Hardest games (again!)

[Squire Grooktook]

battletoads

One of the most overblown examples of "Nintendo hard" difficulty. It's only because of the Turbo Tunnel that it gained its reputation, and that's just raw timing and memorization.

I don't remember how hard the platforming was in general, but there were far worse areas than the Turbo Tunnel. Rat Race, Clinger Winger, and Volkmires Infernor are just raw as much raw memorization as Turbo Tunnel, probably more so. Made all the more aggravating by the time it takes to reach them.

[BIL]

^ is it worth suffering through though? Does it have endearing sega qualities? I liked the sound if it and I am a sega fanboy,which is why I bought it but never made time to get stuck in...

It does have an arcadey simplicity and challenge. Action is technically very basic but the demand for skillful mass slaughter and fast navigation give it a relentless pace (both are needed to keep the sword from eating away your health). On the highest difficulty level "Super," missing from the EU and JP versions, the sword is absolutely ravenous for blood and will eat hesitant players alive. Another thing missing from the JP version is the eternally gratifying dismemberment shots following a good chain-killing. Humanoid enemies just kinda flop over in JP.

Unfortunately the stage design is rarely optimised for this kind of action. They can be overlong and become slightly vacant-feeling until midway when enemy presence and platforming both get much trickier. Still a very good game overall.

As GP said it's pretty generous with save points and continues. As is, it's about what you'd expect from a good post-DMC 3D action game. Unlike DMC and NG, the hardest aspect here is probably its platforming.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Wizardry 2 is direct sequel to Wizardry, and if you get wiped out, you have to finish Wizardry 1 again, which is already fist-chewingly hard.

Wizardry 4. As frustrating as the early Wizardry games were, this is quite literally the hardest RPG ever made. Good luck beating it without a guide, let alone getting the super obtuse true ending. There is so much bullshit nonsense that can happen like basic thieves can steal items you need to win the game so you need to make saves constantly and be careful not to save over a game that's in a no-win situation. Hell, even getting out of the first room is obtuse you need to summon a specific monster that can cast a specific spell, get into a fight and hope it uses that spell, and leave the room while the spell is in effect. 10 times harder than any other Wizardry game, easily. I'm pretty sure that by today's standards it probably qualifies as unplayable, even by Wizardry standards of difficulty.

Nethack deserves mention... for not being all that difficult. It's a bit overrated in difficulty - sure there's lots of ways to die, but when you know what you're doing and know how to avoid those stupid deaths, there's pretty much always a way to escape any situation. It helps to know what equipment's useful when you get wishes and stuff, or knowing how to avoid death attacks (Magic Resist gear is your friend). The original Rogue game was a lot harder IMO, still haven't cleared that.

How does Bayonetta on the hardest difficulty compare? I imagine it could be even tougher if you're going for pure platinums (haven't played it so I'm just guessing here).

A lot easier. I've not played DMC 3, but I can pretty much guarantee Bayonetta is the easier game on NSIC unless you're doing something silly like handguns only, no accessories, etc. You get so many ridiculous toys to use that you can counter enemies (which is insanely useful for an accessory), or use the auto-attack on a near dodge accessory instead. You've also got Pulley's Butterfly which gives you invulnerability when it's active, which is insanely useful (you can keep it active for safety or use it to start combos, ignoring the first enemy attack that's used). It also makes PPs easier. As Banana stated, Bayo's not as strict in terms of time unless you're going for PP, or a couple sections where there's a timer. You've also got access to silly, broken stuff like PKP spam (used with dodge offsets you can pretty much wipe anything with Shuraba), Sai-Fung which has a crazy amount of stunlock potential, you can always tauntspam or stay away and peg enemies with bullets or Kulshedra to build up your magic meter, and in a pinch there's always the Durga Legs -> Onyx/Kilgore switch glitch that can do insane close range damage.

A better comparison might be playing with Bayonetta's super secret character that dies in 2 hits (one hit drops life bar to zero if you're at max health, next hit kills you).

