Bombing

[n0rtygames]

Neat little article I found last night on bombing in STGs. Interesting perspective, makes a few good points. Most interesting is the one about the limitations players will impose upon themselves..

http://paperdino.com/2010/03/05/player- ... -the-bomb/

[railslave]

Every shot on Chronoburst is looking like a bomb lately

[Cagar]

Pretty obvious and pointless article...

[DJ Incompetent]

Eliminate separate button bombs from videogames.
A majority of videogame players are terrible at using extra buttons where no in-game conveyance demonstrates their need or use.

- Activating bullet cancelling scoring/player mechanics invalidate the need for traditional bomb.
- There's community stigma against using traditional/Ikeda bombs.
- Bombs reinforce to inexperienced designers that it's ok to ignore balancing difficult bullet patterns.
- Players have unresolved dread when not using all bomb stock before a death.
- Most players outside the STG scene will not acknowledge bombs are available, even when continuously told about them.
- Bombs are often detrimental to a scoring run, so the type of players the feature is supposed to help ignore them while veteran players aware of them are persuaded to refrain from using them.

[trap15]

A majority of videogame players are terrible at using extra buttons where no in-game conveyance demonstrates their need or use.

A majority of video game players are terrible at everything. No reason to consider the "majority".

- Activating bullet cancelling scoring/player mechanics invalidate the need for traditional bomb.

Bullet canceling sucks and ruins difficulty. It's also much much harder to balance correctly.

- There's community stigma against using traditional/Ikeda bombs.

That's because "Ikeda" bombs basically ruin your entire run. "Traditional" games don't do this, they often have a very minimal impact on score. The stigma against them is because they either make the player feel like a loser, or they have a "startup" time (which is there because they're not defense bombs, they're offense bombs).

- Bombs reinforce to inexperienced designers that it's ok to ignore balancing difficult bullet patterns.

Partly agree. That's hardly a reason for good designers to not use them though.

- Players have unresolved dread when not using all bomb stock before a death.

As they should. That's kind of the point.

- Most players outside the STG scene will not acknowledge bombs are available, even when continuously told about them.

Again see my point that people are dumb.

- Bombs are often detrimental to a scoring run, so the type of players the feature is supposed to help ignore them while veteran players aware of them are persuaded to refrain from using them.

Only in a game where they are detrimental. Which I think is a shitty idea. Don't do it.

[mice]

In conclusion

Bombs are awesome.

Amen

[n0rtygames]

- Activating bullet cancelling scoring/player mechanics invalidate the need for traditional bomb.

Indeed. Which is why DFK powerstyle is the one I find the most fun. Same reason Ikaruga has its missiles.

- There's community stigma against using traditional/Ikeda bombs.

Yes. But you have to consider the design of Ikeda games. Bombing generally nukes your scoring. You're rewarded for hoarding bombs. DoDonPachi takes this to another level by rewarding you not only by hoarding bombs, but by overstocking on your bombs. This is the design of an Ikeda game. High Risk = High Reward. It takes a particularly psychotic and skillful bastard to make their way through an Ikeda game to hit that theoretical maximum score.

Also, when it comes to getting the ALL on the leaderboards - you can miss out due to not bombing, or you can just learn to love the bomb and let rip at the last second. As Aquas would say - To bomb is to live. If you're playing for score, yeah - of course you don't want to bomb in an Ikeda game.

- Bombs reinforce to inexperienced designers that it's ok to ignore balancing difficult bullet patterns.

I'm not so sure on this. It depends on the type of game you're going for. If your bombs create little DDP stars for instance and you have no chaining mechanics in your game that can be dropped by activating a bomb - you've just turned bombs in to scoring mechanics. You've also opened up the potential to enter the realms of perverse Ikeda/Yagawa hybrids where you can increase the rank, thus increasing the risk but then convert that in to score. However - I don't think that's something for an inexperienced designer or even an inexperienced player.

- Players have unresolved dread when not using all bomb stock before a death.

Yes. They should! Unless the player is confident that they can clear the game with a few well placed bombs and is doing a scoring run as previously mentioned - then there's no reason to hold on to those bombs.... unless of course you're deep in to a stage and getting close to an extend, I can understand it there but again - it's situation dependant.

- Most players outside the STG scene will not acknowledge bombs are available, even when continuously told about them.

Now this, I can't argue with. I've seen this time and time again on my own games whether it was on a test session taking my xbox in to the office, or a video someone has recorded. Unless you explicitly tell the player they have to push a button to do something - they will not do it unless they're a seasoned STG player who will be figuring this out on their first couple of practise credits. Muchi Muchi Pork is a good example of how to introduce the player to the idea that they must push two different buttons. You don't start with your Lard shot maxed out, but when you fill that meter you get a nice big puffy cloud that says "Hey, awesomeness is ready! Press this button!". I think more STGs should do this. A good dev recognises that most of his players will skip the tutorial..

