Shmups you really want to like but can't

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Surprised by the amount of Border Down hate, I really dig that game.

[Jonst]

i don"t hate it,i'm just underwhelmed by it every time i play it,i've tried to like it,i really have...i always preferred under defeat to BD.Expensive does not equate greatness! still,just my opinion.If you dig it,then that's cool.

[gs68]

Stellavanity. My opinion of the developer aside, it seems to be fairly well-done, and the equipment mechanic mixes things up a bit, but the excessive slowdown in 1.22 makes me feel like my PC is a piece of shit (1.21 videos show the game running at full speed), C-style feels too boring, and S-style feels like it's going to require some nonsensical strategies to nail a scoring pace that's acceptable by any sense of the word.

There's also the fact that I actually did pay for it, so I feel like I have to like this game or it's money wasted.

[Edge]

Ikaruga
and
Battle Garegga


I acknowledge both as good games. But I simply don't enjoy playing them that much. Tried both games various times, but it just never clicked with me. I also find Batrider being more easy to enjoy than Garegga.

[Zengeku3]

PoDD and PoFV.

Looks badass and would probably be good to actually build a bit of skill with. I'm sure it's also tons of fun when you get the game under your skin.
Problem is simply that I don't understand how to play it and furthermore, it doesn't even have autofire :/ and until it's finally understood it's impossible to have too much fun with it and I learn best when having fun so yeah, evil circle.

One day i'll understand these games but until then.

[spadgy]

Does Twin Eagle count? Actually, it's kind of the opposite. I like it a lot, but I really don't want to!

I have a strange relationship with Mad Shark too. I really do love it, and think it's a great game, but after two credits I have to put it down for weeks. Same with Turbo Force and Meta Fox to a degree.

And Akai Katana, I haven't quite fallen for yet, or at least not as much as I hoped for. I really like it, but as Progear's my favourite ever game, I still want to love AK a touch more.

[Jonst]

I'll try not to miss a chance to big up akai katana,it's a superb game! The scoring in all modes is so much fun! It was designed by the same guy that did progear as well...give it another go!

[spadgy]

I will, as soon as I 1CC Caladrius!

I admit I've only focused on arcade mode. At a recent one of our weekly London shmupmeets, we played a bit of Shin, which I've not really tried. That may be the mode for me.

[Jonst]

Shin mode then climax mode I reckon.having said that,climax mode is what origin mode should have been!

[gs68]

Gradius 2 (MSX) and its direct sequel Gofer no Yabou Episode II. Unique concepts not seen in other Gradius games such as swiping weapons from defeated bosses, but they come with the usual Gradius brand of "die once and you might as well restart", not to mention the stutter scroll, even if that's not the developers' fault.

And of course Gradius III (AC). I want to like it since it's a more complete experience than the SNES port, but at the same time, Battle Garegga with the fire button on maximum external autofire and superglued down is probably more fair than this trash. Not to mention, the 3D stage is completely tacky and has absolutely no purpose in this game.

[Jonst]

I'd love to do a shmup meet one of these days and get to meet some forum members in the flesh!

[spadgy]

I'd love to do a shmup meet one of these days and get to meet some forum members in the flesh!

Your in the UK! We meet weekly in London for a 'minimeet', and now we're trying a monthly larger scale meet too. We'd love you to join us one day!

[Jonst]

That would be cool! I can make one after I get paid near the the end of nov...I'll keep checking this thread,I'd love to come along,let me know if you need me to bring anything,I have pretty fair pal and ntsc j collection covering most consoles.(I know you have loads) cheers!

Edit: I mean check the shmup meets thread!

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

i don"t hate it,i'm just underwhelmed by it every time i play it,i've tried to like it,i really have...i always preferred under defeat to BD.Expensive does not equate greatness! still,just my opinion.If you dig it,then that's cool.

Yeah hate's a strong word, should have said disappointment maybe.