Vanquish on God Hard has a couple of seriously rough spots, haven't had the chance to go through it yet but apparently the final boss can get really brutal, but there's a lot of advanced techniques like constant boostdodging (boost then immediately dodge, quick movement + i-frames with little to no meter drain) or HMG jump -> weapon switch (handy for jumping up and pumping a rocket into an enemy).

[Jonst]

^ is it worth suffering through though? Does it have endearing sega qualities? I liked the sound if it and I am a sega fanboy,which is why I bought it but never made time to get stuck in...

It does have an arcadey simplicity and challenge. Action is technically very basic but the demand for skillful mass slaughter and fast navigation give it a relentless pace (both are needed to keep the sword from eating away your health). On the highest difficulty level "Super," missing from the EU and JP versions, the sword is absolutely ravenous for blood and will eat hesitant players alive. Another thing missing from the JP version is the eternally gratifying dismemberment shots following a good chain-killing. Humanoid enemies just kinda flop over in JP.

Unfortunately the stage design is rarely optimised for this kind of action. They can be overlong and become slightly vacant-feeling until midway when enemy presence and platforming both get much trickier. Still a very good game overall.

As GP said it's pretty generous with save points and continues. As is, it's about what you'd expect from a good post-DMC 3D action game. Unlike DMC and NG, the hardest aspect here is probably its platforming.

Right,guess I'll have to stop playing shooty games badly and get murdered on this instead! I remember watching tons of yt vids of gameplay and reviews.time to check it out for myself.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Right,guess I'll have to stop playing shooty games badly and get murdered on this instead! I remember watching tons of yt vids of gameplay and reviews.time to check it out for myself.

I beat the US version on Normal (default) and it was hard, but I didn't find it frustrating at all. Once I got the hang of the controls and gave up on using the right thumbstick, that is.
I like the PS2 Shinobi, the first Super Monkey Ball and F-Zero GX (2001-2003) better than anything Sega is better known for (of games they actually developed).

[Fudoh]

The topic is so hard to answer, because the perspectives of your readers are so different. What's the point in asking US here when your average readers can neither make any sense of the titles you write about nor give 'em a try.

Just for sake of accessibility, I'd really recommend to go for widely available titles, at least with a few of the 6. When I read your initial question Völgarr the Viking was what popped into my mind right away. Certainly WE can beat it after a few days of extensive gaming, but for your the average reader a game like Völgarr already seems excessively hard, plus it's rather new and actually purchasable right away and it can be played on your average notebook.

[ciox]

If you're talking hardest shmups you don't need to go all the way to Pink Sweets, Garegga's Special mode (Harder+Extended at the same time) hasn't been beaten yet either, and it's been around since 96.

[Squire Grooktook]

This topic is liking asking what's the worst movie. Is it some actually "legit" movie that everyone's seen and hated, or is it some random homebrew foreign film that's completely unwatchable?

Other questions arise to, like is it really "hard" if it's just cheap? At what point does the game just being broken and unplayable stop it from being considered hard?

[GaijinPunch]

^ is it worth suffering through though? Does it have endearing sega qualities? I liked the sound if it and I am a sega fanboy,which is why I bought it but never made time to get stuck in...

I enjoyed it. The "tate" system (not the tate we use around here) is pretty awesome. So, it has a scoring system that is similar to chaining, but to me anyway, doens't have the gratification that a good arcade system carries, since you can redo stages all the time. Still good. I'd get it. What's it cost used? $10?

I beat the US version on Normal (default) and it was hard, but I didn't find it frustrating at all. Once I got the hang of the controls and gave up on using the right thumbstick, that is.

It's a doable game, but the last couple of stages will take a while, and the last boss is a total dick head. A large part of the game is to take your enemies as you take your women: from behind. And getting those back shots on some of the bosses is a bitch. I remember the last boss took me hours (days?) and to an extent, to build up your tate-chain I had to stab in the dark and hope to hit stuff. Oh, the memories. No way would I get anywhere in this game now, but it's definitely worth trying. Huge fan of the original. Factoid: never really go into Shadow Dancer. Maybe I should.

Kunoichi, also cheap, is in the same game but has an added acrobatic feature (you can jump mid-air as long as you land a hit on an enemy) which takes the platforming to new and fun places. I think purists like the original better. I played Kunoichi first though.

