Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by BIL »

Image

Having recently picked up the Famicom version of Spartan X/Kung Fu (Master), and wondering WTF I was ever doing without it, I was suprised to learn there was a 1991 FC-exclusive sequel. I knew about the Gameboy one, and of course Irem's own Vigilante, but this was news to me.

A disappointing sequel on the whole, with a few neat ideas in need of a better game. Irem only published, apparently. The action is almost as simplistic but nowhere near as intense, and there are no further loops or higher difficulties to speak of. The much more lenient health bar and in-stage life refills alone would take a bite out of the difficulty, but it's the chronic lack of the original's deadly mixups and pincer attacks that really hampers this.

The much more varied and detailed environments amount to little more than new places for enemies to leap from before being swiftly KOd, until the final stage where we get a rail platform over a pit and some decently tricky enemy placement. Unfortunately this is followed by an all too literal underwater fight scene. At first I thought the game was choking, but nope, you're seriously fighting as usual underwater. Baffling. The weak final boss caps things off. I hit the "1LC for replay value" threshold almost immediately and coasted over it within the hour - not a fatal flaw in itself, if a game is at least gratifying in some way, but there's precious little engagement to be had here. It's not a particularly good looking or sounding game either, certainly not in comparison to the crisp simplicity of the original.

"Neat ideas in need of a better game:" the game adds two power attacks executed by charging down, SFII/Doki Doki Panic-style, and hitting Punch. Enemies in front get an MK-esque uppercut, enemies behind get an awesome throw I'm surprised I've not seen before in other games: a very nasty move which sees our man Spartan seize the enemy's ankle and toss them overhead to crash down squarely on the roof of the skull. Enemies felled by these attacks go careening off the screen taking down any others in their way, giving some satisfaction. It's particularly cool to chuck a would-be backstabber into the projectile user that's got you pinned down, taking them both out. At this point, rather than wonder what might've been, the logical thing is to play The Ninja Warriors Again.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by BrianC »

Spartan X 2 was one of those infamous games that almost got released in the US and was cancelled at the last minute. It was going to be released under the name Kung Fu 2 (maybe Irem US forgot the arcade game was called Kung Fu MASTER in the US). There's coverage of it in an issue of Nintendo Power. The reviews of it weren't that great, if I remember correctly. Most of them had some of the same complaints, especially about the game being too simple.

Edit: Wow. That Wikipedia article is lacking. No mention of the cancelled US Kung Fu II version.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by CIT »

You can get the arcade version of Spartan X for Saturn in the Irem Arcade Classics pack, although the NES game is actually quite accurate. What do you think of the spiritual successor Kaze Kiri BIL?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

CIT wrote:What do you think of the spiritual successor Kaze Kiri BIL?
Now there's another "what could've been" opportunity best not dwelt on too long, for that is the path down which madness lies.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by CIT »

It's odd to hear you recommend against dwelling too long on something. Not your usual self. ^^

Why not test the boundaries of madness by elaborating a bit?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Sparse "arena" style levels tend not to test the ability of the gamer to adapt to new situations, since (it's been a long time since I played, but this is my memory) you can just park in one place and hit the enemies. On top of that, there's no real feeling of progress except from level to level, and it feels cheaply made compared to a proper sidescroller.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

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CIT wrote:You can get the arcade version of Spartan X for Saturn in the Irem Arcade Classics pack, although the NES game is actually quite accurate.
I was considering making a topic about IAC! Do you know if either version (Saturn/PS1) is notably better? It's been on my radar for a while now, specifically for Spartan X. I don't really know the other two games at all.
What do you think of the spiritual successor Kaze Kiri BIL?
I'd need to give it another go before forming a judgment - I couldn't appreciate even a sidescrolling brawler as good as The Ninja Warriors Again the last time I played Kaze Kiri. The movelist and controls were brilliant, and I got that the plain level design was meant to keep the focus on combat, ala Spartan/TNWA. I couldn't say how successful that tradeoff was without replaying, though.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Skykid »

