PS4 / Xbox One console war

[replayme]

I don't think the Wii U is a good value proposition, but even if it isn't me, can you please account for the fact as to why it has only shipped less than 4 million units in one year?

Why are you so hellbent on having me defend something that I obviously don't want to? I'm not here to talk about what stupid consumers and manipulative companies do. I'm here to say what I think makes sense for gamers. If you had noticed, I used the phrase "anti-consumer" a long while ago.

You have no right to tell me that I need to get my priorities straight. If that wasn't enough to make you look like a fool, then you add on that you think that playing CDs would add 20 pounds (so probably $30 USD) to the price of a console. "Hook, line, and sinker," as we say in the U.S.

Just like you have no right quibbling over the offerings of a mainstream console for your niche tastes. Add to that, Nintendo's anti-consumerist practices where they force (yes, FORCE) you into buying their over-priced shitty hardware when a simple "accessory" can suffice. You talk about not wanting extra inventory, even if the cost for it is £20, yet you can't justify the £250 burden that a Wii U is going to add to that of an average mainstream consumer. Here's a hint: money doesn't fall out of trees.

You also can't justify as to why the Wii U has shipped less than 4miion units, most of which happen to be sitting in warehouses at the moment. Collecting dust. So here's a reality check for you: Preference or taste is not fact.

To force people to buy your console just so that they can play your games is not only robbing people off their choice in a free market economy, but is tantamount to also practicing anti-consumerist behaviour.

As strong as I think Sony and MS first party games are, can you imagine what it would be like if no one else developed for their consoles? Their consoles would be shit. If Sony and MS won't be excused, then why should Nintendo be let off? Answer: they shouldn't.

The job of a console is to host a library of games. The Wii U fails in that regard. People such as yourselves who overlook this really need to have higher standards. Because for £250, I (along with many other people) expect a lot more for my money. Where is the third party support, and where is the choice?

If you're going to drag your heels and resist change, don't be surprised if people start leaving you for dust. And saying that, if you like your Wii U so much, where is its much vaunted DVD/CD playback? For£250, I (along with the vast majority) would expect that much. Maybe you should cry about your spilt milk to Nintendo instead. Seeing as they're clearly doing a great job. Not.

Hook. Line. And. Sinker.

[nZero]

Forza 5 rushed for launch?

[replayme]

I think (practically) every game that is released for launch (or Xmas) is rushed. Nothing new there...

As for the Wii U: the software drought of early 2013 was a clear indicator that the hardware was rushed. I'd argue the same thing for the PS4/XBone, if not for the fact that we're destined to get a whole plethora of (big hitting AAA) games for those consoles in 2014. MGS and Final Fantasy XV being just two obvious choices.

[system11]

£50 for a 10 year old game.

I just spent £150 on a twenty five year old game. Age is no obstacle as far as I'm concerned.

We're not talking about antiques here. Just antiquated views...

Antiquated views like making devices as useful as possible by supporting different media types at little to no cost. Both the new consoles are capable of running 'apps', having a media player app is an easy choice to make - but it's at odds with their desire to push their respective streaming services at extra cost to end users.

The idea of 'one device to rule them all' is actually very modern, having to have a CD player, and a DVD player, and a TiVO (and so on) all piled on top of eachother, that's antiquated.

If the hardware didn't already have the ability and it was going to require a different drive unit or extra decoders or something I'd be inclined to agree with you, but this is simply a case of rushing a machine out of the door (fair enough) coupled with an agenda. There's no reason they couldn't add it to the list of features to be patched in at a later date, and I'd be happier. As it stands until then, I can play them on my Blu-Ray player, made by Sony this year, with the same type of drive in it.

[system11]

Forza 5 rushed for launch?

GT5 Prologue all over again. Honestly it really seems like both consoles needed another year before launch - the step increment in game performance we're seeing doesn't really justify it happening now. Far too many games are targeting 30fps, NFS and Drive Club being obvious worst examples since racing at 30fps sucks. This is partially the fault of media and gamers though, I've seen threads where people are criticising the angles of shadows landing on cars. Really? Who notices that at 180mph?

[Friendly]

This new generation is not as big a step up as PS3 and 360 were coming from Xbox/GC/PS2. Mind you that except for its weak GPU, PS3 was an incredibly powerful system at the time it was introduced. Obviously this time neither company is willing to sell hardware at as big a loss as before (specifically Sony can't afford it). Nevertheless, the new systems are about 8x as powerful as the old ones. Some people think that's not powerful enough for a new generation, depsite most early PS4 games running at 1080p with nice effects. If that's not good enough, then what does that say about Xbone, which is more than 500 MFLOPS weaker than PS4?

