Hardest games (again!)

[spadgy]

I know this an old discussion point, but I need a fresh take on it. Once a month I write a gaming 'top 6' for UK national newspaper The Observer. It's a little list feature, pretty short, and then an extended version (still the same top 6) appears online on the website of sister paper The Guardian.

Previously I've done the likes of 'top 6 game romances', 'top 6 game sequels', and 'top 6 unusual genres', for example.

For the December piece, I'm doing 'top 6 hardest games', and I thought that rather than decide purely by myself, I would turn to the one group that know tough games better than most… my shmup fam'! (That's you lot).

So, what games are really, truly tough? We can go to any genre, obscure, from anywhere in the world, indie, triple-A, arcade, anything. Ideally, I'd like games from six different genres, and a mix of mainstream and unusual titles. Only game series I can't do is Dodonpachi, as I squeezed that in the very same section of the paper last month, so it's really off the list for the following month.

Any suggestions with reasons would be great, as I'd love to hear games from you guys, because the wider the pool of input, the better.

And, of course, you can use this as an opportunity to moan that us games journalists are so lazy they won't even come up with six game names on their own.

[cools]

Pink Sweets. Though it'd be far cooler to see Ibara in UK print.

[KAI]

Beatmania IIDX is hard, really hard.

[Neathyr]

Is it a viable option to include games that can get really tough when you play them under several restrictions? Or do you only mean those games that are hard by nature (i.e. an aggressive, well-designed enemy A.I., complex stage/attack patterns, levels that demand considerable skill from the player in order to avoid environmental hazards...)?

[spadgy]

I was thinking games that are hard as standard, but your question is interesting. What kind of restrictions do you mean?

And thanks for the suggestions so far! Perfect!

[Bananamatic]

Devil May Cry 3 on DMD difficulty

The only hardest mode I never beat and I smashed my controller playing it(it was old though and the analog sticks pretty much broken already)
Enemies have a fuckton of HP(and I mean a fuckton), do an assload of damage, and if you don't kill them fast enough, they Devil Trigger, take even less damage, stagger less, and hurt you more. You NEED to kill fast.

You literally need all the damn tricks to beat it without spamming items, cancel combos are pretty much required to get rid of stuff before it Devil Triggers and it's very timing/button input heavy.

God Hand hard? Mash square for bosses, basic HSK cancels go a long way and are easy to do, manage resources for the actually difficult parts. Difficult, but with very basic controls.
Dark Souls? It's just punishing, the gameplay itself is very basic with no real tricks. Don't even put in Dark Souls, it requires no actual skills that take a while to learn. It just kicks you in the balls for small mistakes and then hits you from the behind with a baseball bat.
DMC3 DMD? I hope you are good at fighting games and love learning frame perfect moves.

And on top of all that, the camera is completely ass. Got to mission 4 once and gave up. Ridiculous game. And that's with the free checkpoints, playing on Yellow Orb mode is pretty much hell.

[MX7]

Pink Sweets would be a good contender for hardest STG, and therefore must rank as one of the hardest games ever. You could also mention the batshit insane soundtrack and creepy fetishised costumes as being further barriers, as well as completely breaking every STG rule ever.

Wizardry 2 is direct sequel to Wizardry, and if you get wiped out, you have to finish Wizardry 1 again, which is already fist-chewingly hard.

Cheetahmen is a good example of a game that's hard because it's so badly made. It has considerable cult appeal because of its camp nature and pretty awesome soundtrack.

Lighthouse is a mid-90s point and click by Sierra that is just obnoxiously hard, even by point and click standards. No idea how you could finish it without a walk though. There's lots of getting in unwinnable situations without the game actually telling you as such. Very pretty though, with some pioneering use of motion capture.

Those Super Mario hacks might be good to mention as a familiar curio. Pretty sure most of them require save states to finish, which makes them good for TAS players.

Dai Ou Jou Death Label has only been 2-ALLd by one (confirmed) player, and it took him 7 years to do it. Pretty sure it was coded as some kind of joke. He also does this awesomely nerdy Tim Henman-esque fistpump after beating it.

