NESRGB board available now

[evil_ash_xero]

Hmm..on the first page it's supposed to be "Normal" "Improved" and "Garish". Garish being the Playchoice Palette and "Improved" being from FCEUltra.

[bryan_c]

Also, I get occasional glitch horizontal lines that only appear for a brief moment, maybe one frame. They're not horribly frequent, maybe once or twice a minute, and its maybe one or two lines across the screen.

If this is what I think it is, it's not a problem with the NESRGB. Discussion on NesDev here - there are links to videos of the glitch in the first post, plus screen captures later on, and a link to this YouTube video on a later page that reproduces the glitch more consistently.

If I follow the discussion (I probably don't ) apparantly it has something to do with the clock alignment between the PPU and CPU, and (some early) games that do certain things during NMI.

Maybe it's possible that the NESRGB might influence the timing required to reproduce the glitch (I don't understand the issue well enough to say), but I suspect you're paying more attention to the visuals after installing the NESRGB (because why wouldn't you? It looks great! ) and are just now noticing something that was always there. I know I only started noticing the horizontal line glitch after using RGB for my other consoles for the first time (in the last couple years), then going back to play some Super Mario Bros. on my composite NES. At first I was afraid my NES was on its last legs, but then found the linked NesDev discussion.

I somehow managed to squeeze yet another solder pad + resistor into the layout. Now there's A(20k), B(12k), CA(100k), and EA(20k) inputs to the mixer for the next version.

Great, can't wait! I missed out during the original sale window due to PayPal issues on my end. Nice to know I'll have a slightly easier time with the audio side of things with a later revision, assuming I don't miss out on that too...

Though if using CA would result in better sound quality than EA, I wonder if it would be possible for new PowerPak firmware to output louder Famicom audio? This is mostly a theoretical concern for me as I don't actually have a PowerPak - at the time I added Famicom audio support to my NES I saw multiple devices expecting the 47k mod, so used that on the NES end plus a lower-than-usual resistor in my Famicom-to-NES adaptor, thinking it'd be more future-proof that way... So, assuming I follow, using EA would let me not touch my adaptor again, but if I used an even lower (20k?) resistor in my adaptor I could use CA. Hmm...

[Hamburglar]

Hmm..on the first page it's supposed to be "Normal" "Improved" and "Garish". Garish being the Playchoice Palette and "Improved" being from FCEUltra.

Possible. It's hard to tell what's what because all 3 give me the "purple sky" in 4-1 of Super Mario Bros 2 US.

and a link to this YouTube video on a later page that reproduces the glitch more consistently.

The one I randomly get in SMB 1 is very similar to the one in that Youtube vid but it's nowhere near as long in width.

[adimifus]

If this is what I think it is, it's not a problem with the NESRGB. Discussion on NesDev here - there are links to videos of the glitch in the first post, plus screen captures later on, and a link to this YouTube video on a later page that reproduces the glitch more consistently.

If I follow the discussion (I probably don't ) apparantly it has something to do with the clock alignment between the PPU and CPU, and (some early) games that do certain things during NMI.

Maybe it's possible that the NESRGB might influence the timing required to reproduce the glitch (I don't understand the issue well enough to say), but I suspect you're paying more attention to the visuals after installing the NESRGB (because why wouldn't you? It looks great! ) and are just now noticing something that was always there. I know I only started noticing the horizontal line glitch after using RGB for my other consoles for the first time (in the last couple years), then going back to play some Super Mario Bros. on my composite NES. At first I was afraid my NES was on its last legs, but then found the linked NesDev discussion.

Interesting. That video shows exactly what I was talking about. You're probably right regarding me paying more attention to the details now that it looks so much better. It won't bother me so much now knowing its a flaw in the NES and not the NESRGB.

[antron]

My Samsung LCD circa 2007 does crazy stuff with my stock NES over composite. Some sprite situations cause the TV to filter differently on that horizontal line, and cause a ghost-like pattern. I can't wait to see what the NESRGB does.

[parodius]

Got my nesrgb board in today and got straight to work. It's a beautiful piece of engineering by viletim. Picture looks amazing on my pvm. I didn't get the onboard sound circuit to work so I tapped the usual spot for audio on nes top loader a/v mods. I found a 40pin socket that had a tighter grip than the supplied SIP sockets so I opted to use the SIP sockets for the PPU. The grip is strong enough where I don't need to worry about the nesrgb board popping off during transit. Absolutely no hot glue was used during assembly.

I can confirm that is enough room inside an nes top loader and av famicom where you can safely install a socket for the PPU. The spot where I mounted the regulator also doesn't interfere with the top shell. The regulator can be mounted in the same spot for the av famicom since both systems have the same exact footprint/bottom shell.