For those of us who needed eye-opening, these past few months have provided quite the revelation about gaming "journalism". Prior to the launch of PS4 and Xbone, the gaming press in general (specifically in the US) have shown to be a complete joke and nothing but corporate marketing extensions, held on a short leash by their masters. Instead of actually informing potential customers, the very same people who made a big deal out of miniscule framerate and texture differences last gen are suddenly telling us that the difference between 720p and 1080p is insignificant. Since the actual difference of these resolutions is 921,600 pixels versus 2,073,600 pixels (225%!) on screen, there are but three possible explanations I can think of, only one of which makes sense:

A) Their collective eyes have suddenly gone bad
B) They inexplicably lost the technical knowledge they used to have a few short years ago
C) They are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them

[Drum]

While it's nice to have you back, Friendly, you are now an antiquated piece of hardware - we have replayme.

[Ganelon]

Yeah, I was a lot more disappointed in Forza Motorsport 5 when I read on Eurogamer how little content the game would have. It seems to be half DLC at this point, which helps explain how the game was able to make it out in time when the other ambitious racers got delayed.

At face value, 14 tracks seems low by modern standards, ridiculously so by Forza standards. However, if detailed laser scanning is really in play and the game looks as accurate as iRacing, then perhaps we'll actually be getting a bargain, at least compared to iRacing's $15/track. I'm skeptical that would be the reason but we'll find out in 2 weeks.

Regardless, Forza 5 is still one of the games I'm looking forward as long as it plays well. I plan on getting the LE, foregoing the season pass, and waiting for the (hopefully) inevitable Ultimate Collection version. The game could still look, sound, and play great despite being a relatively poor value. I wonder if Polyphony Digital's practice of keeping old models in-game for Gran Turismo 5 & 6 just to have more options would be the better or worse decision here.

[HydrogLox]

replayme - £50 for a 10 year old game.
Skykid - I just spent £150 on a twenty five year old game. Age is no obstacle as far as I'm concerned.
replayme - We're not talking about antiques here. Just antiquated views...
system11 - Antiquated views like making devices as useful as possible by supporting different media types at little to no cost.

Maybe there is confusion on what these "devices" really are. They play games and they contain an optical drive which video gaming consoles started using in the 4th generation. But with the so-called 8th generation Sony and Microsoft may be talking as if they are selling you a gaming console but they are actually selling you an entertainment service (PSN/Xbox Live) set-top box (STB) that may play select entertainment media from select external sources and formats. But the Raison d'être for these STBs is to keep pulling $$$ out of the mainstream consumers wallets for continuous service consumption. So the technical specs of the STB only have to be good enough to provide the services the mainstream is willing to pay for. If the mainstream decides that streamed 3D movies are more important than multi-player video games (for the sake of argument) then the best service/STB combo for streaming 3D movies will win - and the service component is the deciding factor, the STB only has to be "good enough".
The interesting thing is that Sony/Microsoft still makes you buy the STB outright even though that STB is the only way you can consume their service - my cable company prefers to milk me every month for their STB and they send me a new box when they feel like it - so we know where this is headed. However the current Sony/Microsoft situation is kind of like requiring you to buy the arcade cabinet for the privilege of feeding it with quarters that are then pipelined back to them.

[Friendly]

I'd say Microsoft's DRM would have been exactly that. Basically extended rentals of hard- and software. Which is of course the dream of any content provider (Sony just wasn't so deluded to think they could get away with stuff like that, so they didn't even try).

BTW, rumor has it that Assassin's Creed IV is the next 720p-candidate on Xbone (1080p on PS4).

It may not be so bad, though, as this video about Call of Duty Ghosts being 720p explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Run8gMVYj2Y

[system11]

I wasn't sure if it was a spoof or not, for a moment...

I see the new generation is absolutely going to continue one of the shittest parts of the current one. Retailer exclusive content, how I hate it. I've ordered two PS4 games (CoD and AC4), and I had to buy them from Game, which is a horrible high street chain. Reason? They bid for exclusive rights to stock the version of CoD which comes with an extra map, and the version of AC4 which comes with the Black Island content (among other things). Normally I try to avoid them like the plague, but at least now they have an online store you don't have to visit one of the soul crushing retail outlets.

Fuck retailer exclusives.