[Randorama]

@GP: you seem to be a connoisseur of !"£$ hard titles, so I am stealing some of your mentions.

My personal list...

1. The Combatribes
2. Either Pink Sweets, DOJ: Black Label, perhaps Ketsui
3. Either Youkai Chuudouki or Jigoku Mekuri (....Bonze's Adventure, right?). The extra version of Rainbow Islands or Fairy Land's story are very hard, too.
4. Either Guevara/Guerilla War or Ikari Warriors III.
5. The secret Spy or Crossed Swords;
6. Either B[lock Out or Klax, although the latter can be 1-CC'ed.

Some comments:

1. Once more, I can't think that somebody has ever beaten this. Other beat'em ups seem to have been beaten, instead;
2. I would go for DOJ or Ketsui, I feel that they have an extra edge of difficulty. I probably have a wrong impression of Pink Sweets, as I played it little;
3. Any one of the four mentioned is *hard*, but Jigoku Mekuri has a final boss that is irrationally hard. Hi final attack seems to be simply undodgeable. What the fuck, Taito;
4. SNK before the Neo-Geo could not design games that were not irrationally hard. I'd add the Athena game to the list in 4, probably, and possibly others;
5. BBH is not human, so don't mention his 1-CC of the super spy (ahem!). Anyway, early Neo-Geo games were also irrationally hard;
6. I want to see someone who simply has the stamina to play any level after the 60th in Block Out. My guess is that pieces keep increasing in complexity, so by this level the amount of spatial rotations that each single piece involves simply dry up brain resources, in the long distance.

As always, arcade-only because PCs and Consoles are for the infidels and the impure.

Contra etc.

..*facepalm*

[BareKnuckleRoo]

DOJ Black Label? Wouldn't White Label be considered much harder to clear (remember WL's second loop steals any extra lives you have, and you have to earn them by no-missing each stage, a death in 2-1 means gameover, etc)?

[Bananamatic]

WL is objectively harder than Ketsui or BL

hell, even the 2nd boss on WL is absolutely balls

[Ganelon]

I think I have an answer that most folks could probably agree to for this topic: Houdini 3. From what I've read, even the top chess grandmasters in the world (with tens of thousands of hours playing experience) can't compete under default FIDE rules.

All the top chess engines are similarly dominant but Houdini has had the edge for a while now. For folks who want to see for themselves, numerous older versions of these engines are available for free. The earlier versions are somewhat weaker but still next to impossible to win or draw for non-chess prodigies.

[Jonst]

Cheers gp & bil,you've convinced me to dig it out and fire it up!

[GaijinPunch]

1. The Combatribes
1. Once more, I can't think that somebody has ever beaten this. Other beat'em ups seem to have been beaten, instead;

I'm not familiar w/ it but when I was trying to find a few names that escaped me by Googling "difficult arcade games" in japanese, I went to a 2ch thread and one guy was like, "has anyone cleared Combat Tribes?" So yes, that is a valid candidate.

4. SNK before the Neo-Geo could not design games that were not irrationally hard. I'd add the Athena game to the list in 4, probably, and possibly others;

Psycho Killer is supposedly a bitch, right? I actually did 1CC Ikari and Dogousouken. The latter requires the sword, and if you lose it in a few places, you are going to get your pussy smoked. I still enjoyed it, and thought the difficulty was quite far. Guevara? WTF... just fucking stupid. On the first stage you have to inch pixel by pixel to get enemies to appear but not notice you.

Cheers gp & bil,you've convinced me to dig it out and fire it up!

Word! Can't wait to hear how it ends.

[Jonst]

Probably with tears of frustration!

[Obiwanshinobi]

So, it has a scoring system that is similar to chaining, but to me anyway, doens't have the gratification that a good arcade system carries, since you can redo stages all the time.

Every stage must be no-missed up until its bossfight. Would you have ever endured going for 1cc, even if the scoring rewarded it?
Super Monkey Ball also needs to be no-missed if you want to see the bonus stages.
Both games bare the kind of teeth Mario lost in 3D (got the voice acting instead).
What I practically NEVER see mentioned online is that all the best Sega games are designed to be played for maximum speed. It may not be always rewarded with bonus points, but I consider it their most defining feature.

