am sensitive to buzzing, too (my toaster that was modded with an RGB PPU had buzzing until someone fixed it).

It was harder for me to hear the buzzing with regular headphones connected to the stock RCA jack, but when using headphones with the built in volume knob for me to increase the volume it was very apparent then (headphones with no built-in volume knob directly connected was kinda quiet).

I wouldn't be surprised if the "buzzing" orginates from a cheapo Powersupply. Or it is 50/60hz buzzing from your mains.

I tried with both the original NES AC power supply and a good quality 9V DC power supply and had the same results. As for 60hz buzzing, is that considered the same as a ground loop? If it is, (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't a ground loop only (potentially) happen once one grounded device is connected to another grounded device? The NES power supply has no ground pin, and I get the buzzing even with headphones directly connected to the NES (and the NES not connected to any other devices for audio or video), so I would think that would rule out buzzing do to power related influences.

[adimifus]

Diagonal jailbars via SNES S-Video on a flatscreen is caused by subpar cable quality. Ditch the noname ones you got for a song on ebay and buy the official kind and watch it go away. I had the same problem once upon a time.

While my s-video cables aren't top of the line, they are a far cry from sub-par. I've never bought cheap cables from eBay, as image quality means a lot to me. That being said, I do plan on making an RGB cable for my NES whenever the 8 pin cable I ordered comes in. S-video is just temporary until that happens.

Regardless, I've used this cable with a number of other systems and devices with no problems whatsoever. I doubt its to blame.

[leonk]

I finally started putting one together and testing power draw on a top loader as well as scoping it out with a thermal camera.
http://youtu.be/zqXltM-mH6U

I'd say we are well in the clear for using the factory 7805 to power everything on the top loader.
If I find the front loader is different i'll post that vid too.

As Tim already suggested, there are 2 sources of heat from the 7805:

- High input voltage
- more current draw in the circuit

You have shown that even with a PowerPak, the 7805 barely hits 50% of rated capacity when using the NESRGB. Even so, can we not compensate for the extra heat generated by the extra 120mA by using a better power supply? Rather than using the standard 9V AC transformer, can we not use a switching PS that is rated closer to 5V? Why is the input power 9V if the first thing the NES does is drop it to 5V??

[kamiboy]

Diagonal jailbars via SNES S-Video on a flatscreen is caused by subpar cable quality. Ditch the noname ones you got for a song on ebay and buy the official kind and watch it go away. I had the same problem once upon a time.

While my s-video cables aren't top of the line, they are a far cry from sub-par. I've never bought cheap cables from eBay, as image quality means a lot to me. That being said, I do plan on making an RGB cable for my NES whenever the 8 pin cable I ordered comes in. S-video is just temporary until that happens.

Regardless, I've used this cable with a number of other systems and devices with no problems whatsoever. I doubt its to blame.

So it is just a regular s-video to s-video cable, then. My subpar cable was a SNES s-video cable and it was giving me the exact artefact described until I swapped it for a first party replacement. I thought it might have been the same thing.

[ApolloBoy]

Rather than using the standard 9V AC transformer, can we not use a switching PS that is rated closer to 5V? Why is the input power 9V if the first thing the NES does is drop it to 5V??

The lowest voltage you can send to the 7805 without problems is around 7-7.5V, any lower than that and the system won't function properly. Using a PSU that outputs 5V or close to it won't work at all. Also remember that the NES has a bridge rectifier which causes the input voltage to drop considerably (if you're using DC that is) before it goes into the 7805.

[markfrizb]

I finally started putting one together and testing power draw on a top loader as well as scoping it out with a thermal camera.
http://youtu.be/zqXltM-mH6U

I'd say we are well in the clear for using the factory 7805 to power everything on the top loader.
If I find the front loader is different i'll post that vid too.

As Tim already suggested, there are 2 sources of heat from the 7805:

- High input voltage
- more current draw in the circuit

You have shown that even with a PowerPak, the 7805 barely hits 50% of rated capacity when using the NESRGB. Even so, can we not compensate for the extra heat generated by the extra 120mA by using a better power supply? Rather than using the standard 9V AC transformer, can we not use a switching PS that is rated closer to 5V? Why is the input power 9V if the first thing the NES does is drop it to 5V??