[Taizen Chisou]

I have difficulties enjoying Deathsmiles. Actually most horizontal-orientation shmups. It just feels weird.
As for the shmup series that I actually play a lot, TH13- Ten Desires is... quite the acquired taste. Like, I want to like it, but there's just so much about it that I dislike horribly.

[spadgy]

That would be cool! I can make one after I get paid near the the end of nov...I'll keep checking this thread,I'd love to come along,let me know if you need me to bring anything,I have pretty fair pal and ntsc j collection covering most consoles.(I know you have loads) cheers!

Edit: I mean check the shmup meets thread!

See you soon then mate!

[Never_Scurred]

1. Espgaluda 2
2. Donpachi
3. Raiden 3, 4
4. Akai Katana
5. Hellsinker
6. Anything Touhou
7. Ikaruga

[Despatche]

thunder force the series, the whole fucking series. arhghaghemgepnblalanebnkleaesmoaeg.
pretty much anything by compile-&-friends. OAKNEGOBNAEOGJBOASEBJOBOEJASBJOAESBJOEASBOJ.

it's really easy to just "guess" people, especially when they outright tell you how right you are later:

Strikers 1945 series. The music sucks (unforgiveable for a shooter) and shooting stuff never feels awesome since your shot is comparatively weak[...]

eh, music's actually pretty nice in most psikyo games, especially those three. and you're usually pretty powerful in any given game, unless you sit at low shot power forever. sounds more like someone's having trouble grasping good design because it isn't "fun"~

Not to mention, the 3D stage is completely tacky and has absolutely no purpose in this game.

you're going too far with this bit. it's a pseudo-3d stage like any other, a fairly neat idea that made up most of the mid-'80s to mid-'90s. its presence in gradius iii is pretty harmless and it's got a nice bgm to go with it... back off.

[...]and the elevator tunes it uses as "music" is unbearable to me.

again, something that tries very hard to break free of those cruel chains known as "opinion". even the stuff that vaguely resembles elevator music is way too strong to not punch you in the face; if that's what's really "unbearable", okay i guess.

morning kisses > you, dabes final boss theme

[Jonst]

That would be cool! I can make one after I get paid near the the end of nov...I'll keep checking this thread,I'd love to come along,let me know if you need me to bring anything,I have pretty fair pal and ntsc j collection covering most consoles.(I know you have loads) cheers!

Edit: I mean check the shmup meets thread!

See you soon then mate!

Yeah,definitely! I'll confirm nearer the time exactly when I can show up (as I work shifts)

[Jonst]

I don't understand all this "it's a hori" therefore it's shit/don't like it/can't play it,etc...it's fair enough to not like a series of games for whatever reason but to dismiss all hori's just because of that reason just seems a bit silly to me.Or am Missing something else?

[Zaarock]

Ikaruga - very difficult optimal chaining so I get frustrated (RSG is eeasy) and the boss fights disappoint me as they don't feel formidable or interesting, more like puzzles that are fairly trivial once you figure them out.

Psyvariar - I get obsessed about unlocking the hardest stages even though I'm not good and then get very frustrated. I'll get into it some day I imagine, need to get something else than broken ps2 pads to play with though

TLDR I'm bad. I should play more border down

[wiNteR]

Ikaruga - very difficult optimal chaining so I get frustrated (RSG is eeasy) and the boss fights disappoint me as they don't feel formidable or interesting, more like puzzles that are fairly trivial once you figure them out.

Years ago, when I was quite an inexperienced player, I found it quite difficult to like Ikaruga. It is definitely one of those games where it is difficult to ignore score (something I do quite a lot). Though it seems possible and reasonably fun play it for a survival clear alone too.

But, on the other hand, on the second go I definitely learned to appreciate it more. I think there are a number of aspects to it (that's why it makes for an interesting discussion). Firstly, the game is pretty much a pick and choose game. There are different sections/set-pieces in every stage. And depending on your mastery of the sections, you do them as well you can. If you can't do a section optimally or close to optimal you can still get decent chains out of it (of course it varies quite a lot depending on the difficulty of particular section). Also, the game always gives you a way to keep your chain up even if you can't do a section well. Even then, the penalty for losing a chain isn't very high (relatively speaking).