Well I installed my NESRGB board in my AV fami yesterday, and I don't know if it's because I soldered them badly but I can't seem to make the board sit properly in the SIP socket.
I'm not sure there's even proper connection between the socket and the board, anyway I can't get a picture out of my setup.
Will try again today, and maybe replace the SIP socket by a ZIF one I have...

[ApolloBoy]

I'd recommend a DIP socket instead, a ZIF socket seems like overkill for something like this.

[parodius]

Indeed I meant DIP socket not ZIF.

[cr4zymanz0r]

I did some more in depth sound testing and ran into an issue. My previous method for mixing in Famicom cart audio on the NES frontloader introduces noise into the NESRGB's sound circuit. I couldn't hear it too well on standard TV speakers at a modest volume, but I tried it on my living room setup (HDTV, XRGB-3, sound bar) and there was a noticeable amount of buzzing. I confirmed the buzzing was present straight out of the NES before going into any other equipment too. It's most noticeable when the game is quiet (such as when a game is paused). The buzzing sounds slightly different depending on what's on screen too (bright colorful scenes cause more buzzing, while darker scenes have less). This was when I was just using a NES cart too, no Famicom cart.

I tried troubleshooting the issue some with little success:
1.) I tried moving the resistors directly to the mixing point on the NESRGB sound circuit and this seemingly changed nothing.
2.) I ran wire straight from the Famicom cart connector audio out pin straight to resistors at the mixing point on the sound circuit and I didn't notice any improvement
3.) Same as step 2, but I used a thicker wire. Still no change.
4.) Same as step 2 and 3, but I used some scrap cheapo shielded wire. This actually helped some. The buzzing was still present but reduced. It's "tolerable" now, meaning I would be able to play without it driving me bonkers. However, it's still not as good as the NESRGB sound circuit without the Famicom audio mixing connected. Without Famicom cart audio mixing I can't hear any discernible buzzing on the NESRGB sound circuit unless I turn up the volume obscenely loud and have the game paused.

I guess I need to find some good quality shielded cable with the braided copper shielding in a cable that isn't too thick and unwieldy to use in the NES. If anyone knows of a good place to buy some with just 1 conductor (wire) inside of it I'd be glad to know.

[viletim]

cr4zymanz0r,

That's unfortunate. It's no good when the data buses get in the mix.

Have you tried a thick ground wire between the Famicom socket and the NESRGB board?

[viletim]

So Tim, is the next NESRGB be flexible enough for all the different "sound" environments automatically? Or will you have to change jumper settings (via external switch?) for powerpak in X-console or Y-cartridge in any of the consoles? All in mono I assume....
And I'm ok with a mono output (I know many want stereo). I'm a big believer in plug and play no matter which console and cartridge combination is used (including the N8 and powerpak).
Is this the goal for next batch?

I will try to make it compatible with everything but guarantee nothing. It's possible that it may not work very well due to noise or other problems. The promary function of the board is to fix the video. The audio is a bonus.

It would/will be nice to get accurate instructions on all the different mods for the different consoles.

Indeed it would. I'll work on it, but documentation isn't my greatest strength...

And do you have a time frame when next batch will be ready for sale?

Mid December maybe.

I designed a N64 RGB board early this year. 15 kHz only, support PAL/NTSC RGB cables, fairly cheap, and works better than my old design from '07. I just need to push the button to make lots of them.

Hi Viletim - I'd definitely buy one of these as I'm sure a heck of a lot of people would. Are you intending on bringing this out any time soon?

January.

adimifus and Hamburglar, are you both connecting the NES/Famicom to an XRGB when you see the diagonal interference?

[cr4zymanz0r]

cr4zymanz0r,

That's unfortunate. It's no good when the data buses get in the mix.

Have you tried a thick ground wire between the Famicom socket and the NESRGB board?

A thick ground wire from the Famicom adapter to the NESRGB board might help? I haven't tried that yet. I'm going to be too busy to mess with it anymore until later this week, and hopefully the better shielded wiring I just ordered will be here by then.

I did however find that with my current cheapo shielded wire that a Famicom game with the extra audio (Akumajo Densetsu) doesn't have any audio buzz at all from what I can hear. It's weird that's fine but a NES cart isn't. I haven't tried a Famicom cart without extra audio yet. I'll tinker more later this week when I have time.

[game-tech.us]

I finally started putting one together and testing power draw on a top loader as well as scoping it out with a thermal camera.
http://youtu.be/zqXltM-mH6U

I'd say we are well in the clear for using the factory 7805 to power everything on the top loader.
If I find the front loader is different i'll post that vid too.

