Castlevania SOTN epiphanies

[LoneSage]

Felt like seeing the ending of SOTN again so I killed Shaft, yadda yadda har har he's a black priest, then went on to father dearest..

Now here's the first epiphany. One of my favorite lines in video game history (and quotes of anything) came from Drac before he died: "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world, but loses his son? Matthew 16:26". I thought it was beautifully tragic that the father finally saw the folly of his ways, and instead of saying something like "I'm sorry I never showed you any love, son" recited a verse from The Bible, a book he absolutely despised, to apologize to his son...but alas, it was too late for him, and thus he died.

So anyways, kill Drac (never had trouble with the fight, ever...was about lvl 59 I guess when I first fought him years ago, not to mention I was equipped with the Crissaegrim...horribly anti-climatic last battle that ended in literally 9 seconds, but I digress), and here's what I read:

"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world, but loses his SOUL? Matthew 16:26"

I literally said what the fuck and just laid in disbelief. I had heard that same line easily a score of times before and doubtlessly read it, so why the hell am I now finally seeing that he never said 'son'? This is truly disheartening, and the ending will never have the same impact it did the many times I've seen it.

Anyways, 2nd epiphany: saw first minute of the credits and read that some guy (forget his name) was the Director and Producer, not Iga (who was just Assistant Director).

So herein lies my question: why the fuck is Iga given so much credit for SOTN when he was just an AD? You never hear anyone going "OMG the assistant director of the MGS series...the man's a genius!".

Someone tell me why the hell everyone is giving Iga so much credit for SOTN The GBA Vanias, sure, but this isn't a GBA Vania, is it.

Anyways, thought I should just expound on that.

Epiphanies, man. Never know if they'll be good or bad.

[BrianC]

The actual bible verse in NIV says "soul", not son.

[Ganelon]

I had an epiphany in 3rd grade when I realized that what I thought was Temco was actually Tecmo and what I thought was Capom was actually Capcom.

I'm afraid I read everything in SOTN correctly my first time through.

[Neo Rasa]

"IGA" is what he is because Konami wants him that way. Same with Akira Yamaoka (an extremely talented individual though) and the producer of Shattered Soldier/Neo Contra.

They want to create "rockstar" caliber designer personalities within their ranks so that they can have someone to step up if anything ever happens to Hideo Kojima. They drive this home too on more recent releases even on the US packaging, on the back you'll actually see a "Produced by ______" on Neo Contra/etc.

[sethsez]

You know, I never really heard about IGA until around the time HoD was announced. He didn't seem to be this huge deal before that.

[CIT]

By all accounts, IGA was the main designer behind SotN. A lot of people involved in the project were doing it sort of half heartedly, and he really pulled things together and developed the whole Metroidvania concept. The reason he is not credited as producer, is that job titles in Japanese companies are given by seniority rather than by the actual content of the job or responsibility held.

To get an idea what life was like at Konami in the mid-90s you can read this:

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050 ... d_01.shtml

[FRO]

Now here's the first epiphany. One of my favorite lines in video game history (and quotes of anything) came from Drac before he died: "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world, but loses his son? Matthew 16:26". I thought it was beautifully tragic that the father finally saw the folly of his ways, and instead of saying something like "I'm sorry I never showed you any love, son" recited a verse from The Bible, a book he absolutely despised, to apologize to his son...but alas, it was too late for him, and thus he died.

So anyways, kill Drac (never had trouble with the fight, ever...was about lvl 59 I guess when I first fought him years ago, not to mention I was equipped with the Crissaegrim...horribly anti-climatic last battle that ended in literally 9 seconds, but I digress), and here's what I read:

"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world, but loses his SOUL? Matthew 16:26"

I literally said what the fuck and just laid in disbelief. I had heard that same line easily a score of times before and doubtlessly read it, so why the hell am I now finally seeing that he never said 'son'? This is truly disheartening, and the ending will never have the same impact it did the many times I've seen it.