BIL wrote:
CIT wrote:You can get the arcade version of Spartan X for Saturn in the Irem Arcade Classics pack, although the NES game is actually quite accurate.
I was considering making a topic about IAC! Do you know if either version (Saturn/PS1) is notably better? It's been on my radar for a while now, specifically for Spartan X. I don't really know the other two games at all.
What do you think of the spiritual successor Kaze Kiri BIL?
I'd need to give it another go before forming a judgment - I couldn't appreciate even a sidescrolling brawler as good as The Ninja Warriors Again the last time I played Kaze Kiri. The movelist and controls were brilliant, and I got that the plain level design was meant to keep the focus on combat, ala Spartan/TNWA. I couldn't say how successful that tradeoff was without replaying, though.
Kaze Kiri is surely the most overrated ninja action game of all time. Imperfect controls, unbelievably bland stages (they're essentially identical save for extremely lo-fi and completely uninspired backgrounds) and zero variety. Its bosses are its only highlight, and they all fall under pressure rather than tactics, and your Halo regenerative health bar is stupidly exploitable.

Honestly enough to put a man to sleep. Super Shinobi 2 it ain't.

I did a full review for it and there's tons of other problems. Rest assured it has none of Spartan X's form, balance, or engaging challenge.
Last edited by Skykid on Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Played a bit more of Vice: Project Doom - easy to screw up at the bosses, but at the same time almost all of them die extremely quickly to a simple pattern. Don't really feel that the pistol and grenades are implemented as well as shuriken in Shinobi, except that I appreciate the weapon selection preventing me from accidentally losing a no-ranged run (too bad you don't get any bonus). Nice-looking sidescroller but a bit on the bland side overall. Batman did quite a bit of this better.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by drauch »

I've got to say I had high hopes for Kaze Kiri as well. I've only played it once, but I can't say it was very memorable. Very slow, monotonous action and pale backgrounds. The cut scenes still stick out, but I could probably say that for most PC-Engine CD games and my bias for everything 80s animation.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Skykid »

drauch wrote:I've got to say I had high hopes for Kaze Kiri as well. I've only played it once, but I can't say it was very memorable. Very slow, monotonous action and pale backgrounds. The cut scenes still stick out, but I could probably say that for most PC-Engine CD games and my bias for everything 80s animation.
It's a flipping turd. Everyone likes to beat around the bush just because. If it makes you all feel better, I spent a fuckload on it too - I'm just not afraid to shame the purchase by being realistic.
Ed Oscuro wrote:Played a bit more of Vice: Project Doom - easy to screw up at the bosses, but at the same time almost all of them die extremely quickly to a simple pattern. Don't really feel that the pistol and grenades are implemented as well as shuriken in Shinobi, except that I appreciate the weapon selection preventing me from accidentally losing a no-ranged run (too bad you don't get any bonus). Nice-looking sidescroller but a bit on the bland side overall. Batman did quite a bit of this better.
Interesting, I found Gun Dec to be anything but bland. It's a pretty nifty action platformer, it surprised me. It's free flowing and boasts good variety, and although not all your secondary weapons are too handy, it's nice to have the option.

Not sure I see the comparison to Batman, assuming we're talking about the Sunsoft game - that's a much more measured, obstacle navigating affair, as opposed to Gun Dec's arcade pace.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by BIL »

Skykid wrote:It's a flipping turd.
I thought I'd vaguely recalled Kaze Kiri attracting some strong opinions on this board. :lol: I don't own a copy myself, as I'd hope can be inferred by my not having much to say about it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Skykid »

BIL wrote:
Skykid wrote:It's a flipping turd.
I thought I'd vaguely recalled Kaze Kiri attracting some strong opinions on this board. :lol: I don't own a copy myself, as I'd hope can be inferred by my not having much to say about it.
I have a feeling you'd go through the same process that I did:

At cover: "Wow, this looks awesome!"

At intro: "Wow, this is going to be awesome!"

At 5 minutes: "This could be awesome (fingers crossed)"

At 15 minutes: "This is becoming less and less awesome."

At 30 minutes: "This is terrible, when is it going to end."