Even if you put a fucking character select screen in front of them and the player goes "Okay, shot... laser.. bomb.. got it" - they will still forget they have these buttons unless your game teaches them to use the things in a context sensitive fashion. Casual gamers are stupid. So long as you can do this in an unobtrusive way to veteran players (or give them an option to turn hints off!) then your player is responsible. It is the devs job to guide the player. Can't deny that.

- Bombs are often detrimental to a scoring run, so the type of players the feature is supposed to help ignore them while veteran players aware of them are persuaded to refrain from using them.

I've highlighted the main issue in bold here. This is worth discussing in a bit more depth. There's this really skewed perception from people who only play Ikeda games with regards to Yagawa rank wanking. Now, in most Yagawa games.. you don't get hypers. You have bombs. You can partially fill your bomb stock up until you have a full bomb. A full bomb is more powerful, does more killing and generally the better option than spamming fragments. Why? Because bombing increases the rank.

Compare this to a typical Ikeda game post Daioujou. You have two resources at your disposal. You've got your bombs. These bombs, when it comes to scoring - they're practically like suicide buttons. You hit them, you let off a bomb and down goes your chain. You have to build everything up from scratch again. What you do, is spare yourself a life.

Now let's look at Hypers vs Bomb Fragments.

IKD. Hypers accumulate over time based on performance/positioning/player knowledge etc etc.
YGW. Bomb Fragments accumulate over time based on performance/positioning/player knowledge etc etc.

IKD. Hypers increase rank when deployed. Using lower rank hypers constantly will result in a substantial rank increase.
YGW. Increase rank when deploying bomb. Using lower powered bombs constantly will result in a substantial rank increase.

IKD. Hypers should be saved for points where it is optimal to use them to net the most score.
YGW. Bombs should be conserved and used in points where it is optimal to deploy them to net the most score.

What most people see as bomb spam in YGW games really - at its core - isn't too different from IKD stuff. In DDP, you've got your bees. You have to uncover them at specific points. In Futari you've got a space control game where you should be destroying specific enemies in a sequence to get the most points. In YGW stuff, you bomb at specific points.

I suspect part of DOJ's design revolved around trying to deal with the issue of having absolutely no survival tools at your disposal that didn't COMPLETELY nuke your scoring run - but retained classic resource hoarding high risk/reward gameplay..

</rant>

[trap15]

Well said. Don't disagree with most of what you've said

[nasty_wolverine]

- Activating bullet cancelling scoring/player mechanics invalidate the need for traditional bomb.

Indeed. Which is why DFK powerstyle is the one I find the most fun. Same reason Ikaruga has its missiles.

Have you tried DFK BL??? (if not you should, its great) I like how in BL if you choose autobomb, bombs are only bombs and your hyper stock is restricted to 1, but with autobomb off, bomb and hyper supply are the same, kinda like a Boper/Hymb (silly names). It gives a lot of choice to player, either use bombs or autobomb, and only focus on survival, or use only hypers for scoring. And even though its got bullet cancelling unlike DFK1.5 you can just rip out a hyper whenever you see massive amounts of bullets, only in certain places its actually better, preferably near a bee item to cancel right before the hyper ends to stars. Either way you will have to bump up the hit count for milking bullets and cash in the multiplier, which doesnt increase unless you turn on red mode. All of if does lead to too much milking in a few places, but hey, its not sitting in a safespot and milking, its moving around the entire screen dodging shit all over the place, timing hypers and hyper cancels, its a lot of work which takes a lot of practice.

I also like how the game handles rank. its literally at your discretion. just dont hold down shot + auto together and you will be fine.

[trap15]

its moving around the entire screen dodging shit all over the place

Amazing shmup gameplay

[nasty_wolverine]

its moving around the entire screen dodging shit all over the place

Amazing shmup gameplay

I wasnt talking about the bullet cancelling part but the high level milking part
Though, I do agree that covering you self with a hyper does look stupid in some places. But I did look through some high level replays and its only optimal for scoring in about one or two spots in each stage. Yeah, its too easy to abuse.
Besides, that trick doesnt work in strong mode "SUICIDE BOOOLITS WILL GET YOU", and you really need to move around dodging shit all over the place.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Indeed. Which is why DFK powerstyle is the one I find the most fun. Same reason Ikaruga has its missiles.

Ikaruga's missiles in no way invalidate instant invulnerability bombs, unless you've never touched Ikaruga in anything other than Easy mode. Ikaruga's enemies launch revenge bullets at you in Normal and Hard on death, and using your missiles at a poor time can actually just get a shitton of crap launched at you when you need to switch colours to dodge something else. I think using missiles as a bomb substitute on anything that's not Easy is a good way of getting killed, especially if your missiles cause bullet sprays to fire at you at a bad time.

