240p scanline reduction

[andykara2003]

Hi - I guess a lot of the guys here probably love pronounced, strong scanlines for their 240p material.

I'm not keen on them. This question is in the interest of finding out the ways to reduce heavy scanlines but still keeping the 'natural' 240p image (i.e. without resorting to linedoubling or any other processing). This has become a real point of interest to me.

My thoughts so far on how to reduce scanline prominence:


1: Use a shadow mask TV instead of a Trinitron-style aperture grille type (which tend to have stronger scanlines). I'm shipping a high quality shadow mask CRT from Germany for this reason (Loewe E3000 chassis).

2: Use a smaller TV (25 inches is my happy medium - I don't want to go smaller)

3: Use a PAL console which has more lines of resolution (a no go for me as I'm not into 50Hz gaming)

4: Sit further away from the TV (not for me either)

5: Over saturate the image by turning the contrast up (not my thing - causes loss of detail)

6: Consider luminance blooming of the cathode ray beam according to the TV type in question.


This last point has me interested. Here's a quote from Fudoh:

"Scanlines on a CRT come in many different flavors. The biggest factor is the luminance blooming of the cathode ray beam. The higher the luminance, the more bloom you get and the more nondescript the scanlines get. A BVM hardly blooms. That's why the scanlines are so extremely prominent on those sets. A CRT scanline is always black and the actual visibility of the scanline depends on the luminance and blooming present on the rows above and below."

So I guess that from this it would be safe to say that there will be TV types that have higher levels of luminance blooming than others (I'm only interested in TV's, not monitors).


So my questions are:

a) Are there any additional factors that can reduce scanline prominence other than those above?

b) Can anyone direct me to types/makes of shadow mask TVs that have higher luminance blooming, therefore subtler scanlines?


It's not as if I want to get rid of scanlines altogether - I still want them there - but ideally smaller and less contrasted to the image with more luminance blooming.....

Cheers.

[EmperorZelos]

just use an HD TV with no scanlines and some scalers and you're all set and done *rolls eyes*

[andykara2003]

just use an HD TV with no scanlines and some scalers and you're all set and done *rolls eyes*

I already mentioned that I don't want to resort to line doubling or other processing which is exactly what an HDTV or scaler would do - I want to achieve an authentic 240p image on an SD CRT TV

[BubbaMc]

Turn up the contrast.

[andykara2003]

Turn up the contrast.

As I said in my post, I'm not a fan of doing that. If you were to turn up the contrast to the point where scanlines became less visible, you would be intruducing blooming and colour bleed which means detail is lost.

[matrigs]

Maybe play some games for a change

[andykara2003]

Maybe play some games for a change

I play games quite a bit

[fagin]

You could always defocus the image slightly.

[andykara2003]

You could always defocus the image slightly.

That's a good idea There must be a way to externalize the focus pot from inside the TV for on the fly adjustment in normal use.

[cools]

Buy a crap TV rather than some fancy retro-approved one. Job done.

[andykara2003]

I've tried that; I have a couple of older Sonys hanging around with outputs that have softened with age - it's not what I'm looking for. Thinking about it I'd ideally like a sharp picture, just with less prominent and lighter scanlines. I think that the answer is in higher luminance blooming in the scanlines.

Here's an image from Fudoh:



This shows the polar opposites of no luminance blooming of the BVM vs high luminance blooming of the Nanao monitor. I'm looking for the qualities of the Nanao in a TV.

[matrigs]

Why don't you buy an arcade monitor then?

[andykara2003]

Why don't you buy an arcade monitor then?

That might be a good option, although I wouldn't know which monitor that has an external case would have the same qualities as the Nanao..

In any case, Fudoh has just informed me that TV wise, I'm looking at a late 80's/early 90's Grundig or Blaupunkt to get the same effect as the Nanao, which is fantastic to know.

[cools]

What Fudoh has described is correct, but you're interpreting it wrongly. You've posted a picture yourself before that exhibits the behaviour:


See how the brighter parts of the image have less visible scanlines? That's luminance blooming.