At 40 minutes: "For the love of god, let it end so I never have to play it again."
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Ganelon »

I'd say Kaze Kiri has some really solid controls, probably unmatched for a ninja sidescroller until Strider Hiryu 2. It doesn't play like a brawler (guerilla tactics break the game) so definitely don't go in expecting Ninja Warriors Again. I'm not a fan of the wave-based mechanics but thankfully, they never get too overbearing and there's more focus on bosses as the game progresses.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by BrianC »

What do you think of Vigilante, BIL? That looks like a better sucessor to Kung Fu than Spartan X 2 FC.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by BIL »

I like it, but again I've not played it much (arcade or PCE). I'm still nowhere near as familiar with the PCE's action library as I am with the FC, MD and SFC. Still lots to do. :smile:

Even then I'd call it a much better sequel than Spartan X2 just for putting up some resistance, and continuing the first game's style of simple punch/kick action given depth and challenge by enemy mixups. There's nothing happening in X2, a shame as the awesome charge moves and the last stage's rail ride both hint at an interesting direction. The other 90% of the game is a waste. That underwater bit really is the absolute limit, it's painful to witness.

What I particularly like about FC Spartan is that sense of perfect simplicity and challenge with instantly responsive control and zero excess or distraction, also found in Excitebike's arcade racing. Both are so beautifully functional.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Skykid »

Ganelon wrote:I'd say Kaze Kiri has some really solid controls, probably unmatched for a ninja sidescroller until Strider Hiryu 2. It doesn't play like a brawler (guerilla tactics break the game) so definitely don't go in expecting Ninja Warriors Again. I'm not a fan of the wave-based mechanics but thankfully, they never get too overbearing and there's more focus on bosses as the game progresses.
The controls don't work properly, so I really have to disagree with this. Certain moves are way too sticky to engage and roll together. The aforementioned Super Shinobi 2 and Ninja Warriors Again are far superior in this respect.

EDIT: Actually, didn't I get my Kaze from you Ganelon? :)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Skykid wrote:Not sure I see the comparison to Batman, assuming we're talking about the Sunsoft game - that's a much more measured, obstacle navigating affair, as opposed to Gun Dec's arcade pace.
Well, that's where the difference and the only call for "blandness" (I agree it's not bland overall) comes in. The level pace is pretty much a matter of just jumping down on enemies and slicing them with the incredibly powerful sword. Actually I think the weapon selection in both games leaves something to be desired for many ranged options, but in Gun-Dec it seems much more that you can just slash your way through the stages, whereas Batman seems to really have more need of his gadgets.

I like how they both have similar "3D-style" animated fans from the side view. Nice graphics in both.

Gun-Dec gets a nod for having sheer variety but those extra game styles don't add much interest most of the time (although I've left off at the centipede-like driving boss - that one's a challenge).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

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Skykid wrote:The controls don't work properly, so I really have to disagree with this. Certain moves are way too sticky to engage and roll together. The aforementioned Super Shinobi 2 and Ninja Warriors Again are far superior in this respect.
WARNING: A HUGE NITPICK "THE HYPER ANAL" IS APPROACHING FAST

There was actually one thing I found objectively better in Kaze Kiri's controls than SS2's: the dash input. In SS2, to run you have to wait until Joe hits the ground then double tap forward. This is a pet hate of mine in any type of game - really interrupts momentum. Strider 2 and Gigantic Army (excellent Valken-alike for PC) have the gold standard approach of the first tap being registerable while you're airborne, keeping things much more fluid. My heart leaps with joy when I'm kicking a new sidescroller's tyres and find it does this too! Hagane is closer to my ninja sidescrolling ideal of Strider 2, "absolute fluidity with potentially horrific consequences." (Hagane doesn't actually have double taps, of course, but that's one mechanic I prefer done perfectly or not at all)

I suppose you could say SS2's dash being tied to its invincible, super-strong running slash is a reason to keep its controls like they are, but I think Sega just slipped up on that polish detail - similarly to Bare Knuckle III fixing the special attack input so it'll register no matter what direction you're facing, where you have to manually turn around first if necessary in BKII.

