Question about backups and laser damage

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:03 pm

Do backups shorten the life span of certain systems. I know that CD-Rs on PS2 are bad for it. I've heard that CD-Rs on Dreamcast ain't so hot either(there's some debate on this).

What about PS1 or PC Engine CD?

fagin · Post by **fagin** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:35 pm

It can shorten the life dependant upon if you're increasing "strain" on the lens, this can be caused and to a certain extent minimised under a number of conditions.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:48 pm

If you want to use burned media on your consoles, make sure to use good media for both CDs and DVDs and use a good writer. I have never seen a PS2 fail, even after 10 years of DVD-Rs, as long as the user stuck to good media. Taiyo Yuden is recommended.

ApolloBoy · Post by **ApolloBoy** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:02 pm

If you use good quality media and burn your discs at 4x or slower (I actually burn mine at 2x), you should be fine.

matrigs · Post by **matrigs** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:31 pm

ApolloBoy wrote:If you use good quality media and burn your discs at 4x or slower (I actually burn mine at 2x), you should be fine.

Not always. In fact a lot of burners are having worse burns at their lowest speeds. I would recommend burning cdr at 8x and dvd at 4x.

A good burner can make a huge difference. I had a lot of problems using backups with a gamecube with a new but low-end samsung burner. I bought a used NEC 3520 and suddenly everything started working as it should.

SuperDeadite · Post by **SuperDeadite** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:33 am

Fudoh wrote:If you want to use burned media on your consoles, make sure to use good media for both CDs and DVDs and use a good writer. I have never seen a PS2 fail, even after 10 years of DVD-Rs, as long as the user stuck to good media. Taiyo Yuden is recommended.

You must be quite lucky. My launch PS2 stopped reading disks completely. And now my slim will only read disks in the horizontal position. And these are stock units running original games....

SGGG2 · Post by **SGGG2** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:32 am

SuperDeadite wrote:My launch PS2 stopped reading disks completely. And now my slim will only read disks in the horizontal position. And these are stock units running original games....

Easy enough to throw a hard drive in your phat and run OpenPS2Loader with Free MCboot. I modded the network adapter with a Startech IDE to SATA adapter to use a 2.5 SATA drive and it worked perfectly. The lasers are all going to die eventually...

ApolloBoy · Post by **ApolloBoy** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:29 am

matrigs wrote:I would recommend burning cdr at 8x

That's not real advisable for older systems like the Sega CD and PC Engine CD though, I've tried burning games at 8x before for those systems and it's a little bit of a crapshoot at that speed. For the most part, games burned at 8x will run fine but you'll get assorted little glitches. Burning at 4x or slower for those two systems is a pretty foolproof solution for getting good quality copies.

Sixfortyfive · Post by **Sixfortyfive** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:51 am

ApolloBoy wrote:
matrigs wrote:I would recommend burning cdr at 8x
That's not real advisable for older systems like the Sega CD and PC Engine CD though, I've tried burning games at 8x before for those systems and it's a little bit of a crapshoot at that speed. For the most part, games burned at 8x will run fine but you'll get assorted little glitches. Burning at 4x or slower for those two systems is a pretty foolproof solution for getting good quality copies.

Like the person you're responding to said, a lot of burners and media have poorer results at their lowest speeds than they do at medium speeds in the 8x to 16x range. You can verify the error count on test burns with various diagnostic tools yourself if you're so inclined, and you probably should if you want to see what the ideal setting is for your setup.

A properly burned, error-free disc is a function of the burner and media, not the player. So if you're experiencing better results at lower speeds, then I think that's more likely to be a characteristic of your specific burner and media combo than the devices you're playing them on.

Lord of Pirates · Post by **Lord of Pirates** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:22 pm

SuperDeadite wrote:
Fudoh wrote:If you want to use burned media on your consoles, make sure to use good media for both CDs and DVDs and use a good writer. I have never seen a PS2 fail, even after 10 years of DVD-Rs, as long as the user stuck to good media. Taiyo Yuden is recommended.
You must be quite lucky. My launch PS2 stopped reading disks completely. And now my slim will only read disks in the horizontal position. And these are stock units running original games....

It seems pretty random to me, though my experience has been that fats are better (when they haven't been abused). I have a launch PS2 that I've fed all manner of media from perfect retail discs to cheap-o DVDs with loads of scratches and it plays everything.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:47 pm

Iv been burning PS1 games recently, you should only use Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs, and pick the ones that are not see through.

The lowest my burner can go is only x16 for CDs and they work fine.

I would like to mod my network adapter to use SATA for PS2, my current IDE drive isnt big enough.