The 9volts AC power supply goes through a bridge rectifier to be converted to DC voltage then filtered with a big capacitor. I haven't measured the input to the 5v regulate but if the bridge is a full wave, then the voltage to the 5v reg should be around 15-18 volts DC (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sitting in front of datasheets but I think the 7805 can take up to 24v as input. Anyways, most aftermarket power supplies for the NES output DC voltage anyways (10-12v) and DC voltage just passes through the bridge as-is. Most regulators need some % of over voltage to regulate properly. So you could easily use a 12DC power supply to power the console. 1 amp or greater but anything over 1.5amp is wasting $.

[adimifus]

So it is just a regular s-video to s-video cable, then. My subpar cable was a SNES s-video cable and it was giving me the exact artefact described until I swapped it for a first party replacement. I thought it might have been the same thing.

Yeah its just a regular s-video cable, with the mini DIN on both ends.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I HAD some cheap third party SNES/N64/GCN s-video cables that had similar diagonal artifacts. The difference is those were extremely prevelant and the interference with the NESRGB is barely noticeable. I honestly don't even mind it that much. I only bring it up because its something that could possibly be improved upon for the next revision.

[ApolloBoy]

I haven't measured the input to the 5v regulate but if the bridge is a full wave, then the voltage to the 5v reg should be around 15-18 volts DC (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sitting in front of datasheets but I think the 7805 can take up to 24v as input.

I don't think it's around that high on the input, it's more like 11.5-12V. And yes, you can feed 24V into a 7805 but not without having a huge heat sink bolted to it.

[leonk]

I got the PCB today, and proceeded to install it in my USA NES Top loader. While fresh in my mind, here are some things I noticed that will hopefully help others and drive improvements in the next version:

1) The installation instructions could be better. Some gotcha's that I ran into:

- there are multiple GND points marked on PCB, but what are they for? Just to be safe, I connected them all to ground.
- can the pinout PDF on the site be rotated 90 degrees for better viewing during install?
- there are no instructions on how to install the top loader adapter - I guessed (NESRGB is socketed into adapter - adapter is soldered into NES)
- as already mentioned, the solder side of the top loader adapter sits on top of the CPU and pins can touch. I trimmed them and used electrical tape on CPU just in case
- CPU pin 1 & 2 could be identified in docs - I knew what they were, some might not

2) I only tried S-Video for now. I'm waiting for my SNES RGB cable to come in. For now, I share the same SVideo cable between NES and SNES on my 20" Sony PVM. The image quality is AMAZING! I do not see any of the issues reported here with SVideo on PVM. It's perfectly clean and sharp! It's so amazing, I can't imagine RGB being even better!!!

If anything, I must say, I do notice all the tiny game glitches more now than ever before (e.g. in SMB3, when one moves to the right, the screen redraw on the right edge is not fluid, it's almost jittery.. but that's the way it's always been!)

3) Audio coming out of the NESRGB amp is MUCH louder and crisper than regular NES. It's REALLY amplified.. needed to turn down the volume on the PVM. AWESOME!

Now, for some install porn:

[mickcris]

I got the PCB today, and proceeded to install it in my USA NES Top loader. While fresh in my mind, here are some things I noticed that will hopefully help others and drive improvements in the next version:

1) The installation instructions could be better. Some gotcha's that I ran into:

- there are multiple GND points marked on PCB, but what are they for? Just to be safe, I connected them all to ground.
- can the pinout PDF on the site be rotated 90 degrees for better viewing during install?
- there are no instructions on how to install the top loader adapter - I guessed (NESRGB is socketed into adapter - adapter is soldered into NES)
- as already mentioned, the solder side of the top loader adapter sits on top of the CPU and pins can touch. I trimmed them and used electrical tape on CPU just in case
- CPU pin 1 & 2 could be identified in docs - I knew what they were, some might not

2) I only tried S-Video for now. I'm waiting for my SNES RGB cable to come in. For now, I share the same SVideo cable between NES and SNES on my 20" Sony PVM. The image quality is AMAZING! I do not see any of the issues reported here with SVideo on PVM. It's perfectly clean and sharp! It's so amazing, I can't imagine RGB being even better!!!