As BrianC mentioned already, it says "soul". Basically in the SoTN game, Dracula has a Darth Vader complex. In other words, he gained the world (power, fame, fortune, etc.) but lost his soul (literally, since according all popular mythologies, vampires have no soul). I his death, he finally realizes that all his gain was for naught, & probably (I'm hypothesizing here) during the brief moment as he's dying & moving on to the next realm (Hell, presumably) he sees the error of his ways & realizes that without a soul there is no love. In other words, he could not love his son, & effectually lost him years before, when he was unable to show his half-human son any affection or any real emotion (other than those associated w/ evil, i.e. greed, hate, malcontent, etc).

Anyway, in the end, Darth Vader sees the error of his ways & "returns" to the good side of the force, fulfilling the prophecy that he will bring balance. He's the only one who has done that, thus proving it's possible. Dracula (in SoTN) does the same thing, though it's at the moment of his death, rather than before (like Darth Vader). Anyway, I've probably just over-analyzed on this subject (it is, after all, only a video game), but I thought I should mention that. Despite all the cheesy/corny dialog in SoTN, I find the ending to be very poignant & appropriate to the story, & actually one that has some meaning & emotion to it. Unlike most action-oriented games where the ending is fairly sub-standard ("congrats, you saved the world" type stuff), SoTN actually has substance.

</soapbox>

[PFG 9000]

Perhaps I'm having a SotN Epiphany right now. I have always interpreted that line a bit differently. Remember, Dracula says "Sarcasm..." just before he quotes that scripture verse. I figured he was taking another stab at God with the quote, meaning all the while that he has gained immortality, and it was worth the price of his soul. You know, like "God asks what's to gain if you lose your soul...well I've gained immortality, Mr. God, and so this defeat is only temporary. I'll be back!"

Or something along that line.

I can't understand how to take the "sarcasm" part in any other way.

[Ghegs]

I his death, he finally realizes that all his gain was for naught, & probably (I'm hypothesizing here) during the brief moment as he's dying & moving on to the next realm (Hell, presumably) he sees the error of his ways & realizes that without a soul there is no love. In other words, he could not love his son, & effectually lost him years before, when he was unable to show his half-human son any affection or any real emotion (other than those associated w/ evil, i.e. greed, hate, malcontent, etc).

But Drac still fell in love with a human (which kinda destroys your hypothesis ), so I'm guessing it wasn't until Lisa's death when he started ignoring Alucard. The death of a family member tearing the remaining family apart is something that might happen in real life as well, which makes Drac seem all the more human.

[Moogs]

Perhaps I'm having a SotN Epiphany right now. I have always interpreted that line a bit differently. Remember, Dracula says "Sarcasm..." just before he quotes that scripture verse. I figured he was taking another stab at God with the quote, meaning all the while that he has gained immortality, and it was worth the price of his soul. You know, like "God asks what's to gain if you lose your soul...well I've gained immortality, Mr. God, and so this defeat is only temporary. I'll be back!"

Or something along that line.

I can't understand how to take the "sarcasm" part in any other way.

Wasn't the "Ah.. sarcasm" part of the quote in reference to what Alucard said before that?

[BrianC]

Perhaps I'm having a SotN Epiphany right now. I have always interpreted that line a bit differently. Remember, Dracula says "Sarcasm..." just before he quotes that scripture verse. I figured he was taking another stab at God with the quote, meaning all the while that he has gained immortality, and it was worth the price of his soul. You know, like "God asks what's to gain if you lose your soul...well I've gained immortality, Mr. God, and so this defeat is only temporary. I'll be back!"

Or something along that line.

I can't understand how to take the "sarcasm" part in any other way.

Wasn't the "Ah.. sarcasm" part of the quote in reference to what Alucard said before that?

That's what I thought too.

[FRO]

Wasn't the "Ah.. sarcasm" part of the quote in reference to what Alucard said before that?

I was thinking that as well...

