Someone wanna try this thing?

[mystran]

Yo, finally had a moment to do some shmup dev too again..

This isn't even close to finished, especially graphically it's largely placeholder, but I want some feedback on gameplay and whether it's a sensible direction and whether the thing is fun enough to try to make it look (or sound) more reasonable (I'm sort of planning some 3D-type background stuff).

This is basically the first build where I kinda have most of the important things working and sort of have 5 short stages so it feels a bit more whole, and I figured it's time to let people try and let me know how it rates on the garbage-o-meter.

Hopefully this link works (32MB, mostly my wonderful music takes some space, so I'd rather not host it on my regular webhost).
There's a separate screenshot too (see link), but doesn't seem one can link images from there to here.

There is only one difficulty currently, which shall henceforth be called "arcade" which starts easy and then gets a bit more difficult for stages 3/4/5 (but nothing too extreme, please let me know how you think it feels). The bullet density is intended to be "relaxed" but most people would probably still call it a bullet hell... or maybe popcorn hell. Bosses are short because.. well they are supposed to have about 4 patterns each (so not that long really), but .. they don't yet (and .. right now they are kinda too easy too, and too many simplistic patterns, and generally suck, but yeah).

You need a reasonable CPU and a "real" GPU (might not run on Intel integrated, try the patch1 exe). It's not horribly demanding, but it's not very well optimized either (too much overdraw, stupid algorithms, messy shaders, you name it). You have been warned. Any "gaming" system should handle it, but my (cheap) laptop with slowish AMD processor/integrated does get some slowdowns at times.

It's C++ and Direct3D9, but .. I tend to try to "make it work, then make it fast" and right now we're in the "make it work" phase.

You need DirectX 9 libs. The original needs MSVC2008 runtime, the patch1 version doesn't.

Controls:

Keyboard: A/S/D for autofire/focus/bomb, arrows to move, space for pause.
X360 controller: X = autofire, A = focus, B = bomb, either dpad or left stick to move, Y = pause.

In menus you can use enter/esc too, if you want to.

Yes I know A/S/D is not the standard, but the standard locks arrows on my laptop, and I like to be able to test on that thing too.

Settings:

It tries to run at desktop resolution and vsync (or 62.5fps=16ms if vsync is higher or doesn't work.. this probably need some work).
The game itself is 4:5, assumes pixels are square and will add black borders as necessary.

There is: F5/F6/F7 for TATE (appears to work), F10 for "quick close" and F11 to toggle windowed mode (which can be resized).

Settings menu not implemented, it's the main thing still missing.. well.. except art.

Gameplay:

Try not to get hit by bullets (currently enemies just bump you, but that might change).

Shoot enemies for stars, collect stars for multiplier (resets each stage for now). Both activities award some score.
The star attraction range is smaller when in focus-fire and larger if you stop shooting. Good luck with catching them all.

If you die, you'll lose some of your multiplier. Bombing (no damage, just clears bullets) has no effect on score.
Grazing makes a click-sound, but is otherwise useless in the current scoring system (left the effect in anyway).

There are extends at 25mil and 100mil (no sound effect yet, sorry).
Should probably put the second extend at 75mil, but then again stages need work anyway...

There are no continues.. because what's the point, practice has infinite lives (counts misses though).

If you 1cc arcade you get to fight the TLB, which is unavailable in practice mode.
It's not very hard or anything, but gotta have some sort of incentive.

Should probably add some lives/bombs left at clear bonus, but right now there's none.


---

Anyway, let me know if it's fun.. and whether it's worth putting more effort into..

[railslave]

Thats just so impressive :O

Love the general feel to it all, its super slick and that jazzy music!

also i love the sounds, sounds crystalline and fragile.


Just wow!!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I tried to run it but it just crashes after playing a second of music without any meaningful error messages. All I've got available at the moment is a computer with a crappy onboard GPU, the one with an actual Nvidia card I need to hook back up.