If anything, I must say, I do notice all the tiny game glitches more now than ever before (e.g. in SMB3, when one moves to the right, the screen redraw on the right edge is not fluid, it's almost jittery.. but that's the way it's always been!)

3) Audio coming out of the NESRGB amp is MUCH louder and crisper than regular NES. It's REALLY amplified.. needed to turn down the volume on the PVM. AWESOME!

Have you put the top shell back on to verify it still fits with board installed?

[leonk]

Yes, system fully assembled. All fits well. I love being to switch between composite, Svideo or rgb by just changing the cable used. The Nintendo multi AV port is the only way to go.

Tim, have you considered selling kits that only have PCB + headers? I got a bag of parts that I didn't use that probably cost 10-15$.

[game-tech.us]

- there are multiple GND points marked on PCB, but what are they for? Just to be safe, I connected them all to ground.
- can the pinout PDF on the site be rotated 90 degrees for better viewing during install?
- there are no instructions on how to install the top loader adapter - I guessed (NESRGB is socketed into adapter - adapter is soldered into NES)
- as already mentioned, the solder side of the top loader adapter sits on top of the CPU and pins can touch. I trimmed them and used electrical tape on CPU just in case
- CPU pin 1 & 2 could be identified in docs - I knew what they were, some might not

Ground is ground and they should all already be connected, but they are for the external regulator and the video output connectors.
I was able to rotate image within the pdf viewer, but I also just printed it off since i'll be doing so many.
I would put sockets on the mobo always so the adapter and rgb board can be pulled off to get to the cpu etc. The ppu and adapter were soldered directly to the rgb board. This will also keep it up off the cpu. I do however think square headers should not be supplied, just two pairs of round headers to keep confusion down and also the round ones won't need trimmed off.
Identifying pins by number should be as basic as knowing how to solder, but I could see how someone might not know this and still try to instal the kit...

Mickcris, I have verified it fits fine in the us top loader with the av fami adapter board.

[mickcris]

- there are multiple GND points marked on PCB, but what are they for? Just to be safe, I connected them all to ground.
- can the pinout PDF on the site be rotated 90 degrees for better viewing during install?
- there are no instructions on how to install the top loader adapter - I guessed (NESRGB is socketed into adapter - adapter is soldered into NES)
- as already mentioned, the solder side of the top loader adapter sits on top of the CPU and pins can touch. I trimmed them and used electrical tape on CPU just in case
- CPU pin 1 & 2 could be identified in docs - I knew what they were, some might not

Ground is ground and they should all already be connected, but they are for the external regulator and the video output connectors.
I was able to rotate image within the pdf viewer, but I also just printed it off since i'll be doing so many.
I would put sockets on the mobo always so the adapter and rgb board can be pulled off to get to the cpu etc. The ppu and adapter were soldered directly to the rgb board. This will also keep it up off the cpu. I do however think square headers should not be supplied, just two pairs of round headers to keep confusion down and also the round ones won't need trimmed off.
Identifying pins by number should be as basic as knowing how to solder, but I could see how someone might not know this and still try to instal the kit...

Mickcris, I have verified it fits fine in the us top loader with the av fami adapter board.

Cool. Just wondering cause I saw in your video that you thought it might have an issue with the cart slot.

[leonk]

Like I said, I didn't run into any issues. My comments are from the point of view of a person who might be doing this kind of stuff for the first time. As a seasoned electronics engineer whose been working with this sort of stuff for almost 15 years, I was able to fill the gaps based on experience.

Initially, I was thinking of socketing the adapter but decided against it for these reasons:

1) I prefer to solder. Gives a stronger connection that would last for years. I can always desolder what I put together with ease. I can always desolder the 40 pins in less than a minute.

2) I was not keen about the way the pcb looked like with the adapter socketed. This method has too much flex to it. Soldered adapters rest on the CPU and use the CPU for extra support. In addition, there is a screw in the top shelf that seemed to hit the pcb if adapter was socketed. That was not the case the other way around.