And yes, Ghegs, perhaps his "love" for Lisa destroys my hypothesis (oh well!), but according to a lot of vampire lore, there is no love. I am a fan of vampire culture & lore because it's interesting. As an example, in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV show) it mentions Angel & Darla as companions, but never explicitly love. Also, Spike & Drusilla are "lovers" in a sense, but they share a "passion" for each other which I would not define as love, but as lust. In any event, it's probably not the same mythology in use by the two entities, so I'm probably just splitting hairs

[Ghegs]

In any event, it's probably not the same mythology in use by the two entities, so I'm probably just splitting hairs

Indeed, vampire mythology can work in many different ways. In fact, I think the only things that stay constant are the need for blood and the unhealthy relationship with direct sunlight. Pretty much everything else can change. It's been a while since I've read any Anne Rice, but don't the vamps feel love of some sort there?

You ever read The Preacher? Great comic. In it there's a vampire called Cassidy who quite literally laughs at the traditional vampire mythos. Here, I'll a quote some for the heck of it:

"Have yeh ever had a stake through the heart?"

"No!"

"I have. It fuckin' hurts. D'yeh eat garlic?"

"No..."

"I love the stuff. There's a place in San Francisco, The Stinking Rose, they cook everything with it. What about holy water?"

"What about it?"

"Exactly."

This conversation also took place in a church while they were looking at a huge crucifix, heh.

[LoneSage]

Thanks Seven Force for clearing that up, because I was expecting Iga's name to be under "Director & Producer", not some other guy I've never heard of.

Yeah, I realize what the 'soul' verse is, I just prefer my 'son' version (because it just feels more affectionate). Tonight at work I had that song "Watching Scottie Grow" (remember the Simpsons soapbox derby episode, with the song that had the lyrics 'That's my boy' in it? Yeah) and I was thinking about ole' dad showing Alucard how to suck the blood and everything else vampire father-sons do. Fishing, too.

For that "Ah, sarcasm..." part, yeah, that had to be in reference to what Al said.

[BulletMagnet]

You ever read The Preacher? Great comic. In it there's a vampire called Cassidy who quite literally laughs at the traditional vampire mythos.

If anyone reads Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" series, "Carpe Jugulum" has quite a bit of that sorta thing in it too...probably a ways more lighthearted though, heh heh.

[PFG 9000]

"You have been doomed ever since you lost the ability to love" is what Al says right before Drac does his "sarcasm" bit. How is that sarcastic? I realize it doesn't really make sense to put the sarcasm thing with the bible quote, but I think it makes less sense when you apply it to Al's line.

[Neo Rasa]

It's because you all keep trying to make sense out of it out of one or two sentances instead of looking at the entire dialogue.

[Moogs]

That and we're talking about Symphony of the Night, here.

Seriously.. LISTEN to the dialogue in this game. It's silly.

[BrianC]

That and we're talking about Symphony of the Night, here.

Seriously.. LISTEN to the dialogue in this game. It's silly.

I rather just read it. The dubbed voices aren't very good.

[PFG 9000]

Well, right. I realize the dialogue is essentially crap, but I'm just trying to make a little sense out of it. After all, the rest of the dialogue makes sense, even though it's poorly written.

[Icecap Veiwin]

I can confirm what BrianC said; just happened to have an NIV bible sitting on the desk.

The line is: "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?" (Matthew 16:26

I can scan the page later if you want.

[Shatterhand]

I don't remember where I saw that, if it was a movie or a book... someone is talking to a vampire about all the myths... and he says this shit about crucifixes and garlic and holy water are all stupid... and then the guy asks him "what about silver bullets in your heart, or a stake in your heart.... would that kill you"

And the vampire answers "Yeah.. as much as it would kill you too"

heh


BTW, silver bullets weren't supposed to kill werewolfs?

[MadSteelDarkness]

This seems like a good time to plug Zach Keene's fantastic FAQ of SOTN.

Edit: oops!

[Zach Keene]

GameFAQs doesn't allow hotlinking to the FAQs, so you'll either have to cut-and-paste that link or get it here.

[MadSteelDarkness]

^Oops. Sorry, man.