[HydrogLox]

It may not be so bad, though, as this video about Call of Duty Ghosts being 720p explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Run8gMVYj2Y

"720p is a design decision" - frankly I'm starting to suspect that the 720p restriction is a strategic decision - it may have nothing to do with the Xbox One's hardware capabilities. At least in the North American market Microsoft has the upper hand in the gaming service market and they intend to use it to modify it to operate on their terms. The "Xbox One" brand suggests that there will be "Xbox 2", "Xbox 3", etc. - strangely reminiscent of "iPhone 2", "iPhone 3" etc. Taking that parallel further the Xbox One hardware may not have to be better than the PS4 - because in 2-3 years there will be an "Xbox 2" that is better than the PS4 - without the initial investment of superior technology in the "Xbox One" line. At that point of time you may be able to get an "Xbox 2" for free in return for a 3 year Xbox Live commitment.
I haven't had cause to look at the Xbox One development API - but that API could have been designed to be a virtual machine API. Microsoft was caught napping when Java initially came onto the scene but they quickly embraced the old virtual machine concept with .NET - though they seem to be developing it towards a "Hardware Abstraction Layer" to get their stuff on other hardware - rather than running .NET on other operating systems. "Xbox Live" could be leveraging this expertise and the "Xbox One" VM specification may be limited to 720p. Most likely the 1080p VM won't appear until "Xbox 2" but by design the 720p VM API should be fully supported. Then "Xbox Live" would be ready for a 2-3 year refresh cycle where each refresh would introduce a new VM iteration while still supporting (at least) the most recent one. This would also better position them to more quickly react with hardware refreshes to the changing demands in the market place - without having to use bleeding edge technology on a guess.

Sony just wasn't so deluded to think they could get away with stuff like that, so they didn't even try.

But the problem is that Sony needs to somehow finance PSN services - and that is not going to work if they keep playing second fiddle to "Xbox Live" - they have to keep up or get out.

I see the new generation is absolutely going to continue one of the shittiest parts of the current one.

Well, the injection of mainstream cash into video game development has pushed the industry forward by leaps and bounds - however now the industry is dependent on that cash which locks it to the tastes of the mainstream. The businesses and communities that shaped the industry before going mainstream have been left behind.

[Daigohji]

I think (practically) every game that is released for launch (or Xmas) is rushed. Nothing new there...

As for the Wii U: the software drought of early 2013 was a clear indicator that the hardware was rushed. I'd argue the same thing for the PS4/XBone, if not for the fact that we're destined to get a whole plethora of (big hitting AAA) games for those consoles in 2014. MGS and Final Fantasy XV being just two obvious choices.

I wouldn't say those two titles disprove the PS4/XBone being rushed. We're only getting the £30 demo of MGSV next year. As for FFXV, I'll be surprised if that actually materialises in 2014, despite having been in development for the better part of a decade already. The last-minute jump from PS3 to PS4 has probably set development back a long way.

As for the rest of the upcoming heavy hitters, it remains to be seen how many are being built with the next gen in mind, and how many are just current gen games with nicer lighting.

[system11]

Doesn't the bullshit Microsoft embargo end tomorrow? That's when we'll start to see Xbone game reviews coming in.

Looking forward to sailing the high seas in Black Flag, shame Europe has to wait until the 29th for the console to come out.

[No_not_like_Quake]

Doesn't the bullshit Microsoft embargo end tomorrow? That's when we'll start to see Xbone game reviews coming in.

Looking forward to sailing the high seas in Black Flag, shame Europe has to wait until the 29th for the console to come out.

I figure I'll be getting my console around then, since I didn't pre-order. If the system is scarce later this week. I only recently decided I'm getting one, since I had an influx of cash.

[replayme]

I have no doubt that the XBone and PS4 will do well. But has anyone seen the sales data for CoD on Wii U? Any third party who still wants to support the Wii U will think twice after seeing the relative failure of a AAA game on Nintendo's platform. Therefore perpetuating the less sales = less support argument.

I can't see how any self respecting Nintendo Wii U owner will be happy with this news. Personal preferences aside, this cold hard fact is another nail in the coffin of the Wii U platform as a mass market concern. And it hasn't quite been a year yet since the console was released....

The Dreamcast lasted longer, and was in infinitely better health before Sega pulled the plug.