If one of your sections is not good the game doesn't punish you for it. You can still do well in other parts.

There is also a second aspect to it too. Part of enjoyment of the game is looking at variety in level design and appreciating set-pieces the game has to offer (if you don't try to score at all that part is lost). Also, I think it is better that one tries to play this game and try to learn it by themselves first then going straight to videos first. That can definitely create a less than ideal impression of the game. To be honest, I think RSG would be like that too (haven't played it). Part of enjoyment of should be to look at variety of weapons available and trying to figure what to use by oneself first.

You are right about bosses. But the bosses really aren't the highlight of this game, unlike RSG. But timing out the stage-5 boss (second last form I think) is both difficult and lot of fun. It was bit too difficult for me to do it consistently though.

[VHS-porn]

Battle Garegga.
I'd feel so 1337 if I could play this damn game

[trap15]

Dogyuun. So much cool about it, but I feel so underpowered all the time and there's basically no zako at all.

[spadgy]

Psyvariar - I get obsessed about unlocking the hardest stages even though I'm not good and then get very frustrated. I'll get into it some day I imagine, need to get something else than broken ps2 pads to play with though

I love Psyvariar, but if you're struggling to enjoy it, jump straight to the far superior Psyvariar 2!

[nosorrow]

Radiant Silvergun: I don't enjoy it one bit. Got it this week and it's already back up on eBay.
Ikaruga: Playing it feels like a chore.
Mars Matrix: Overwhelming and too complicated for my tastes. Nondescript music.
RayCrisis: I really wanted to enjoy this one (I love the previous two in the series), but the way the ship handles is weird; it's as though you are stuck in molasses or something. Terrible soundtrack too.
Gun Frontier: Ship is too slow...
Robo Aleste: I think I must have bought that one at least three different times, really wanted to like it as I am a big fan of MUSHA, Space Megaforce and Blazing Lazers.
Gate of Thunder: I don't see what the big deal is, it's okayish (but I need to spend more time with it - it is also the most enjoyable game out of this list)

Still on the fence about Border Down... and because of that, I'm wondering if I should purchase Under Defeat. I prefer "simple" shooters and some of you said the handling/play angles in UD are weird, so I don't know anymore.

[BIL]

You mentioned liking Raystorm, so Under Defeat's oddest feature, the slightly tilted overhead view, might not faze you so much. It is a very straightforward game besides that.

I would suggest getting a used copy of Toaplan Shooting Battle Vol. 1 (PS1) for Kyuukyoku Tiger, the zenith of simple helicopter shooting. Plus you can get revenge on Gun Frontier by enabling its exclusive "fast ship" mode in Tiger Heli!

[nosorrow]

Under Defeat: Thanks! I agree, I don't think this is going to be an issue after all.

Toaplan Collection: Playing Japanese PS/PS2 games on an NA console seems a bit complicated, unfortunately. (If not, I would have purchased Gradius Gaiden a long time ago instead of settling for the PSP version). You can't beat Sega consoles when it comes to ease of playing imports! lol

[nasty_wolverine]

Psyvariar - I get obsessed about unlocking the hardest stages even though I'm not good and then get very frustrated. I'll get into it some day I imagine, need to get something else than broken ps2 pads to play with though

I love Psyvariar, but if you're struggling to enjoy it, jump straight to the far superior Psyvariar 2!

General consensus is that the first(revision) is far superior than 2. In 2 you can just sit in spots be fine. Music is better in 1 in my opinion. Graphics are better in 2 being a noami game. There is a whole thread about it. somewhere.

[nosorrow]

Might have to reconsider what I just said about Radiant Silvergun... Was put off by the game initially, but I tried with the easier settings on and it gives me more time to try out the various weapons. Still would like to hear some beginner tips about how to approach it though.

That being said, I don't get how this has garnered so much attention over the years. I mean, Hyper Duel and Soukyugurentai have a lot more going for them (I'm more conservative than "progressive" though).