[Ruldra]

Too bad you can't mention DDP because Daioujou Death Label is the absolute hardest thing in existence. The fact that only a single guy beat it, and it took him 7 years to do so, shows how hard it is.

Random picks:

Beat-em-up
Armored Warriors

Roguelike
ADOM (seasoned NetHack players take years to beat this one)
IVAN (This one was made specifically to not be beatable, but some people did it anyway. Sadly development stopped back in 2005)

Indie
I Wanna Be The Guy
La Mulana

Shmup
Ketsui
Gunbird 2

Platformer
Kid Chameleon

Will post more if I can think of other games.

[CStarFlare]

Pink Sweets would be a good contender for hardest STG, and therefore must rank as one of the hardest games ever. You could also mention the batshit insane soundtrack and creepy fetishised costumes as being further barriers, as well as completely breaking every STG rule ever.

Is PS hardest-tier with rank contol? I remember EOJ comparing a scoring clear to a DOJ 2-all, but that kind of play isn't going to utilize a lot if renal control.

[Bananamatic]

Is PS hardest-tier with rank contol? I remember EOJ comparing a scoring clear to a DOJ 2-all, but that kind of play isn't going to utilize a lot if renal control.

Keep in mind that no really good players on this forum even touched Pink Sweets yet.because it's shit
No way in hell it's the hardest shmup, lol

[Ruldra]

Devil May Cry 3 on DMD difficulty

How does Bayonetta on the hardest difficulty compare? I imagine it could be even tougher if you're going for pure platinums (haven't played it so I'm just guessing here).

[Neathyr]

I was thinking games that are hard as standard, but your question is interesting. What kind of restrictions do you mean?

And thanks for the suggestions so far! Perfect!

Resident Evil 4 is a worthy title to fit this criteria. Under normal circumstances, the game is piss easy (especially because you can just shoot enemies until they drop dead, without taking advantage of its combat system). However, when you handcap yourself, things can get really interesting. Here's a fun one:

- Professional difficulty
- No damage
- Knife/non-upgraded Handgun ONLY, with the knife being your main weapon
- No Merchant interaction at all. Kill him whenever you get the chance, because it triggers difficulty adjustment (makes the game a little bit harder. Same goes when you kill an animal).
- EVERYTHING must be killed, except for infinitely respawning enemies in certain areas. Kill every animal you come across.
- Yellow herbs are not allowed
- No retries
- No glitches may be used
- You can NOT collect money
- Typewriter saves are not allowed (unless when really necessary, at strategic areas)
- North American Gamecube version

Optional hardcore mode: Beat the game under the aforementioned rules on a single-segment.

I specify the NA GC version because the knife deals way less damage than on the other versions (all weapons were rebalanced when Capcom ported the game to PS2), making it slightly harder. Not to mention the fact that this specific version gives you less ammo than usual.

Still haven't seen anyone on Youtube going for this crazy run. Spiralout's (one of the best RE4 players on the world) is the closest to reach that goal, but even then, he broke some of his own rules (like killing 2nd form Mendez with a glitch). In fact, these rules are a more extreme variation of his run: I just added/modified a few things.
I've been meaning to do it since last year, but I always end up playing something else between a few segments (game is way too fucking long) and drop it, or my run gets fucked up somehow. But I'll do it... eventually.

[Bananamatic]

How does Bayonetta on the hardest difficulty compare? I imagine it could be even tougher if you're going for pure platinums (haven't played it so I'm just guessing here).

Haven't played it either, did some searching though

Apparently it's not as hard as DMC3 DMD, some also claim God Hand hard to be harder than any DMC. It requires a whole different skillset though, enemies telegraph their attacks less(some are pretty much instant on Hard), but you can take it slowly and it's not combo based.

Reflexes are an easier skill to train than button inputs though, unless you play fighters you are pretty much bound to suck at the latter.
Someone also mentioned Vanquish on God Hard, never played that game though

[HydrogLox]

For the December piece, I'm doing 'top 6 hardest games', and I thought that rather than decide purely by myself, I would turn to the one group that know tough games better than most… my shmup fam'! (That's you lot).