[n0rtygames]

Nice. Keep up the good work! Shows promise. Ease up on the additive blending a bit in some places and maybe make the stars not follow you around quite so much... can't understand why they're trailing behind me sometimes and I just wanna collect them *now*

Major bug:
Force yourself to die and get gameover state as the boss is spawning and the warning message is about to show. When you spawn the boss you have a condition where the player will get stuck in a dead state with a boss floating there doing nothing and you cannot return to the main menu.

[mystran]

I tried to run it but it just crashes after playing a second of music without any meaningful error messages. All I've got available at the moment is a computer with a crappy onboard GPU, the one with an actual Nvidia card I need to hook back up.

Probably the render thread crashed. After a quick look through the code, I suspect the render target code might be the blame. Basically it just returns a null-pointer if 4xMSAA doesn't work, and the game render doesn't check for that, because... well.. it's supposed to downgrade automatically, apparently I just never implemented that. I'll fix that later today, if you want to give it another try, maybe it helps.

[mystran]

Nice. Keep up the good work! Shows promise. Ease up on the additive blending a bit in some places

Any specific thing where the blending seems problematic? It's mostly just player shots, stars and explosions/sparks, all of which are mostly visual noise. Artistically I might agree, but then again I can't draw stuff that looks nice, so I just spam particles instead.

and maybe make the stars not follow you around quite so much... can't understand why they're trailing behind me sometimes and I just wanna collect them *now*

It's supposed to encourage compromising your otherwise ideal movement paths by forcing you to worry about how to actually catch them.
There's basically some acceleration to them (when attracting) and then some movement towards the player. I suppose I could increase the movement towards the player over time (when attracting) to make them eventually catch you, or something. I'll give it a try.

Major bug:
Force yourself to die and get gameover state as the boss is spawning and the warning message is about to show. When you spawn the boss you have a condition where the player will get stuck in a dead state with a boss floating there doing nothing and you cannot return to the main menu.

The pause-menu still works, right? Thanks, seems like quite a weird bug, since the game-over logic is kinda separate from everything. All it does it prevent you from spawning, kill music, fade the "game over" text, and stop stage sequencing from advancing (so the boss should hover around if and only if the stage was far enough that it has been spawned, which happens around half-way through the warning screen). Did the "game over" text show up?

[mystran]

Major bug:
Force yourself to die and get gameover state as the boss is spawning and the warning message is about to show. When you spawn the boss you have a condition where the player will get stuck in a dead state with a boss floating there doing nothing and you cannot return to the main menu.

I can't seem to reproduce this. Tried about a dozen times now.. game over just before warning, during warning (before and after the boss spawns). The game-over might be a bit slow to appear (maybe need more obvious graphical transitions?), but whatever I try it still fades out to menu eventually (yeah it takes several seconds, the idea being to allow for some time to restart).

Now the following stuff could be fixed: boss-pattern-texts show even during gameover (I'll fix that, though the current texts are mostly a "memory aid" since there's no sensible phase-transitions or distinct models), non-boss enemies (bomb carrier) probably should escape when the boss-music starts (will fix at some point). The boss might appear and just hang around there (could make it escape too, but bosses need more transition scripting in any case).

[mystran]

Anyway uploaded a new version of the code (overwrite the .exe, keep the data):

- should fall back to no MSAA if that fails (might make it work on some systems)
- statically linked MSVC runtime, so that's not a requirement anymore


edit: also.. people that manage to run it: any comments on the difficulty?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I got it to run, your update fixed it, very promising start, the mini ships fire very reminiscent of Palm Abnormal when you're moving left in right. Bombing as just a simple shield is a tad bland, it's more satisfying to have a nice explosion or some damage to go with it. :3

I can't comment on the difficulty as it only runs 20 FPS on this box, I'll see about running it on a non-shit machine later this weekend.

[mystran]

I got it to run, your update fixed it, very promising start, the mini ships fire very reminiscent of Palm Abnormal when you're moving left in right.