You can also see this in SCART Hunters blog:

In any case, Fudoh has just informed me that TV wise, I'm looking at a late 80's/early 90's Grundig or Blaupunkt to get the same effect as the Nanao, which is fantastic to know.

http://scarthunter.blogspot.co.uk/2013/ ... quiet.html

[Galgomite]

I'm pretty sure sharpness and scanlines go hand in hand on a CRT, so what you're after doesn't really exist in a pure form. All the ways to get what you want would involve a workaround: emulators on a CRT monitor; modded xbox outputting 480i to CRT TV; HD CRT. If you're free enough to import CRTs perhaps you should look out for Fudoh's beloved 4:3 plasma. Plasmas in my opinion have all the charm of CRTs (phosphor glow, crisp motion), excellent sharpness, and no scanlines.

[andykara2003]

What Fudoh has described is correct, but you're interpreting it wrongly.

But isn't this kind of effect just called 'blooming' - something that happens to the colours on the screen when the contrast is set too high?

By 'luminance blooming' I think that Fudoh was pointing to a blooming of the cathode ray beam that happens under normal TV contrast settings that isn't a kind of localized colour bleed, but a uniformly lighter scanlines due to the light coming from the cathode ray beam being more diffuse.

He says:

"Scanlines on a CRT come in many different flavors. The biggest factor is the luminance blooming of the cathode ray beam. The higher the luminance, the more bloom you get and the more nondescript the scanlines get"

I don't think he meant that certain displays do the kind of effect in the top picture under normal circumstances. In that picture, the contrast is definitely overdriven. Doing this is one way of reducing scanlines, but not a good one

This 'luminance blooming' seems to be what's happening with the Nanao - the scanlines are much lighter but the contrast is not overdriven....

(Thanks for the link by the way)

[andykara2003]

If you're free enough to import CRTs perhaps you should look out for Fudoh's beloved 4:3 plasma.

That plasma does look awesome - I might just do that

[cools]

In that picture, the contrast is definitely overdriven.

It may be in that picture, but this is entirely normal for arcade displays (not the overdriving, the blooming).

I was looking for this picture earlier - finally found it:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p907140

[andykara2003]

In that picture, the contrast is definitely overdriven.

It may be in that picture, but this is entirely normal for arcade displays (not the overdriving, the blooming).

I was looking for this picture earlier - finally found it:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p907140

You're right but it's my understanding is that displays in arcades are generally set at too-high contrast levels anyway.

I'm not arguing at all, I just want to understand this - you are probably more experienced than me. But if what you're saying is true, how can the image of the Nanao have light scanlines with no localised blooming? The blooming you're talking about looks very different to the picture of the Nanao to me. The blooming in your example happens only around bright colours - the blooming is not uniform but localised to these brightly coloured areas - and the scanlines in the picture of the Nanao look completely uniform in brightness.....

[Fudoh]

I probably should have been clearer on that statement.

Blooming is an important factor (especially since many monitors or TV sets are set for way too high white levels), but the nature of the tube itself is still easily as important. On a BVM (just as an example) you can overdrive the white level as much as you want and you will hardly reduce those pronounced scanlines. On the other hand different tubes are very well capable of producing *way less pronounced* scanlines even at very reasonable white level settings.

In the early to mid 90s I often took my SNES and PCE to a friend's house to play on a 29" Grundig set. When I got a 29" Trinitron myself the scanlines already were much stronger on my set than they were on his. Took quite some time to readjust. I remember sometimes setting the TV to anamorphic widescreen just to reduce the strength of the scanlines.

[andykara2003]

I probably should have been clearer on that statement.

Blooming is an important factor (especially since many monitors or TV sets are set for way too high white levels), but the nature of the tube itself is still easily as important. On a BVM (just as an example) you can overdrive the white level as much as you want and you will hardly reduce those pronounced scanlines. On the other hand different tubes are very well capable of producing *way less pronounced* scanlines even at very reasonable white level settings.

In the early to mid 90s I often took my SNES and PCE to a friend's house to play on a 29" Grundig set. When I got a 29" Trinitron myself the scanlines already were much stronger on my set than they were on his. Took quite some time to readjust. I remember sometimes setting the TV to anamorphic widescreen just to reduce the strength of the scanlines.

Thanks for the clarification Fudoh - so if the grundigs and Sonys are at the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of scanline definition, would it be correct to assume than the Loewes would be closer to the Grundig than the Sony scanline wise as it's a shadow mask TV?

[Fudoh]

I don't know if they represent the extremes. I have only seen so many CRTs in my live and I have no doubts that there are many more great ones out there. Loewe is certainly closer to Philips/Grundig as it is to Trinitron tubes.

