What's your critera to tell a good shmup from a bad one?

[SuperSoaker360]

Does it have big flashy numbers?
and does it have lolis

[Cagar]

Main things:
-Visible player hitbox
-Very visible bullets (bright colors, glow, no garegga bullshit)
-20-30 minutes long runs (no loops, unless the game has only few stages)
-Scoring mechanics that happen "naturally" and don't need lots of routing to get a good score
-No stage hazards or enemies that will ram you easily
-No unfair situations (ramming enemies or surprise bullets from point-blank range, no bullet-walls)
-The harder it is to memorize, the better (messy stage design, no organized touhou-like stages

Smaller bonus-details like:
-Fast player shots
-Fast & slow moving (ie dodonpachi laser & shot)
-No limited special weaponry
-No forced bombs (or hypers or kakusei)
- - -aka No impossible patterns
-5-7 stages with bosses
-Boss health bars visible


Pretty much CAVE stuff.
The list might seem big at first, but once you start thinking of games that fill these requirements, these are pretty much the 'standard'

EDIT:

Everything counts. You can't just come up with a checklist of things that you need to cover in order to have a good shmup.

This is right, even I didn't list everything, as the list would be endless and some things are impossibly hard to describe. (Like what a good stage design means in my opinion, graphics etc.)

EDIT2: Zenegku, banned?

[dunpeal2064]

Damn Cagar

If that was the "standard", I think DDP, DOJ, Ketsui, Garegga, and Batrider would be a tad less popular.

What Cave games even make your cut?

[Cagar]

Damn Cagar

If that was the "standard", I think DDP, DOJ, Ketsui, Garegga, and Batrider would be a tad less popular.

What Cave games even make your cut?

I'll list a few games quick:
Espgaluda 2, Dodonpachi saidaioujou, Mushihimesama, Mushihimesama futari, Crimzon clover, Exceed 3rd jade penetrate, Jamestown, lots of touhou fangames, lots and lots and lots of doujins
I'd say all of the new generation cave games make the cut (or come VERY close, like ddp dfk)
Sorry if the use of word 'standard' made you so confused, I was talking about the standard of modern bullet hell shmups.
I'd like to see your list instead of nitpicking about someone else's list. It's just other people's opinions, a thing that you should've learned to NOT care about at the tutorial of the Internet.

Also, I'm not saying that DOJ or ketsui is a bad game. I've got over 600 hours of doj played in mame (but most of it is idle-time), and I think that ketsui is overall the most polished cave-game of all time. Just because they miss one thing or two doesn't mean anything, as the core CAVE-philosophy is there, but just in older shell

EDIT:

If that was the "standard", I think DDP, DOJ, Ketsui, Garegga, and Batrider would be a tad less popular.

Damn man seriously, it's just my opinion, which has nothing to do with popularity of certain games. Yuughh

[dunpeal2064]

I wasn't nitpicking, I was just curious is all! It seemed like, from your list, not many Cave games would have made the cut, so I was wondering which ones fit your criteria. For example, I find Mushihimesama pretty unintuitive personally, so I wasn't sure if it'd make your list or not.

[Sarethums]

I agree with most of the posts here but for me what makes a shmup (or any game for that matter) special is when the game is how is was meant to be and at no point quality is to be sacrificed for a release date etc. Its the little things that mean the most to me such as options to TATE the screen, customisable HUD, if you play differently the game responds differently, an optional story line that is hidden away somewhere and not shoved down your throat (metroid series does this perfectly), plenty of modes to choose from; the more the merrier. A lot of people hate this but for me unlockable artwork, concepts and making of such game are great and really make me feel immersed in the whole experience. I used to like stats such as total enemies killed, time played, bullets fired etc, its cool to see sometimes but i wouldn't want to be constantly reminded.

[dan76]

Has to be fun playing purely for survival, the scoring is a very big cherry on top.
Generally I don't like console shooters as they're too slow, arcade games want your money and will try to kill you fast - this is good. It's why the 1cc means something.

[RoninBuddha]

lolis yagawa scoring system

[Kollision]

even though it takes a lot for me to dislike a game, certain aspects will obviously bring it down

lack of explosions, flare, punch, power
music that veers into annoying grounds
uneven difficulty progression
stupid and inexplicable difficulty spikes
scoring system that involves stupid or long-term milking, checkpoint-based included
abuse of unforeseen huge lasers and melee attacks from bosses
dodgy hit detection
monochromatic palette - a game being washed out, too gray, too green, etc

[near_miss]

Aw man, love this thread. I might be in the minority when it comes to criteria, but I don't think I play shmups to necessarily sharpen my skills.

For me they're cathartic, an escape. Sure I like feeling like I'm getting good at them, enjoy achieving a 1cc or high score, I will never complain about the thrill of that, but I think primarily what hooks me is:

1 - the Atmosphere, music, the feeling of an impossible mission - I love a game that evokes my imagination. I often come back to games just because I missed the music.