Edit: judged according to its present performance, and with curtailing industry, retail, and player support, I can't see how as to how the Wii U is going to carry on past early 2015. Based on the relative performance (and mainstream apathy and indifference) of the Wii U at present, it'll be dead by Xmas 2014. Maybe even by Summer next year. If Mario Kart (together with a ridiculous pricedrop) doesn't save it, then nothing will. But maybe I'm just getting confused between a pricedrop and the impending firesale when retailers drop it altogether.

Edit x 2: I don't even think Mario Kart is going to save the Wii U now. It might even be the console's last big game. The Wii U to all intents and purposes is over. It'll limp along like the walking dead, waiting for someone to put it out of its misery, and its death will also signal Nintendo's withdrawel from the hardware console sphere. With the level of risk associated with the industry now, and with the industry showing how little it actually need's Nintendo (hardware), they'll be absolutely crazy to come back with a new console. A 3DS successor that plugs into a TV: yes. But a Wii U successor? Madness.

Looks like that £20 CD player might be a better investment after all. And judging by present performance, it'll last longer too.

Edit x3: Rather apt that the Wii U was bundled with Zombie U, in that the zombie game typifies the fact that the Wii U has always been the walking dead. A few groans here, and a snarl over there. But always limping along at a snails pace. Waiting for someone, or Sony/MS to double-team it, and put it out of its misery.

[system11]

Dead Rising 3 article on Dead Rising 3 is out. We can dispense with the text and just have a laugh at the video. Woefully poor title by any standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKGmZLEEXWs

[charlie chong]

i been listening to loads of gaming podcast and i cannot believe how hyped up these "hardcore gamers" are getting for these systems.
all they seem to go on about on these podcast is how limited the time they've got for gaming and how they have such a big backlog of games to get through on current systems yet they are getting hype for generic crap like killzone and dead rising 3.
this is why i hate modern games journalists.half of them don't even finish a game before reviewing it and as well as being lazy they are too scared of being overly critical in case the game makers stop sending them free games to review.

[replayme]

It's why I'm not buying a next gen console till Xmas 2014.

But regardless of the quality of launch titles Killzone and Dead Rising etc, I'd still rather have them on the platforms, even if I won't buy them, as they go some way towards convincing punters that the consoles have a healthy library of games - with healthy industry support. Heck, I'd rather have them on the console, than not, as their mainstream success leads to more niche offerings coming out.

Besides, and having said that, Zombie U on Wii U was also a launch game. And that also looked like garbage.

Most launch games look like garbage.

[AntiFritz]

I have no doubt that the XBone and PS4 will do well. But has anyone seen the sales data for CoD on Wii U? Any third party who still wants to support the Wii U will think twice after seeing the relative failure of a AAA game on Nintendo's platform. Therefore perpetuating the less sales = less support argument.

I can't see how any self respecting Nintendo Wii U owner will be happy with this news. Personal preferences aside, this cold hard fact is another nail in the coffin of the Wii U platform as a mass market concern. And it hasn't quite been a year yet since the console was released....

The Dreamcast lasted longer, and was in infinitely better health before Sega pulled the plug.

Edit: judged according to its present performance, and with curtailing industry, retail, and player support, I can't see how as to how the Wii U is going to carry on past early 2015. Based on the relative performance (and mainstream apathy and indifference) of the Wii U at present, it'll be dead by Xmas 2014. Maybe even by Summer next year. If Mario Kart (together with a ridiculous pricedrop) doesn't save it, then nothing will. But maybe I'm just getting confused between a pricedrop and the impending firesale when retailers drop it altogether.

Edit x 2: I don't even think Mario Kart is going to save the Wii U now. It might even be the console's last big game. The Wii U to all intents and purposes is over. It'll limp along like the walking dead, waiting for someone to put it out of its misery, and its death will also signal Nintendo's withdrawel from the hardware console sphere. With the level of risk associated with the industry now, and with the industry showing how little it actually need's Nintendo (hardware), they'll be absolutely crazy to come back with a new console. A 3DS successor that plugs into a TV: yes. But a Wii U successor? Madness.

Looks like that £20 CD player might be a better investment after all. And judging by present performance, it'll last longer too.

Edit x3: Rather apt that the Wii U was bundled with Zombie U, in that the zombie game typifies the fact that the Wii U has always been the walking dead. A few groans here, and a snarl over there. But always limping along at a snails pace. Waiting for someone, or Sony/MS to double-team it, and put it out of its misery.

While I agree with alot of it is you're saying. Why do you keep bringing up the wii u in an xbox one thread?