Kunoichi, also cheap, is in the same game but has an added acrobatic feature (you can jump mid-air as long as you land a hit on an enemy) which takes the platforming to new and fun places. I think purists like the original better. I played Kunoichi first though.

If - having cleared Shinobi - you keep your savestate, Kunoichi is playable as Shinobi characters, using their distinctive mechanics.
I believe what makes Kunoichi easier to complete are mid-stage checkpoints (whereas Shinobi only has them before bossfights).

[ZaKa-tokyobassist]

Ghosts N' Goblins. Either version of it. Still can't beat it.

Mega Man Unlimited pre-patch was hard as nails. Essentially no checkpoints until you reach the boss room. Anything and everything in the game will kill you. It's well made but it's really tough.

Devil May Cry 1 on DMD was so hard. I know the strategy to completing it for most people is to replay the game multiple times to stock up on Untouchables before jumping into it.

Contra: Shattered Soldier was the hardest Contra by far. I didn't even know the game had 7 levels until last year because you have to get the highest rank on every level which required getting the Hit Rate (destroying everything in the level) to 100% and without deaths.

Anything from the actual mainline Shin Megami Tensei series. For an RPG (where difficulty to based on numbers and stats), it's really damn difficult at points. I remember a few bosses in Nocturne tearing me to shreds.

I agree with Shinobi on PS2. Jesus did that game piss me off. I swear there are points in that game where the controls just don't work and when you have such a sporadic interval between combat and shoddy ass platforming, it's a recipe for frustrating moments. I remember that was one of the few games as a kid that drove me to tears.

Those are a few off the top of my head that just struck me as difficult.

[Obiwanshinobi]

In the internet people's defense, here, underneath a typically "mainstream" review, is the one and only comment echoing what for my money Sega is all about I read online:

Nightshade, like Shinobi, has more in common with a game like Crazy Taxi or Nights than Devil May Cry. It's arcadey, really fast and tight, and essentially comes down to being about besting your results. In a flipper game you don't care about the ball doing tricks or.. changing colour, because it's about not letting it fall past the flippers, and racking up scores. The Tate isn't just for looks, it's the main game mechanic in this game, and the enjoyment comes from landing the big tates in order to get the biggest scores and getting to the boss in the shortest time possible with the biggest kill rate. The tate makes each subsequent attack stronger, hence allowing you to dispatch enemies faster. The locations are basic for you to be able to memorize them and move around really fast, not to offer objects and structures to get stuck behind or get lost in.

Not the usual fawning over blue skies and sound systems.

[ZaKa-tokyobassist]

One of the most overblown examples of "Nintendo hard" difficulty. It's only because of the Turbo Tunnel that it gained its reputation, and that's just raw timing and memorization.

Please don't try to downplay the game because it's popular. Battletoads is bullshit for many reasons besides Turbo Tunnel. Every level is essentially a different game with some reoccurring things here and there.

Arctic Cavern requires memorization but also execution
Surf City is horseshit due to the randomized landmines and the occasional wrong "skip" in the rhythm of your hops causing you to miss a jump that you might have passed every other time.
Karnath's Lair all but requires you to die and memorize. Plus a few tricky jumps that require precision in certain screens still make this a nightmare to play.
Terra Tubes is just terrible. The swimming controls are broken and one screw up outrunning the cog or otherwise leads to instant death in a most parts of the stage.
Rat Race requires you to do the running headbutt on the mouse on straight paths because he's way too fast. One miss and it's over.
Wingerclinger requires the "pause trick". Enough said about this poorly designed level.

Most bosses after Surf City have a lot of instant kill moves or start moving so fast that you essentially eat a Marvel vs Capcom loop.

Anybody that says this game isn't hard is a hipster. It's not the hardest game but it's hard and for all the wrong reasons. The Japanese version is infinitely more playable. Fuck difficulty in this case because none of it was fun past Turbo Tunnel honestly.

[ZaKa-tokyobassist]

Rockman & Forte is brutal, particularly when playing as Rockman who can't double jump or fire in 7 directions. I've owned the GBA port since 2003 and still haven't beaten King.