Yeah.. not really an accident (also sorry for the stage 2 music loop, which is kinda temporary). And the focus takes some inspiration from Refrain Blitz-focus. There might possibly be other types that play differently (in fact there's code too), but I just left that one in for now, because I think it's most fun, and it's the most well tested in terms of the current stages.

Bombing as just a simple shield is a tad bland, it's more satisfying to have a nice explosion or some damage to go with it. :3

Yeah.. it was something that I did quite quickly, basically to make my "first public version" more accessible.

But you can ignore the bomb button completely if you want to, it's not really necessary to win the game.

I can't comment on the difficulty as it only runs 20 FPS on this box, I'll see about running it on a non-shit machine later this weekend.

Thanks for comments anyway. I'm glad that it at least runs.. since improving performance is usually easier than getting stuff to work in the first place.

edit: another thing about the performance is that I waste some to try to improve the input latency.. I don't even start a game-update for the next frame, before the GPU reports that the previous frame was presented to screen.. but on slower systems it might make sense to instead allow one-frame of lag to keep things more consistent..

[mystran]

Urgh.. apparently it's possible to pickup bombs after game-over.. haha.. well.. another bug to fix

[Cagar]

I'm positively VERY surprised.

Mistä saan sun paremmin yhteyttä, skype tjsp?

[mystran]

Sent a PM.

Also doing some rework for stage 3 before more major rework.. since right now the timing there is a bit too unforgiving.

edit: also trying to get the input replay stuff working.. there is theoretically support, but no way to save or replay yet..

[Aleksei]

OH man, I like this game, I no missed the first two stages and got to the 3rd boss before game over.

15,225,014 - stage 3 boss.

I practiced stage 4 with 6 misses and the last with 7, difficulty really ramps up! Good game

[mystran]

OH man, I like this game, I no missed the first two stages and got to the 3rd boss before game over.

15,225,014 - stage 3 boss.

Cool. Thanks for posting the score too; it very useful info. I was a bit worried that the 25mil extend is "automatic" as long as you survive stage 3, but apparently it still takes at least casual effort to get it at that point in the game (where as in theory you can get it on stage 2 boss, though that'll require some milking).

[Aleksei]

OH man, I like this game, I no missed the first two stages and got to the 3rd boss before game over.

15,225,014 - stage 3 boss.

Cool. Thanks for posting the score too; it very useful info. I was a bit worried that the 25mil extend is "automatic" as long as you survive stage 3, but apparently it still takes at least casual effort to get it at that point in the game (where as in theory you can get it on stage 2 boss, though that'll require some milking).

How do you milk the boss, it doesn't have parts? Also, my score improved because I tried to use less concentrated shot, the throw is bigger and riskier but the reward is higher as you've stated. So is the optimal way to immediately stop shooting as soon as stars from and enemy appear, if so, things will get hairy quickly...but I guess with practice you can find what parts you can that off, like the bosses I'm guessing.

Anyway, got to stage 4, this is my second actual run with some level practice last night.

20,472,727 Stage 4

[mystran]

OH man, I like this game, I no missed the first two stages and got to the 3rd boss before game over.

15,225,014 - stage 3 boss.

Cool. Thanks for posting the score too; it very useful info. I was a bit worried that the 25mil extend is "automatic" as long as you survive stage 3, but apparently it still takes at least casual effort to get it at that point in the game (where as in theory you can get it on stage 2 boss, though that'll require some milking).

How do you milk the boss, it doesn't have parts?

Well, basically what you can do is let the bullet count increase before you complete a pattern so you get a bigger cancel. Depends on the pattern whether it's worth the trouble. For the last pattern of each boss, you'll get all the stars automatically, but for others just stop shooting and most of them will come to you (especially if you're near mid-screen) which is obviously not a good survival strategy if you're trying to kill the bosses quick, but that's the point.

Also, my score improved because I tried to use less concentrated shot, the throw is bigger and riskier but the reward is higher as you've stated. So is the optimal way to immediately stop shooting as soon as stars from and enemy appear, if so, things will get hairy quickly...but I guess with practice you can find what parts you can that off, like the bosses I'm guessing.