TNWA's controls are simply perfect.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by drauch »

Just noticed the Spartan X discussion above. Are there some known differences compared to the NES version?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by BIL »

Just the title screen, AFAIK.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Skykid »

BIL wrote: WARNING: A HUGE NITPICK "THE HYPER ANAL" IS APPROACHING FAST
Lol, hyper anal. Actually I found Joe occasionally carries on his run if forward is held on certain raised platforms. It's intermittent, which doesn't help really. I actually outlined part of SSII's fluidity problem being down to this and absolutely bafflingly silly enemy placement - but as a game it's still far (far) superior to Kaze. There are so many errors in game design in that one, it's painful.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Ganelon »

Skykid wrote:Actually, didn't I get my Kaze from you Ganelon? :)
Nope, my copy is still with me. I rarely sell games since I rarely regret my purchases. I have nothing bad to say about The Super Shinobi II; they're both excellent sidescrollers to me. I'm surprised you'd complain about monotony and then mention The Ninja Warriors Again, which I feel has far less variety (although great music). Different strokes.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by CIT »

Skykid wrote:I actually outlined part of SSII's fluidity problem being down to this and absolutely bafflingly silly enemy placement
Don't know what you're refering to. You got an example for said enemy placement?

For me Super Shinobi II is the gold standard of 16-Bit ninja action. Everything in the game has a purpose.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Skykid »

Ganelon wrote:
Skykid wrote:Actually, didn't I get my Kaze from you Ganelon? :)
Nope, my copy is still with me. I rarely sell games since I rarely regret my purchases. I have nothing bad to say about The Super Shinobi II; they're both excellent sidescrollers to me. I'm surprised you'd complain about monotony and then mention The Ninja Warriors Again, which I feel has far less variety (although great music). Different strokes.
You find NWA more monotonous than Kaze? NWA is repetitive but brief, and its controls are exacting and don't stick. There's miles more emphasis on having to use said moves creatively too. In Kaze by stage 6 you're already cherry picking weaker bad guys to hit your tally and get the hell out of there, which is a perfectly viable option sadly.
CIT wrote:
Skykid wrote:I actually outlined part of SSII's fluidity problem being down to this and absolutely bafflingly silly enemy placement
Don't know what you're refering to. You got an example for said enemy placement?
Generally they cut off your rhythm. Sega designed it so they shoot projectiles almost off screen, so you end up being nicked out of your movement, which is frustrating. Options to rectify include walk and don't run, or just learn the entire stage by rote and telegraph your actions because you know which enemies are coming up outside of the play area. I'd say this becomes more obvious around stage 4.

The problem is the game is so easy you don't need to learn it by rote to get through it, unlike SS1, you can get hit by just about everything and still 1cc the game with about 7 lives in stock. Not an encouraging factor for repeat play, which is a shame. More emphasis on forcing the player to learn a perfect strategy would have been optimal.

It's preference, but on the whole I think I prefer Hagane owing to its better balance of challenge and reflex, and that it doesn't have those pipe maze and bomb stages slowing everything down.
Last edited by Skykid on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by evil_ash_xero »

CIT wrote:
Skykid wrote:I actually outlined part of SSII's fluidity problem being down to this and absolutely bafflingly silly enemy placement
Don't know what you're refering to. You got an example for said enemy placement?

For me Super Shinobi II is the gold standard of 16-Bit ninja action. Everything in the game has a purpose.
Yeah, I absolutely love SSII. I remember the first time I saw the horse riding level, I was just like "awesome!" And this was on one of those collections on the PS2, not when I was a kid. So, I guess they did something right to get that kind of reaction out of an old jaded gamer. The only thing wrong with it, is that the music isn't as good as SS. And that surfing stage reminds me a bit of TMNT IV a bit too much. It's just sorta funny.

Kind of off topic but on topic as well... I've been playing the heck out of Metal Storm(the JP version). But wow is it short. Especially after playing the Ninja Gaidens, Shatterhand, Vice, and stuff like Lickle and Mega Man. Even Little Nemo seems long in comparison.

Addictive though. I just wish it was about twice as long. It reminds me of an action game version of R-Type. The mech looks like it has an R-9's head, and even the backgrounds just scream R-Type. One of the ships from R-Type show up in stage 6's boss level as well. And being quite the fan of R-Type, it's pretty cool.