Rockman & Forte should've been a Bass spin-off title because the fact that King Jet on King Fortress 2 is essentially not designed with Mega Man in mind. If he does that fist attack it's automatic game over as Mega Man. I know people say Mega Man is the hard mode of the game but fuck that noise. They just never bothered designing the game being mindful of how both characters have to deal with sections. It's not even your fault you can't beat that asinine game on GBA because on top of being difficult already, you have screen crunch plus less visibility in a game with some of THE most unfair enemy placement in any game I've ever played.

Speedruns of this game consist of people running into shit.

[Bananamatic]

Anything from the actual mainline Shin Megami Tensei series. For an RPG (where difficulty to based on numbers and stats), it's really damn difficult at points. I remember a few bosses in Nocturne tearing me to shreds.

I played Nocturne only on Hard and it's easier than the original Persona 3 IMO. Levels aren't as important(Persona damage scales heavily by level), you have huge room for customization, control all 4 units and buffs/debuffs effortlessly wreck any boss. It just has that traditional SMT difficulty where random encounters can slaughter you with poor RNG.

In Persona 3 the solution is either RNG(spamming statuses on a boss and hope it sticks, hoping the AI doesn't fuck up, hoping the boss doesn't crit the MC repeatedly) or just grinding. And you don't even have control over the movesets of non-MC chars. Apparently P3P is easier even on Maniac than P3 just because of all the new stuff that got included(teammates covering you from lethal blows, direct teammate control). The P3 difficulty is kinda artificial though.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Nocturne and Persona 3 alike require grinding. The difference being that Nocturne has got better dungeons, thus grinding is more fun there, but it is grinding all the same.
Nocturne, however, defies its own system during the very last (optional) bossfight - Freikugel pierces his physical resistance out of the blue. Uncool.

[Bananamatic]

Freikugel is physical based almighty, not physical. It doesn't pierce physical resistant enemies because it's not a physical attack to begin with. The final boss himself is one of the few enemies that resist almighty as well, which is why the Pierced message appears.

I did beat the true last boss on Hard at level 80 without the ultimate magatama, and the design is indeed pretty crappy on Hard. When you're buffed and he debuffed he can't do shit, but if the AI decides to cast Dekaja and Dekunda in one turn you are pretty much fucked. You can then either grind for a looooooooooong time for one enemy that is perfectly beatable at lv80(honestly all the super high level stuff in Nocturne is useless because there is nothing strong enough to warrant its use), or keep trying for less time at the same level.

I remember only grinding in two places in Nocturne - before Matador until level 18(which isn't really necessary if you have any null force demon and Rakukaja+Sukukaja) and a few levels at the end of the game until I got Freikugel. Then again Hard Nocturne has random encounters that are impossible to escape normally, meanwhile Persona 3 has on map encounters that can be all avoided. Normal mode in Nocturne can be beaten quite easily with some planning by fighting only the mandatory battles(which puts you at around level 40 IIRC). The level scaling there doesn't really show itself until you hit level 150+. Not to mention how late you get your first decent healing spells in Persona.

Did I go way offtopic?

[Obiwanshinobi]

If he resists almighty, then it's not almighty. That's bullshit.

[Bananamatic]

It is an invisible element in this game, it's just extremely rare that anything applies to it. Only Lucifer and Noah are resistant to it IIRC.

[Ed Oscuro]

Bit off topic, but Randorama's comment (didn't somebody recently say that Combatribes was easier in the US version due to having scrub enemies at the final boss, or something?) got me thinking about Vindicators for the NES (it's originally an arcade release but put that aside for the moment). It's quite easy normally. However, the (mini?) boss at 3-1 is driving me nuts. First, you have to understand that bosses don't die to normal shots (huh?) and secondly, you have to know that it bullet barfs tons of shots that, though they aren't carefully aimed, are still practically undodgeable because your tank is slow and you certainly can't get to a spot behind it. There are temporary safe spots that show up but I don't think many of them are useful.