Well, you can alternatively go closer before you kill the enemies... or in practice some combination of the two. You actually don't need that huge pauses on shooting if you're controlling the screen well (and you can kill popcorn in waves mostly). It's designed to reward aggressive and precision play (which is not necessarily a bad plan for survival either). And yeah, gets hairy in the later levels... but in general I tried to make the level design such that it's easier to play aggressive anyway.

[Aleksei]

I see, by the way, any chance you can upload a link to download that awesome BGM?

[mystran]

I see, by the way, any chance you can upload a link to download that awesome BGM?

I'll think about it.

[mystran]

Ok, last night Cagar testing seems to indicate that the stages are not ridiculously difficult, but not totally trivial either.

I was a bit worried about whether some of the routing is logical enough, since the game does tend to punish for not killing stuff fast enough.. but for the most part it seems I managed to anticipate player movement quite well.

The current bosses appear to be pretty-much push-overs, but then again that wasn't exactly a surprise. After watching someone else play it though, I'm not quite convinced my ideas about the bosses fit the theme of the rest of the game that well though, might make sense to go into a slightly different direction with those... to fit the style of the rest of the game better..

[n0rtygames]

The current bosses appear to be pretty-much push-overs, but then again that wasn't exactly a surprise. After watching someone else play it though, I'm not quite convinced my ideas about the bosses fit the theme of the rest of the game that well though, might make sense to go into a slightly different direction with those... to fit the style of the rest of the game better..

Bosses are hard.. You should read Giest's thread on this if you haven't already. Contains some useful information

The problem comes from the fact that making a hectic and manic stage is actually quite easy. You just place enemies and make them fire a bunch of bullets then remove enemies where there is too much congestion and bullshit, right?

Not so easy in the case of a boss where you're actually having to do all of the work. Things like this are REALLY difficult to gauge, because as Giest says - each time you compile and run, you're actually getting more practise. So while the solution to your insane bosses pattern might be to wait until the last possible moment and tap dodge ever so slightly left - if you reached that solution after say 5 compiles, as easy as the solution is... this is probably not wise for your stage 1 boss as the player is only going to have 3 lives at this point!

Worth watching videos of existing Cave games for this. Ketsui, DFK and DOJBL on normal difficulty spring immediately to mind as you can pretty much flail through those patterns but having completely zero presence of mind will get you killed.

TL;DR - Boss patterns. Fucking hard and rightly so

[Cagar]

I found his bosses easy. I can nmnb every boss with my eyes closed.

[n0rtygames]

I found his bosses easy. I can nmnb every boss with my eyes closed.

Yes, but you're also rocking a SDOJ ALL, stage 5 EX, DOJ 2nd loop... and many others. You are not an average player.

I have said you were a good judge of finding overly difficult bullshit based on the fact you are a skilled player. Does not mean you are a fair judge of difficulty and if you fly through a section, it does not mean the section MUST be made harder! I would expect you to be getting through boss patterns with ease. Yet the same boss patterns would probably wreck the shit out of other players.

[railslave]

I found his bosses easy. I can nmnb every boss with my eyes closed.

From a complete noobs (not 1cc'd a game) perspective, i find the bosses very hard...too much so (considering its level 1)

But if thats what your going for.

Depends on how far your willing to take this game i guess, the demographic. (I guess anyone getting this sort of game is going to be pretty good at games)

Still, it looks,plays and sounds that beautiful it makes you want to come back..so. Its a pleasure to play it.

Its the game you want to make .. so im all for that , we didnt make it maybe theres too much player consideration these days. I NEED to work harder

[mystran]

The current bosses appear to be pretty-much push-overs, but then again that wasn't exactly a surprise. After watching someone else play it though, I'm not quite convinced my ideas about the bosses fit the theme of the rest of the game that well though, might make sense to go into a slightly different direction with those... to fit the style of the rest of the game better..