If Ikaruga had actual invulnerability bombs, it wouldn't be so strict in terms of the memorization involved, where one difficult spot that would be a bomb in a Cave game turns into a multiple death leading to a potentially gameover roadblock. This part of the article addresses the issue well:

Another problem: Player A thinks boss 1 is laughable, and boss 2 is impossible. Player B thinks boss 2 is easy, and boss 1 is god’s punishment for an unjust world. Clearly the designer can’t just make both bosses easier, since that just reduces the game’s challenge to the least common denominator, and risks alienating both players.

Maybe you look over the data and realize that every player has, on average, at least one problem area. Maybe it’s not always even a boss. A challenge in the game they just can’t seem to deal with. What to do?

You could go crazy trying to smooth all those spots out, to try to make everyone happy.

Or, you could make your players do it for you. Imagine – what if you could give each player a ‘make one spot easier’ card, usable once, which would make one area of the game significantly easier. Each player would most likely use it on the spot that was giving them the most trouble.

That's because "Ikeda" bombs basically ruin your entire run.

Depends on the game. Futari BL Original or any DDP game? Definitely bad for score. Espgaluda, ESP.Ra.De, Progear, Mushi Original, Futari Original/Maniac/Ultra/God? Not really, at least not compared to dying, and in the ESP games bombing is often good for score when used properly (midbosses usually).

Progear is an interesting case where bombs are very useful for beginners as they last a long time, and really just get one or two of the max bomb bonuses and you'll have a big enough counter to get those extends to last the rest of the run bombing to your heart's content. Players who get good at the game can store bombs and take advantage of the gem cancelling which requires more finesse (and is frankly more interesting than DFK's, but in DFK you're not supposed to hyper much to score). You're still allowed to bomb twice and you'll get the loop as long as you 1CC, and in the loop, bombs really become crucial for getting through stages since when you're not at a boss, dying restarts the stage. It's a good game where depending on the skill of the player, the use of the bomb changes, but bombs never become completely invalid even when you're playing for score as even if you bomb late in a run, you'll still have a nice fat counter for the end of stage bonuses. Of course, max bomb bonuses give lots of points, especially for a 2x end of stage bonus, but unlike DDP, you have a really powerful weapon in the form of bullet cancelling that can get you out of dangerous situations whereas in DDP, you'd just have to bomb, so Progear ends up feeling much less strict once you're used to aggressively gem cancelling.

[AntiFritz]

its moving around the entire screen dodging shit all over the place

Amazing shmup gameplay

Yagawa at his finest.

[Cagar]

Yagawa constantly reminds me of suda51: a freaky idiot who got famous thanks to one or two success(es) and who doesn't fully think about what he does, and then his 'fans' claim that it's HIS GREAT UNIQUE DESIGN

[trap15]

Strongly Disagree.

[n0rtygames]

Yagawa constantly reminds me of suda51: a freaky idiot who got famous thanks to one or two success(es) and who doesn't fully think about what he does, and then his 'fans' claim that it's HIS GREAT UNIQUE DESIGN

Oh get back in your Cave.. bloody troll..

(That worked on so many levels!)

[n0rtygames]

Yagawa constantly reminds me of suda51: a freaky idiot who got famous thanks to one or two success(es) and who doesn't fully think about what he does, and then his 'fans' claim that it's HIS GREAT UNIQUE DESIGN

Thing is though (on a serious note) - didn't you even acknowledge recently on IRC that Cave were inspired by Battle Garegga? As per the French History of Shmups documentary that you linked as a source for this..

[Cagar]

Yagawa constantly reminds me of suda51: a freaky idiot who got famous thanks to one or two success(es) and who doesn't fully think about what he does, and then his 'fans' claim that it's HIS GREAT UNIQUE DESIGN

Thing is though (on a serious note) - didn't you even acknowledge recently on IRC that Cave were inspired by Battle Garegga? As per the French History of Shmups documentary that you linked as a source for this..

'inspired by'
as in
'have many bullets on screen'

also, not trolling.

[Pteriforever]

I have a mild dislike for bombs really.

I find traditional panicbombing to be extremely rage-inducing, whereas autobombing defeats the purpose of having bombs at all.

Although sometimes rage can indeed be fun, that's my reasoning for foregoing bombs in favour of similar but distinct mechanics in both of my games.

[Udderdude]

This is why I added alternate modes to XOP and XOP Black which do different things with bombs besides "Boom, everything dies" ..

Also why Zero Cross doesn't really have a bomb at all ..

[railslave]

I remember when they were called "smart bombs"

[Udderdude]

They were never very smart, were they? D:

[nZero]

Up until the 90's they were smart enough to kill all of the onscreen enemies without nuking everything in the background too