[BitFaced]

January.

Hate to veer off-topic again, but I assume this is one that works with all N64s ever?

[markfrizb]

I finally started putting one together and testing power draw on a top loader as well as scoping it out with a thermal camera.
http://youtu.be/zqXltM-mH6U

I'd say we are well in the clear for using the factory 7805 to power everything on the top loader.
If I find the front loader is different i'll post that vid too.

Does that include the powerpak?
Doesn't the powerpak require more power than a normal cart?

[ApolloBoy]

I finally started putting one together and testing power draw on a top loader as well as scoping it out with a thermal camera.
http://youtu.be/zqXltM-mH6U

I'd say we are well in the clear for using the factory 7805 to power everything on the top loader.
If I find the front loader is different i'll post that vid too.

Does that include the powerpak?
Doesn't the powerpak require more power than a normal cart?

He did extensive testing with it in the video, so yes that would include the PowerPak.

[frsj8112]

Hi guys!

I'm been trying to get my NESRGB + AV-Famicom working but I still just get a black screen when starting any of my official carts.

However I am able to boot the NESRGB + AV-Famicom with my NES Powerpak!
Some games work, some doesn't start at all, some end up with graphical glitches.

See video here: http://youtu.be/Y6SzsDE2yRg

What can be wrong?
Is it some connection error between PPU and CPU?

When running the board with a PPU instead of the NESRGB it works perfectly with the official games as well.

[Hamburglar]

I did some more in depth sound testing and ran into an issue. My previous method for mixing in Famicom cart audio on the NES frontloader introduces noise into the NESRGB's sound circuit. I couldn't hear it too well on standard TV speakers at a modest volume, but I tried it on my living room setup (HDTV, XRGB-3, sound bar) and there was a noticeable amount of buzzing. I confirmed the buzzing was present straight out of the NES before going into any other equipment too. It's most noticeable when the game is quiet (such as when a game is paused). The buzzing sounds slightly different depending on what's on screen too (bright colorful scenes cause more buzzing, while darker scenes have less). This was when I was just using a NES cart too, no Famicom cart.

I tried troubleshooting the issue some with little success:
1.) I tried moving the resistors directly to the mixing point on the NESRGB sound circuit and this seemingly changed nothing.
2.) I ran wire straight from the Famicom cart connector audio out pin straight to resistors at the mixing point on the sound circuit and I didn't notice any improvement
3.) Same as step 2, but I used a thicker wire. Still no change.
4.) Same as step 2 and 3, but I used some scrap cheapo shielded wire. This actually helped some. The buzzing was still present but reduced. It's "tolerable" now, meaning I would be able to play without it driving me bonkers. However, it's still not as good as the NESRGB sound circuit without the Famicom audio mixing connected. Without Famicom cart audio mixing I can't hear any discernible buzzing on the NESRGB sound circuit unless I turn up the volume obscenely loud and have the game paused.

I guess I need to find some good quality shielded cable with the braided copper shielding in a cable that isn't too thick and unwieldy to use in the NES. If anyone knows of a good place to buy some with just 1 conductor (wire) inside of it I'd be glad to know.

I don't know if I read you right but did you try not hooking the audio up to your NESRGB? I wired up my NESRGB but completely skipped the audio wiring instructions and I just use the audio on present on a stock toaster. Expanded audio plays just fine. Unless there's a specific reason you need it to go through the NESRGB first?

[ApolloBoy]

That's what I plan to do as well, why bother wiring up the audio to the NESRGB when the stock audio circuit does the job just fine?

[leonk]

That's what I plan to do as well, why bother wiring up the audio to the NESRGB when the stock audio circuit does the job just fine?

Because it doesn't. As Tim said a few posts ago "The only reason I put an audio circuit on the NESRGB board is because the one in the NES/Famicom isn't so great. If I make the same mistakes as the original circuit it defeats the purpose."

There's most discussion a few pages back on how noise/distortion with high volume isn't there on NESRGB but is on original circuit.

I would imagine that Tim's 2013 audio amp design should be better than a 1985 one.

[adimifus]

adimifus and Hamburglar, are you both connecting the NES/Famicom to an XRGB when you see the diagonal interference?

No, I have it hooked directly up to a Sony Trinitron flat screen CRT via s-video. Its more noticeable in video captures than on the TV itself, but I can still see it.
Also, I think I commented that the diagonal lines were moving. They're not-- they're static.

Is there any way to get at the audio from your built in amp before it gets mixed together? (For "stereo" output)

[Hamburglar]

That's what I plan to do as well, why bother wiring up the audio to the NESRGB when the stock audio circuit does the job just fine?