Bosses are hard.. You should read Giest's thread on this if you haven't already. Contains some useful information

The problem comes from the fact that making a hectic and manic stage is actually quite easy. You just place enemies and make them fire a bunch of bullets then remove enemies where there is too much congestion and bullshit, right?

I actually find making interesting stages quite hard... but I've actually been doing it the other way. I make simple waves (say one large enemy only) and then trying how one could dodge that. Then I think stuff like "what are the positions where the player likely to be after dodging this" and then place more stuff either to block the ridiculously easy routes, to encourage the player to choose one of the better routes. Then I play-test it a LOT of times, trying to do everything in as many ways as I can think of, including some really silly ones, trying to find "abusive" routes where the difficulty falls too much, but also routes that are seemingly reasonably, but lead to ugly situations later. But in general.. the amount of congestion and bullshit goes up, rather than down, during the testing time of a level.

Not so easy in the case of a boss where you're actually having to do all of the work. Things like this are REALLY difficult to gauge, because as Giest says - each time you compile and run, you're actually getting more practise. So while the solution to your insane bosses pattern might be to wait until the last possible moment and tap dodge ever so slightly left - if you reached that solution after say 5 compiles, as easy as the solution is... this is probably not wise for your stage 1 boss as the player is only going to have 3 lives at this point!

Well, gauging bosses is hard, because some people do well in some stuff, and suck in other stuff, that someone else might find trivial. I'm horrible at any slower / confusing patterns, so I tend to rate those far harder than they actually are. At the same time I find reflex-dodging fast stuff quite easy, so I've a bit afraid to go that direction.

Worth watching videos of existing Cave games for this. Ketsui, DFK and DOJBL on normal difficulty spring immediately to mind as you can pretty much flail through those patterns but having completely zero presence of mind will get you killed.

Yeah, part of the problem is that I tried to stay away from "typical Cave-style" bosses. I'm not sure if that was the right design choice though. I wanted to do stuff where there are more distinctly different things you have to do (puzzles if you want) or some kind of gotchas or whatever.. but it appears I'm not really a natural talent in terms of that kind of stuff.

Maybe I'll try doing a version with more Cave-style bosses, and see if it fits better.

[mystran]

Those (apparently several people) that ended up watching me play cagar label earlier today, probably figured that I'm absolute HORRIBLE when it comes to anything that moves relatively slowly. That might have something to do with the boss-difficulty thing..

[n0rtygames]

Those (apparently several people) that ended up watching me play cagar label earlier today, probably figured that I'm absolute HORRIBLE when it comes to anything that moves relatively slowly. That might have something to do with the boss-difficulty thing..

Hi, yes - that was me. You can't trust Cagar in the slightest...

Dude, just make it with fast bullets if you want. Its your damned game.

[BPzeBanshee]

Had a go at this today with the patch and yeah, Intel Integrated from 2012 isn't cutting it despite a 3.3ghz i3 CPU (I get 45 FPS on average), but it does run and without noticeable graphics issues.

I can't really comment on difficulty due to low framerate skewing any view on the matter, but the impression I got so far is good. I can see this becoming a decent bullet-hell with plenty of those pretty colours all the Cave/Touhou fangirls love and the gameplay to back it up to make a solid shmup, given time and effort.

On the subject of slower vs fast bullets: Akashicverse is very much bullet hell and has a high bullet count, but is quite fast-paced with its bullet speeds rivalling that of Raiden Fighters on occasions. If you need a recent game for sources of inspiration I'd give it a shot, especially if you want something a little outside the generic Cave spectrum (not that either which way is a bad thing) - it's certainly inspired me in some of my choices.

[n0rtygames]

especially if you want something a little outside the generic Cave spectrum

I swear you silly Raiden hipsters with your long hair and speedcore menu music forget about things like Futari Ultra, SDOJ-Ex or Dangun Feveron! Also max rank Futari orig...

Anyway, embrace the fast bullets!

[BPzeBanshee]

Nevermind my metal, Dangun Feveron is not "generic Cave". As if all of their games have nyanning cats and spinning Billy Herringtons everywhere.