I still don't know what's up with the U.S. versions' colors though. An orange mech? Really?
I was thinking maybe they thought it made the mech more easy to see. But that's only an issue in stage one, where you have a white background with a white mech(in the JP version). But they changed the background to grey in the U.S. version, so this wasn't an issue anyway. I just don't get it. It's really quite garish looking.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by CIT »

Skykid wrote:Generally they cut off your rhythm. Sega designed it (or didn't) so they shoot projectiles almost off screen, so you end up being on top of them with no time to plan a strategy, and nicked out of your movement, which is hair-tearingly frustrating. Options to rectify include walk and don't run, which is boring, or just learn the entire stage by rote and telegraph your actions because you know which enemies are coming up outside of the play area. I'd say this becomes more obvious around stage 4.

The problem is the game is so easy you don't need to learn it by rote to get through it, unlike SS1, you can get hit by just about everything and still 1cc the game with about 7 lives in stock. Not an encouraging factor for repeat play, which is a shame. More emphasis on forcing the player to learn a perfect strategy would have been optimal.

It's preference, but on the whole I think I prefer Hagane owing to its better balance of challenge and reflex, and that it doesn't have those pipe maze and bomb stages slowing everything to a crawl.

Hmm, sounds to me like you're just complaining about the low difficulty. Yes, that would also be my biggest (rather only) complaint about the game.

Personally, I don't necessarily need tough difficulty to enjoy a ninja game. What's more important, is that there's beauty in playing the game well, in essence that somebody could watch you play it and feel like they're watching an anime.

Hagane is also an easy game, but it's much more based on memorization and knowing specific tricks for tough areas and boss speed kills. I do find the hoverboard sections slow things down as well though. Not that it matters much, both Hagane and Super Shinobi II are among the greatest 2D action games ever made.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by Skykid »

CIT wrote: Hmm, sounds to me like you're just complaining about the low difficulty. Yes, that would also be my biggest (rather only) complaint about the game.

Personally, I don't necessarily need tough difficulty to enjoy a ninja game. What's more important, is that there's beauty in playing the game well, in essence that somebody could watch you play it and feel like they're watching an anime.
I agree, and chiefly the low difficulty is my biggest issue. It's a balancing thing. You bumble through and finish the game for the first time trying to be ninja-like but failing because you're constantly being picked out the air in a most frustrating fashion because it's often impossible to preempt enemy locations and actions without prior knowledge. You've then 1cc'd it. Do you put it to rest and move on, or replay it over and over until you can can wreak the beauty out of it you referred to? It's a question of patience. Being good enough to flow like water through the game takes weeks of practice, and because there's no resistance you'll find yourself dedicating a shitload of hours to it.

As I said, it's a balancing issue. I prefer games like SS1 and Hagane that say sorry, no clear until you know exactly how these stages are laid out and how they work: and by the time you achieve it you've officially graduated to true badass ninja class. It's a better aligned experience.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by BIL »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Kind of off topic but on topic as well... I've been playing the heck out of Metal Storm(the JP version). But wow is it short. Especially after playing the Ninja Gaidens, Shatterhand, Vice, and stuff like Lickle and Mega Man. Even Little Nemo seems long in comparison.
Mecha sidescrollers are on topic here, I decree it. :cool: Ninja and mecha sidescrolling action games are my two favourite sub(subsubsub,etc)genres ever.

Have you played Skyblazer/Karuraoh, by the way? Was going to bump your NES topic to mention it, but it probably fits better here. Replaying it the other day I'd forgotten how much it resembles Ninja Ryukenden III (not NGIII), with similarly easy yet technical-feeling action, slightly floaty gravity and user-friendly wall controls. It's definitely a little too easy, but mostly because it gives so many 1UPs. A low-death run can still be pretty involving, and a no death one wouldn't be easy at all. And it's just a fun game to handle, very cool Hiryu/Osman-esque character. The Final Fight-style three hit combo is so satisfying to smack bigger enemies with and the flying kick is a masterpiece. Excellent graphics and soundtrack too. IIRC some of the staff from the NES version of Top Secret/Bionic Commando were involved... it's certainly a Capcom-grade sidescroller.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Yes, I have played SkyBlazer. Recently, actually.

I think it's pretty good, but the stages seem kind of brief.

About how long is the game anyway? I made it to the stage where you have to shift water around, to get where you're going.
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