Because it doesn't. As Tim said a few posts ago "The only reason I put an audio circuit on the NESRGB board is because the one in the NES/Famicom isn't so great. If I make the same mistakes as the original circuit it defeats the purpose."

There's most discussion a few pages back on how noise/distortion with high volume isn't there on NESRGB but is on original circuit.

I would imagine that Tim's 2013 audio amp design should be better than a 1985 one.

I guess the issue is that I never heard distortion or noise on my toaster over the default RCA jack. Plus with adding using the NESRGB for audio, it becomes a confusing mess as to how to do the expanded audio mod or the stereo audio mod. If I were someone who heard the hum or noise I'd definitely consider doing it, though.

The only times I ever heard audio hum was when using a cheap scart cable or cheap switch.

adimifus and Hamburglar, are you both connecting the NES/Famicom to an XRGB when you see the diagonal interference?

Here's what's interesting. If I use composite video for sync, I get the diagonal interference even when using the XRGB Mini. If I use csync instead, no interference.

With s-video, I get the horizontal interference when not using the XRGB Mini (meaning straight to my plasma TV) but if I do s-video over the XRGB Mini, the diagonal interference goes away.

Odd, right?

[bobrocks95]

Here's what's interesting. If I use composite video for sync, I get the diagonal interference even when using the XRGB Mini. If I use csync instead, no interference.

With s-video, I get the horizontal interference when not using the XRGB Mini (meaning straight to my plasma TV) but if I do s-video over the XRGB Mini, the diagonal interference goes away.

Odd, right?

Is comb filtering of some kind applied to S-Video sources or just composite ones? If so, it could mean the XRGB Mini has a better comb filter than your plasma. Just throwing ideas out there, not sure if I'm right or not.

[markfrizb]

Has anyone tried putting this in a playchoice 10 board? Tim, would this work in pc10's? I presume that I would still use the NES PPU?? Wouldn't that be a reversal of fortune .... Now NES's get raided to rgb pc10's (which is already rgb but inverted video and certainly not digital crisp like the NESRGB ) and also to replace what was robbed from pc10's before....

AND.... If it can be in a PC10 pcb, how tolerant is the NESRGB to 5volt fluctuations? Since the pc10 gets it regulated power from an adjustable switching power supply, it's not uncommon that these power supplies output higher than 5.0 volts through age or neglect or just out of adjustment.

Thanks

[cr4zymanz0r]

I don't know if I read you right but did you try not hooking the audio up to your NESRGB? I wired up my NESRGB but completely skipped the audio wiring instructions and I just use the audio on present on a stock toaster. Expanded audio plays just fine. Unless there's a specific reason you need it to go through the NESRGB first?

Yes, even on the stock audio circuit in a NES front loader (even without the Famicom cart audio mod) gives me some audio buzzing. I guess it all boils down to personal preference and what equipment you're using though. On the speakers in a standard CRT TV the buzzing isn't all that noticeable to me at normal volume levels. Honestly at first what little buzz I could hear I just assumed might be attributed to me picking up the TV for $10 at Goodwill . After trying it on the better (but nothing super awesome) sound equipment in the living room the buzzing was far more noticeable and annoying now. It's mainly noticeable during silence such as when the game is paused or a silent title screen.

I might consider myself a videophile, but I'm no audiophile by any means. I could personally live with the default audio on CRT TV speakers, though I'm sure others might be more picky. What I can't really live with is the level of buzzing present in my better living room setup. After the buzzing was discovered I hooked headphones directly to the NESRGB sound circuit and the stock sound circuit to verify the buzzing was introduced somewhere in the NES and not my audio or video equipment. Here's a breakdown of things:

1.) Default NES sound circuit on CRT TV speakers: Buzzing was present, but at normal volume levels it wasn't enough for me to put much thought into it.
2.) Default NES sound circuit on HDTV+XRGB3+decent sound bar setup: The buzzing was very noticeable
3.) NESRGB sound circuit with my initial Famicom cart audio mixing method on HDTV+XRGB3+decent sound bar: Similar level of buzzing to the default NES sound circuit
4.) NESRGB sound circuit with no Famicom cart audio mixing wired up on HDTV+XRGB3+decent sound bar: No buzz at all. Virtually perfect.
5.) NESRGB sound circuit with a low quality shielded wire going directly from the sound output pin on the Famicom cart connector to the resistors at the mixing point outlined previously on the NESRGB board sound circuit: Much improved over my original method, but there is still some buzzing when using NES carts (worked fine with my Akumajo Densetsu Famicom cart though). I could probably live with it but now curiosity has had me order a good single conductor shielded wire to see if that completely fixes things.