Have you already surveyed any existing "Top N most difficult video games"? Do your choices have to stand up against common choices? For example, these titles seem to keep being mentioned:

• Ninja Gaiden Black
• Demon's Souls
• MegaMan
• Contra
• Battletoads
• Ghost N' Goblins

How do your choices stack up?

[Obiwanshinobi]

From what I read, not many folks finished Project I.G.I., although I don't know the details.

[Bananamatic]

Are you going to do 1 game per type/genre? Else it would be all arcade stuff

[Skykid]

Eternal Champions

[MX7]

Is PS hardest-tier with rank contol? I remember EOJ comparing a scoring clear to a DOJ 2-all, but that kind of play isn't going to utilize a lot if renal control.

Keep in mind that no really good players on this forum even touched Pink Sweets yet.because it's shit
No way in hell it's the hardest shmup, lol

Has anyone cleared Extended without glitching the game? Watching even 1-ALL no infinite lives clears there's some crazily punitive rank control going on.

It's the only STG I know of which has a mode that NO ONE has finished without cheating.

[Skykid]

Body Blows (Amiga).

[Bananamatic]

It's the only STG I know of which has a mode that NO ONE has finished without cheating.

What about 2 loop Dimahoo

[Skykid]

Hokuto no Ken (MD) / Last Battle

Ikari Warriors (NES port)

[MX7]

It's the only STG I know of which has a mode that NO ONE has finished without cheating.

What about 2 loop Dimahoo

What about 2 loop Dimahoo

[drauch]

I wouldn't recommend "X game on X difficulty." That broadens it wayyyy too much. I'm sure you're looking for something that's difficult at a Normal setting, right?

One game that always got me: Back to the Future 3 on Genesis. Getting past the first level is mind boggling.

[Bananamatic]

I wouldn't recommend "X game on X difficulty." That broadens it wayyyy too much. I'm sure you're looking for something that's difficult at a Normal setting, right?

Then we'd end up with a bunch of ancient 2D kusoge because nothing is hard on Normal

[spadgy]

This is amazing people - thanks so much. I will feedback shortly, but for now I'll let them continue to roll in, because as soon as I post now, there's already more!

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Is PS hardest-tier with rank contol? I remember EOJ comparing a scoring clear to a DOJ 2-all, but that kind of play isn't going to utilize a lot if renal control.

Keep in mind that no really good players on this forum even touched Pink Sweets yet.because it's shit
No way in hell it's the hardest shmup, lol

Has anyone cleared Extended without glitching the game? Watching even 1-ALL no infinite lives clears there's some crazily punitive rank control going on.

It's the only STG I know of which has a mode that NO ONE has finished without cheating.

No clears of Extended without infinite lives. I do think it's theoretically possible, but a death pretty much anywhere in loop 2 would likely mean you'd need to reset. Even entering the loop a low power would probably be reset worthy.

For the hardest thing that's actually been beaten, it has to be Futari Ultra or SDOJ Inbachi. Also DOJ Death Label.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Of adventure games I've played to completion, Another World had the least penetrable puzzles.

[Jonst]

Project x on the amiga? Surely it's impossible without cheats! Or maybe anything on the amiga come to that,old computer games wern't designed to be completed!

[Neathyr]

Those Super Mario hacks might be good to mention as a familiar curio. Pretty sure most of them require save states to finish, which makes them good for TAS players.

Pretty sure those wouldn't count, since they are not official releases. Still, I'd be curious to meet the person who can clear this without using save states.

[CStarFlare]

It's the only STG I know of which has a mode that NO ONE has finished without cheating.

What about 2 loop Dimahoo

I've never heard anything of Great Mahou 2 loop mode other than the fact that it exists.

IIRC someone on Cave STG translated a post by someone who'd made it to the loop of Pink Sweets and declared it impossible without the glitch. But there's a 1.01 so who knows? It would be nice to see some footage of the loop, since I'm not aware of any videos or what if anything is different aside from starting rank.

I think games that are difficult/impossible due to bad design should be disqualified, but there's always going to be disagreement about what meets that criteria. Assuming Pink Sweets 1.0 Extended cannot realistically be cleared, should it be considered?