[HydrogLox]

i been listening to loads of gaming podcast and i cannot believe how hyped up these "hardcore gamers" are getting for these systems.
all they seem to go on about on these podcast is how limited the time they've got for gaming and how they have such a big backlog of games to get through on current systems yet they are getting hype for generic crap like killzone and dead rising 3.

• The term "hardcore gamer" has basically become meaningless because it has been used to describe any number of divergent "roles".
• Those podcasts are emitted from a vocal minority. Xbox One/XBL and PS4/PSN is squarely aimed at the mentality who purchases a new release this week and sells it next week convinced that they are never going to play the game again because for them a newer game will always have a greater entertainment value than an older one (hence no backward compatibility required - and no backlog accumulates). On the other end of the spectrum are gamers who purchase their console(s) based on existing games. They may not even buy a game upon release but wait until sales/bargain-bin time (they already have a backlog of existing games to keep them busy) unless it is a title/genre that is near and dear to them. Depending on the circumstances they may or may not buy used games. They may sell games but only once the perceived/potential entertainment value has dropped (In essence they tend to build up a backlog of games). All gamers exist somewhere in this continuous spectrum between these extremes - but it seems that many of those in the middle section (I don't want to miss a good game - but that new one is so incredibly shiny) also have the need to broadcast their opinion to the rest of the world either as "video game journalists" or bloggers. Public opinion as presented via social media only reflects the opinion of the segment who elect to use it. Many Xbox One/PS4 systems will be purchased (or not) by people who don't advertise they (in)action on social media.

[devilmanozzy]

PS4 wont allow resale of games after all?
http://www.neowin.net/news/sony-to-disa ... porting-it

[charlie chong]

i was just going to mention that
hopefully friendly can stick his console war up his bum now

[LtC]

PS4 wont allow resale of games after all?
http://www.neowin.net/news/sony-to-disa ... porting-it

That just means that you cannot copy contents of the game disc and sell copies of that. In other words selling pirated copies.

[system11]

i was just going to mention that
hopefully friendly can stick his console war up his bum now

Old news is old, they already clarified that it's an update to the ToS wording which has always contained this, it's not enforced and does not affect customers, only commercial resellers.

[Cuilan]

Woefully poor title by any standard.

I think it's very obvious that Dead Rising 3 is either rushed for launch, or the result of the developers having a vision that was way too ambitious for the hardware they have (and their lack of experience with it), or most likely both of those things. Personally, I've mostly had my fill of this series after the first game, so I've had little interest in 3 ever since it was announced (and still feel that way). However, most of the "hate" 3 has been getting lately comes off as rather hyperbolic and ignores both the history of the series and what 3 is offering.

Dead Rising 1 looked like an upscaled PS2 game, and the only thing technically impressive about it was the number of zombies on screen. Both Dead Rising 1 and 2 consisted of relatively small zones separated by loading screens, and the number of polygons on screen in both of those games is clearly far lower than what Dead Rising 3 is pushing (they both also suffered from drops in framerate). Not only does Dead Rising 3 have a higher poly-count, but it also has a far more massive and fully open world with no loading screens, and a greater focus on vehicles, while pushing the number of zombies on screen even further than Dead Rising 2 did and pushing the weapon crafting system further as well.

[Cuilan]

I got the chance to use the PS4 a couple of weeks ago at a local Sony store.

The controller feels pretty nice overall, a definite step up from the PS3's. D-pad feels better (though not as good as the Vita's), analogs feel better and have a nice anti-slip shape, and the R2/L2 triggers feel better than the PS3 ones (but not as good as the 360's).

As for the console itself, I'm still not much of a fan of its shape. It looks alright horizontally after seeing it in person, but I just wish the back wasn't angled.

The only playable demo of a retail game that was on it was Knack, and it seemed extremely average in just about every way. If the demo is a good indication of the full game, expect a very bare-bones, simplistic beat'em up with almost no challenge, and very linear levels with few enemies. I think the demo actually crashed on me, unless it was supposed to kick me back out to the UI all of a sudden without any warning.

[devilmanozzy]

Old news is old, they already clarified that it's an update to the ToS wording which has always contained this, it's not enforced and does not affect customers, only commercial resellers.

Sorry about that, but I hadn't seen anything about this in either this thread or the X-Box 1 thread. I admit through, that I am not super excited about either system anyways. I don't see a future for Shmup fans on the big consoles, and I'm pretty much prefer Steam.

[Friendly]

i was just going to mention that
hopefully friendly can stick his console war up his bum now

Bon appétit.

[brentsg]

Why are you back trying to stoke your console war back up? Weren't you banned for that once already?