There is a "Hard Drive Loader" in development for PS1 similar to the PS2 version. its called PSIO http://ps-io.com/
They have got SD cards working and people are currently beta testing at the moment.

matrigs · Post by **matrigs** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:34 am

brownvim wrote:you should only use Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs, and pick the ones that are not see through.

you see, again i am having the best burns with "crystal" disc like this one:

much better than the non-see-through version:

for dvd, i have used these for ages with very good results:

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:32 pm

Iv been using the retro black vinyl verbatims for PS1 games. I use the PSONE though which is meant to have the better laser I believe.

I remember years ago there used to be completely black writeable CD-Rs, even black on the underside. Cant find them now.

Lawfer · Post by **Lawfer** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:57 pm

Taiyo Yuden indeed is what should be used, but also non-Taiyo Yuden media manufactured at a Taiyo Yuden factory. Of course, you have to know which model to look for and you can only confirm it when you put in the CD/DVD in your writer and it says if it was made at "TYG01", "TYG02" or "TYG03". Taiyo Yuden manufactured some non-Taiyo Yuden CD/DVD model lines for TDK mostly, but also for Sony and Fujifilm.

Verbatim isnt very good, all the stuff you see now is pretty much not manufactured by Verbatim (Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation) themselves but outsourced to the random factories of the bumfuckistans. So you get varying degree of quality depending on the factory that made the CD/DVD, it can go from awful to bad.

At least when you buy from Taiyo Yuden, you know that it is "Made in Japan" at one of the 3 Taiyo Yuden factories and they are the ones that have the most compatibility with Sony consoles.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:45 pm

I will try get some Taiyo Yudens in the future, I have always read they are the best from people.

matrigs · Post by **matrigs** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:17 pm

tbh i have never heard of these, but this piqued my interest a lot. i used verbatims mostly because of availlability.

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:38 pm

Never heard a bad word about Taiyo Yudens, iv always used verbatims though, never had a problem and that's after experimenting with other cheaper brands.

Nam · Post by **Nam** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:59 pm

I remember years back when non-self booting backups first became available for Dreamcast. The data alignment was terrible. You could hear the laser motor moving back and forth all over the shop. Still got my original release JAP (or JPN as we say these days) DC, never skipped a beat.

Lawfer · Post by **Lawfer** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:29 pm

Verbatim/Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation wasnt all bad back in the 90s when they didnt outsource 95 percent of the manufactory of CD/DVD to some sweatshops, as a matter of fact their CD-rs were pretty good, though still not as good as Taiyo Yuden, for info Taiyo Yuden is the company that created the first CD-R in 1988.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:35 pm

Just out of curiosity, is it easy to replace a laser for these systems?

I bought a PC Engine Duo, that had a new laser, so I'm guessing it's not that hard.

I'm always worried my Saturn/PSX/PS2's lasers are going to croak, and when I look for someone to fix them, I'll just get the usual "it'd be cheaper to get a new one". I don't want a new one!

I'm sentimental with my systems. Especially if I got them as a kid/teenager.

antron · Post by **antron** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:08 pm

can someone explain the process or mechanism that leads to CD-Rs destroying the laser? I thought the power was controlled by a pot, can the console change it on its own?

matrigs · Post by **matrigs** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:25 pm

as far as i understand the issue, with bad media the laser has to re-read sectors more often which makes it heat up and in the end - burn out.

someone correct me if i'm wrong, though.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:12 pm

CD-ROM error correction is based on re-reading sections until you get something that passes one of the thresholds for errors (in CD-ROMs, data is encoded using error-resistant, easy-to-read patterns of grooves, and on top of that also with error codes in the data itself).

Failed reads, such as those from indistinct patterns of grooves the laser doesn't easily read, would lead to the laser being on longer than usual while reading, and perhaps the spindle motor having to seek more often than usual. However, if the laser is designed for constant reads (and they are, being derived directly from CD audio lasers which are designed for constant operation), I don't see why it would heat up when physically re-reading sections. Rather the motor and the related positioning devices might get physically worn out. It doesn't seem to be related to changes in the actual CD, since the problems are with the laser (power dissipation across the CD normally isn't enough to act like a disc is being burned). Perhaps somebody can shed light on this.

Of course, we have seen some lasers actually burn out on systems - the PS2 slims reportedly had this issue at least in the early designs. But that's based on the power actually being used with the laser all the time, and the related analog tuning of the laser's power to get more accurate reading. In normal operation the power going through the laser should not vary.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:25 pm

I've had success with burning various PCE CD-Rom2, Super CD-Rom2 & Arcade CD-Rom2 titles with the Sony 700mb based CD-Rs...tried burning a sample PCE CD title with an old-school Sony 650mb CD-RW disc with both PC Engine Duo-RX & Turbo Duo consoles & it wouldn't boot up whatsoever on either setup.

What's really odd about the Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire CD-R is, it'll hang at a certain spot on stage 2 with the ol' Turbo Duo but plays like a charm without any issues on the ol' Duo-RX. Strange but true.

There are a few PCE titles that bust the 700mb CD-R disc barrier & forage into the 800mb CD-R territory but those are rare.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

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