2 - Graphics - read: explosions. Psyvariar 2 I think has my favorite explosions! I tend to like 3D modelled games like RSG and Gradius V, R-type delta. While I've enjoyed geometry wars, it doesn't pull me in like a really glossy game.

3 - BOSSES. Imaginative and challenging boss design is a huge thing for me. Boss Rushes are even better! The feeling of taking down something that was once seemingly invincible is why I love to play shmups.

4 - Stage Variety - lots of enemies, variety of pace, moods... and yep, stage hazards... I like a game to keep me on my toes, and just as I think I've mastered it, to raise the stakes. I think stage design has a lot to do with building a game to it's highest point.

5 - Clear and concise overall design. I like gimmicks, if it adds to the game -- but more importantly, the controls have to be tight. The game should be tough, but still feel fair. So I second the forced bombing thing -- don't like that. I think everything should be achievable through practise....

6 - SOME Memorization -- okay, so no, I do not want a game that plays exactly the same each time, but I do enjoy learning and using the knowledge I acquired in a previous play through to analyze and find potential strategies (like boss fights -- I enjoy the progression of barely surviving, to pwning, to exploiting a boss's weaknesses). Not in such a way that you could play blind folded, but more like a progression of skill based on your knowledge of the game - not just twitch reflexes.

7 - Accessible Leader boards -- I do like to see where I stand after I actually get decent at a game!

[Xyga]

Oh and also: friggin SPACE !
Shmup = sci-fi / space opera

[replayme]

If I learned anything from games like Axelay, Einhander and Iuchi developed Radiant Silvergun, is that a good shooter has the following:

Good bosses
Good music
Good graphics

[Squire Grooktook]

I can't really agree with this idea that graphics and artistic design don't matter in these games, for me at least they definitely do. They are not enough by themselves to make a game "good" though. And what constitutes good graphics also greatly depends on the person so lets just end it at cool artistic design.

I don't feel the same way myself, though I can respect that.

My personal philosophy on the matter, is that aesthetics (art, audio, story), and gameplay stimulate two completely different parts of the brain.

For example, no matter how well you design a game, you can never make it truly "emotional" or "tragic" or "funny" through gameplay design alone.

On the flip side, no matter how beautiful your story, art, and music are, that alone will never make a game "fun".

Now ideally, you want both those sides of your brain fired up at once, but ultimately the lack of emotion doesn't really harm the "fun factor" of the game, and the lack of fun doesn't really harm the emotion of a game. You just have to choose in some cases which is more important to you for what you want to play at the moment.

For me personally, I have a pretty over-active imagination anyway, so if I think a shmup is pretty bland looking/sounding but really fun, I can usually just imagine what it would look like with a sprite swap, or just pop in a custom soundtrack.

[heisenbergman]

fun = good

Neither are good looks any criterion; and vulgarity, or at least what a given community terms so, does not necessarily impair certain mysterious characteristics, the fey grace, the elusive, shifty, soul-shattering, insidious charm that separates the good shmup from such coevals of it as are incomparably more dependent on the spatial world of synchronous phenomena than on that intangible island of entranced time where PoDD plays with its likes.

[heisenbergman]

Good feedback from the game (for example, damage rate and soundeffects that really make you feel like you are tearing shit up or that blinblingbling slot machine feeling from scoring well)

Probably my favorite thing so far from the thread is the mention of a game having good visual and aural feedback contributing highly to the enjoyment of it.

Coupled with moderately challenging difficulty and enough variety to prevent the game from being boring, having great feedback makes the game as a whole pretty exhilerating and a great escape.

[ACSeraph]

My personal philosophy on the matter, is that aesthetics (art, audio, story), and gameplay stimulate two completely different parts of the brain.

For example, no matter how well you design a game, you can never make it truly "emotional" or "tragic" or "funny" through gameplay design alone.

On the flip side, no matter how beautiful your story, art, and music are, that alone will never make a game "fun".

Now ideally, you want both those sides of your brain fired up at once, but ultimately the lack of emotion doesn't really harm the "fun factor" of the game, and the lack of fun doesn't really harm the emotion of a game. You just have to choose in some cases which is more important to you for what you want to play at the moment.

This is really just a personal difference between us I think. For me if both sides aren't stimulated at once then the game has only half done its job.

It's also important to understand that I personally consider emotional experiences to be fun. That's probably why Metal Black speaks to me so much even though the actual gameplay is really just serviceable and mediocre at best.

If a game is exceptionally fun but mediocre in the emotion department I would probably still consider it a good game.

Similarly if a game is emotionally powerful enough I may consider it a good game regardless of it's gameplay mediocrity. Not a shmup but Silent Hill 2 is a perfect example of this for me. The gameplay is nothing more than acceptable, but its such a powerful emotional experience that I consider it one of the greatest games ever made.

The question then becomes what matters to you most in shmups specifically, and I find it reasonable that most people would choose gameplay. For me personally though, I want both.