The main issue I have with it is in the way it's apparently intended to be approached, by closing and retreating repeatedly while firing off seeking shots. I've tried this both from a new game without knowing that it was coming - with no investment at the store in extra seeker shots or shields - and with shields. On top of that, the "snipe" approach doesn't seem to work; I seem to have to close to short range and just autofire the hell out of it. The results seem to be about the same - on the few times I can manage to knock it out, I'm left with a very small number on the fuel counter (which is always a very, very bad thing, because that means you're seconds from dying), regardless of whether I went to it with just fuel and no shields, or whether I had bought 10 shields beforehand.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The P3 difficulty is kinda artificial though.

Frankly I think P3 and P4 are silly. They made some idiotic plot reason why you get a gameover if one of the MCs is killed, but with all the stuff that randomly throws out death attacks and crits everywhere, that just seems silly. P2 did it way better. I don't like having a team where one person needs protecting, but it's impossible to do anything to protect them aside from hope nothing hits (or do P4's social links that can protect MC from a death when they're levelled enough).

It's not even like one of the SMT games where your humans are demon summoners, that at least makes sense that if both your human characters are wiped their summons go...

[spadgy]

Right - finally catching up with this. I'll just read through, and then come back here with an edit to answer some questions.

EDIT: Well, thank you so much. Some great suggestions, and you raise some great points about the angle of the piece.

- I'd certainly like it to be officially released games, rather than hacks.
- I'd like to balance obscure and available. This is in the tech section of the paper, and my editors tell me to assume a little bit of subject savvy. If I can introduce readers to a few new games, and remind them of one they might have in the back of a cupboard, lovely!
- I recognise this piece can't be perfect. It's all very objective, and there's so many criteria. But the aim of the piece in one way is provoke discussion when it goes online (much as it has here). Inevitably I'll miss out worthy games; inevitably people will disagree. Hopefully that will prompt an interesting debate in the article's comments. And that means I can be flexible. I could mention one game's hard mode, and I could mention another game being trick as standard.
- I want to focus on games that are hard through good design, rather than being hard through being badly made. That said, one entry could be on the list as an example of how badly made game can mean it is hard.
- Fudoh makes a great point about the experience of a newspaper's readers, and I'm torn there. I think, however, that I shouldn't go for slightly less hard games just because of the readers.
- Yes, I'd like to avoid those mentioned too many times, but then if one were the best choice for the piece, maybe it should go on. (And some of us games journalists are good at games, I promise. I may lack great skills, but I know some games journalists with a pretty tidy Street Fighter technique or some amazing abilities at driving games! )

One more thing - I'm keen for one game from the last year or so to make the list. Something available in PAL land, perhaps. A mainstream console release? There was some triple-A release about a year back that everybody banged on about how hard it was. Wish I had more details, but all I've got is a vague feel for what the title sounded like!

EDIT: It was Dark Souls. Was that really that tough?

Oh - actually, perhaps Super Meat Boy would be a good recent, mainstream game for the list.

[Bananamatic]

Frankly I think P3 and P4 are silly. They made some idiotic plot reason why you get a gameover if one of the MCs is killed, but with all the stuff that randomly throws out death attacks and crits everywhere, that just seems silly. P2 did it way better. I don't like having a team where one person needs protecting, but it's impossible to do anything to protect them aside from hope nothing hits (or do P4's social links that can protect MC from a death when they're levelled enough).

It's not even like one of the SMT games where your humans are demon summoners, that at least makes sense that if both your human characters are wiped their summons go...

Not even that, here is how the healing AI in P3 works:

Full party healing spells are used only if 2+ characters are <50% HP(even if the boss has a full party attack that does more than that)
Poisoned characters are ALWAYS given healing priority(even if they are at near full HP, then the poison hits them next turn and the cycle repeats)
If the MC is charmed, zero priority is given to removing the status despite the battle now being on complete autopilot
The AI tends to heal characters rather than remove poison

In other words, in Hard mode where enemy status spells have higher success rate, a single Poison Mist completely breaks the AI, causing them to heal the poisoned characters at 90% HP every turn rather than the critical HP MC. And if the MC gets charmed, cross your fingers. Or better get grinding for those status immunity items.

Getting them to cast the correct buffs on the correct person is also a giant pain in the ass.