I could post a nice guide when I'm done, but I'm not sure how helpful it would be to everyone else. Since I modded a Famicom converter directly into my NES front loader as a new cart slot I can run a wire directly from the cart audio out pin to the NESRGB sound mixing point. The best anyone just using a converter could really do is have half of the path running through the NES itself and the other half running as a shielded wire to the NESRGB sound circuit. I have the feeling this would probably introduce noise. While the NESRGB sound circuit does sound more crisp than the default NES sound circuit, it's a little more pointless if buzzing is introduced to it when modding to add in Famicom cart audio

======================
As for people asking about stereo on the NESRGB sound circuit, it's not really possible. the NESRGB sound circuit taps CPU pins 1 and 2 to get the audio (just like the existing stereo sound mods do), but it then mixes them into mono in the next step. If you want stereo you basically just have to ignore the NESRGB sound circuit and use one of the existing stereo mods/circuits.

[cyborc]

[
Yes, even on the stock audio circuit in a NES front loader (even without the Famicom cart audio mod) gives me some audio buzzing. I guess it all boils down to personal preference and what equipment you're using though. On the speakers in a standard CRT TV the buzzing isn't all that noticeable to me at normal volume levels. Honestly at first what little buzz I could hear I just assumed might be attributed to me picking up the TV for $10 at Goodwill . After trying it on the better (but nothing super awesome) sound equipment in the living room the buzzing was far more noticeable and annoying now. It's mainly noticeable during silence such as when the game is paused or a silent title screen.

I've tried a toaster, top loader, AV famicom, and twin famicom and they all buzzed. I usually game with headphones so the buzzing is more noticeable to me. If Tim's circuit gets rid of the buzzing that is very good news indeed!

[ApolloBoy]

I notice a faint buzzing on my original Famicom through my stereo system, but it only becomes real noticeable if I really turn the volume up. I'll have to try this on my front loader, top loader and AV Fami but they should give me the same results.

EDIT: Same deal with the AV Fami and top loader.

[bryan_c]

4.) NESRGB sound circuit with no Famicom cart audio mixing wired up on HDTV+XRGB3+decent sound bar: No buzz at all. Virtually perfect.
5.) NESRGB sound circuit with a low quality shielded wire going directly from the sound output pin on the Famicom cart connector to the resistors at the mixing point outlined previously on the NESRGB board sound circuit: Much improved over my original method, but there is still some buzzing when using NES carts (worked fine with my Akumajo Densetsu Famicom cart though). I could probably live with it but now curiosity has had me order a good single conductor shielded wire to see if that completely fixes things.

To clarify, for point 4, by "no Famicom cart audio mixing" do you mean the only audio-related connections made to the NESRGB are from CPU pins 1 and 2? This is with both Famicom and NES carts?

For point 5, could the cause of the buzzing with NES carts be due to the relevant wire running to the NESRGB not being connected to anything and so it might be acting as an antenna of sorts? With Akumajo Densetsu in the mix, the wire would be (eventually) connected to the audio hadware in the cartridge at Famicom cartridge pin 46. How do Famicom carts without expanded audio (in particular, ones which directly connect pins 45 and 46) sound? If you've left pin 45 floating I suspect it would have similar buzzing as a NES cart.

[Hamburglar]

I tried my toaster even using headphones and I heard no buzzing using the stock RCA jack on the right side of the console. I guess it's all luck? I am sensitive to buzzing, too (my toaster that was modded with an RGB PPU had buzzing until someone fixed it).

Here's what's interesting. If I use composite video for sync, I get the diagonal interference even when using the XRGB Mini. If I use csync instead, no interference.

With s-video, I get the horizontal interference when not using the XRGB Mini (meaning straight to my plasma TV) but if I do s-video over the XRGB Mini, the diagonal interference goes away.

Odd, right?

Is comb filtering of some kind applied to S-Video sources or just composite ones? If so, it could mean the XRGB Mini has a better comb filter than your plasma. Just throwing ideas out there, not sure if I'm right or not.

My plasma does not produce any diagonal "jailbars" using s-video on the SNES, so I am not too sure the TV is to blame. Again, the diagonal jailbars were present even over RGB SCART plugged into the XRGB Mini, but that was until I used csync instead of composite for sync. I wonder if there is a similar fix for s-video? Since s-video doesn't use a separate sync line like RGB, I don't know what to narrow it down to.

[ninn]

I wouldn't be surprised if the "buzzing" orginates from a cheapo Powersupply. Or it is 50/60hz buzzing from your mains.