[andykara2003]

I don't know if they represent the extremes. I have only seen so many CRTs in my live and I have no doubts that there are many more great ones out there. Loewe is certainly closer to Philips/Grundig as it is to Trinitron tubes.

Thanks - good to know

[gray117]

You're unlikely to be stuck with those pronounced BVM scanlines on any consumer 15khz tv.

Avoid tri-sync / high res monitors, these tend to have more pronounced scanlines with 15khz material.

... Beyond that you are probably inventing a problem, that I don't think you'll encounter... but in any case looks like you've got the general advice you were after for your optimal scanline appearance - good luck

[andykara2003]

You're unlikely to be stuck with those pronounced BVM scanlines on any consumer 15khz tv.

Avoid tri-sync / high res monitors, these tend to have more pronounced scanlines with 15khz material.

... Beyond that you are probably inventing a problem, that I don't think you'll encounter... but in any case looks like you've got the general advice you were after for your optimal scanline appearance - good luck

Thanks very much I'm looking forward to replacing my Trinitron which is too strongly scanlined for me...

[matrigs]

Why don't you buy an arcade monitor then?

That might be a good option, although I wouldn't know which monitor that has an external case would have the same qualities as the Nanao..

In any case, Fudoh has just informed me that TV wise, I'm looking at a late 80's/early 90's Grundig or Blaupunkt to get the same effect as the Nanao, which is fantastic to know.

You can buy an enclosure yourself, like here:

http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... enlargeimg

... Beyond that you are probably inventing a problem, that I don't think you'll encounter...

I have to agree with this one. Although i really wish you the best of luck, i think that there is no solution to your "problem" as there is no problem to begin with. I see your posts on any major site regarding crt gaming and the answers are primarily the same. So i really don't know what you expect.

A bit more to read:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45468

[andykara2003]

You can buy an enclosure yourself, like here:

http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... enlargeimg

Thank for that, much appreciated.

I think that there is no solution to your "problem" as there is no problem to begin with. I see your posts on any major site regarding crt gaming and the answers are primarily the same. So i really don't know what you expect.

Didn't you read Fudoh's post?

'In the early to mid 90s I often took my SNES and PCE to a friend's house to play on a 29" Grundig set. When I got a 29" Trinitron myself the scanlines already were much stronger on my set than they were on his. Took quite some time to readjust. I remember sometimes setting the TV to anamorphic widescreen just to reduce the strength of the scanlines'

So it seems that there is definitely something to what I'm getting at. I have a Trinitron and, after some research, will change to a set more like the Grundig to get away from overly strong scanlines - sounds like a solution to a problem and a reasonable proposition to me

[fagin]

You could always defocus the image slightly.

That's a good idea There must be a way to externalize the focus pot from inside the TV for on the fly adjustment in normal use.

Easily done from a technical perspective.

[fagin]

You can buy an enclosure yourself, like here:

http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... enlargeimg

Thank for that, much appreciated.

I think that there is no solution to your "problem" as there is no problem to begin with. I see your posts on any major site regarding crt gaming and the answers are primarily the same. So i really don't know what you expect.

Didn't you read Fudoh's post?

'In the early to mid 90s I often took my SNES and PCE to a friend's house to play on a 29" Grundig set. When I got a 29" Trinitron myself the scanlines already were much stronger on my set than they were on his. Took quite some time to readjust. I remember sometimes setting the TV to anamorphic widescreen just to reduce the strength of the scanlines'

So it seems that there is definitely something to what I'm getting at. I have a Trinitron and, after some research, will change to a set more like the Grundig to get away from overly strong scanlines - sounds like a solution to a problem and a reasonable proposition to me

An early chassis type B&O MX should suffice.

I have an early and late one here. The early one is quite a bit less sharp than the Trinitron.... I hated it, which may mean you'll love it! The later chassis is sharper and more detailed (scanline wise).

[andykara2003]

An early chassis type B&O MX should suffice.

I have an early and late one here. The early one is quite a bit less sharp than the Trinitron.... I hated it, which may mean you'll love it! The later chassis is sharper and more detailed (scanline wise).

Thanks Fagin I definitely have the B&O's in my sights - I wish they would have done a 25" in the MX series. I'm a little skeptical of the 'grey glass' screen (re.image 'pop') but will probably buy one anyway just to see what the fuss is about.