[JBC]

Bah! You guys are all wrong! What i meant when i said 'Sarcasm' was that that free-loading brat was being an insubordinate.
He only got mad at me because i kept telling him to get his ass out there and get a job. Instead he just locked himself up in his room and combed his hair all night.
One day i got pissed at him because he wouldn't take some responsiblility for once and feed his fucking Imp so i grounded him. THEN he's all like, 'SCREW YOU VLAD! (he wouldn't call me father anymore) I'm goina go live in a cave and you'll NEVER see me again!' So i was just like 'Good riddance!' I didn't think he'd really run away like a little girl.

I tell you... that kid's never gonna amount to shit. I think it's that Simon kid he keeps hanging around. That kid's a bad influence. I bet there off somewhere smokin' garlic right now...

[LoneSage]

haha, nice. I like the 'run around like a girl' line, because all throughout SOTN that's what Alucard looked like to me, what with his long hair and whathaveyou.

[PFG 9000]

One day i got pissed at him because he wouldn't take some responsiblility for once and feed his fucking Imp so i grounded him.

Classic!

[FRO]

I don't remember where I saw that, if it was a movie or a book... someone is talking to a vampire about all the myths... and he says this shit about crucifixes and garlic and holy water are all stupid... and then the guy asks him "what about silver bullets in your heart, or a stake in your heart.... would that kill you"

And the vampire answers "Yeah.. as much as it would kill you too"

heh


BTW, silver bullets weren't supposed to kill werewolfs?

In traditional mythology, yes, silver bullets kill werewolves.

The funny thing about vampire mythology is that there is such divergence between the traditional & the more sci-fi oriented. Take, for example, the Blade movies & comic book. Vampires actually die due to silver (some kind of allergic reaction), not wooden stakes, or the more traditional method of decapitation. In the movie Underworld, the Lychen (werewolves) came up w/ special bullets that contain "bottled sunlight" which is basically the chemical components that make up the UV rays that kill vampires. In more traditional mythology, the science of the thing would probably not matter; rather, it would be the presence of sunlight as a representation of light (i.e. good) that is foreign to the evil, soul-less being such as a vampire.

On the topic of love, that quote from Alucard about losing the ability to love - I believe that's a reference to his conversion from human to vampire. It would be in keeping w/ all other major vampire mythologies I'm familiar w/ that mention that love is not possible for a being of evil or a being w/ no soul.

Take for example in Buffy the Vampire Slayer; there are 2 examples in Season 2 I'll point out which make the case for a Vampire's inability to love.

In the episode "Surprise", where the demon known as "The Judge" is reassembled, he accosts Spike & Drusilla (leader vampires for the uninitiated) of sharing "affection & jealousy". I would not define "affection" as love; rather, it would be interchangeable, synonymically with terms such as "affectation", "obsession", "lust", or "attraction" with obvious differences between some of those terms in the way of accuracy.

In the episode "I Only Have Eyes For You" Buffy & Angel (vampire who had a soul & was Buffy's boyfriend, who then lost his soul & became evil again) were under the thrall of a pair of poultergeists in the school who had no closure due to the boy murdering his teacher & then himself out of guilt. While under the thrall, the boy assumes the role of Buffy (due to his inability to forgive himself for murdering his true love, falling inline w/ her inability to forgive herself for sleeping w/ Angel, causing his soul to leave) & Angel associated with the teacher (the woman). In any event, Buffy shoots Angel, but since he's a vampire he doesn't die. Instead, he rendevous w/ Buffy in the music room just before she (as the boy) is about to kill herself & stops it from happening by forgiving the boy for killing her. Anyway, once the spirits find closure (during their last kiss/embrace), Angel realizes that he is no longer under the thrall & leaves the scene in disgust. Upon his return to his home, he conversates w/ Spike & Drusilla while briskly washing himself so as to cleanse away the kiss & embrace, citing that she made him feel "love" as if it was a horrible thing.

Anyway, I've probably confused the heck out of anyone here who's not a BtVS fan and/or not into vampire mythology, but I think those are 2 examples why traditional vampire mythology would negate the possibility of love (though some Anne Rice novels would suggest otherwise, particularly Queen of the Damned).

[JBC]

Shit. He just called me again asking for money...