At the end of the day, it's a personal choice. Either will work just fine. Just make sure to trim feet where need be and think a few steps ahead. If you do things in the wrong order, this product is not forgiving.

[leonk]

In case anyone missed it, in the 2nd to last pic above, the metallic box under the shield is NOT the standard RF adapter from the top loader. It's a multiAV port from a GameCube. Note the metallic shield. All pins are connected (except for pin 10 - 5V) but it can be for those using real SCART TVs and need to signal to the TV to switch to 4x3 mode.

[bdlou]

In case anyone missed it, in the 2nd to last pic above, the metallic box under the shield is NOT the standard RF adapter from the top loader. It's a multiAV port from a GameCube. Note the metallic shield. All pins are connected (except for pin 10 - 5V) but it can be for those using real SCART TVs and need to signal to the TV to switch to 4x3 mode.

I'd love more details on this. I have one of those French toaster NES' (yep, right as I typed it I realized what I was saying there) and was considering trying to reuse the Multi AV style jack there, but that doesn't seem like the right way to go. French NES for those not familiar: http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index ... pic=6749.0 Your method is much more up my alley.

Also, first post! I've been lurking on this thread for weeks now. Time to finally get in on the action!

[ApolloBoy]

I'd love more details on this.

He posted about it a few pages back.

BTW Leon, how did you cut into the motherboard to make space for the multiout pins?

[lettuce]

So what sort of video connection are most of you guys using for this, tried to see if i could find MegaDrive 2 type connection but couldnt find any anywhere

[leonk]

I'd love more details on this.

He posted about it a few pages back.

BTW Leon, how did you cut into the motherboard to make space for the multiout pins?

I drilled a starter hole, and then used a very fine jeweller copping saw. It cut through the PCB very easily. Only thing lost was some of the ground plain, no big deal.

[ApolloBoy]

So what sort of video connection are most of you guys using for this, tried to see if i could find MegaDrive 2 type connection but couldnt find any anywhere

They're on eBay, just search "9 pin DIN" and you'll find them. Anyway, when I get one I'll be installing it in my AV Famicom which already has the Nintendo multiout. I might get a second one for my front loader, which I've already added a Nintendo multiout to.

[ccovell]

Speaking of DIN connectors and stuff, here's a recommended pin connection for the 8-pin DIN that's already in the TWIN Famicom. For those that don't want to desolder the DIN connector, you can keep it in there, cut board traces, and use a Neo-Geo RGB cable to connect it to your display:

Code: Select all

Bottom of Twin Famicom RF DIN connector:

3        2        1
o        o        o
    5         4
    o         o
7        8        6
o        o        o

Pins 5 and 8 are already marked on the PCB.

Pin connection instructions:
1 - to AUD
2 - to GND
5 - Cut PCB trace, then wire to Green
6 - Cut multiple traces, then wire to Red
7 - Cut, then to Sync
8 - Cut, then to Blue

Also, for passing the enhanced/original video through the standard RCA jack, you can wire up the palette/cutoff switch like this:

Code: Select all

Switch for Palette Type / Video passthrough
      __
  1--|  |--V
  2--|  |--V
GND--|  |----> to Video Out
     |  |
  3--|  |--V
  x--|  |--PPUV
      --

[ApolloBoy]

Isn't the DIN jack on the Twin Fami missing some of the pins though?

[ccovell]

I'm looking at 3 Twin Famicoms (1 Turbo, 2 old-model) right now and they all have an 8-pin DIN.

[ApolloBoy]

I'm looking at 3 Twin Famicoms (1 Turbo, 2 old-model) right now and they all have an 8-pin DIN.

Huh, I seem to recall some guy on another forum having to switch out the DIN jack on his Twin because it was missing some pins despite having all eight holes.

[bdlou]

I'd love more details on this.

He posted about it a few pages back.

BTW Leon, how did you cut into the motherboard to make space for the multiout pins?

Oh good lord. I saw that post and didn't even put two and two together. I've been fascinated by all the info, but I'm clearly not absorbing it. Great stuff!