Too many freakin' powerups!

[Sinful]

This is really getting in my way of enjoying some STGs, and it's starting to drive me nuts enough to annoy you all with some bitching. What's the last game that basically made me shut it off and tell myself to never return to? "Override" for the PCE. "I already got what I want, and fully powered up, stop shoving down more crap down my throat!" It's to the point where I can't focus on bullet dodging or what else is on screen at all cause I'm too focused on these dam powerups dropping in one after another and/or more then one at a time.

Compile seems to be a company that never figured out how to stop litering the screen with nothing but powerups too? And I'm shocked that they can be so popular at the same time with such a flaw? ... Lots 'o crap powerups too, like they intended 'em to be obstacles?

If you're gonna have lots of weapon choices in a shmup, spread them between mutiple weaponry setups or vehicles at the start of the game. Like in Final Soldier & the Gradius series.


Gradius Gaiden, believe it or not, fudged this up too. And it's funny, reading the interviews, I see that the Arcade team understood this fine line of balance and were carefully not to put too much. Yet this totally flew over the Gaiden teams head.

And don't tell me it's part of the challenge. Cause I'd rather go play Gradius III AC Cube Rush back to back in a tub full of ice instead. Or better yet; go figure out some super convoluted STG scoring system + go for the world record, before I ever learn to love someting like this. ... Well, it's how I feel, anways. And I guess it's fine to disagree? >_>

Well, that felt good. Lets do this again!

[broken harbour]

Ummmm..... Cool story bro?

[shmuppyLove]

Play Soukyugurentai instead.

Or anything from Raizing, really.

[ZacharyB]

Recca... One of the biggest challenges in the game is holding onto your preferred weapon/option formation as a dozen others lazily float down the screen, all while the enemy is raising hell.

[IseeThings]

power-up systems can be interesting, especially if you have a 'Raiden' powerup system where if you collect a different weapon type it will switch to the same level (rather than higher) of a different weapon..

I noticed this when playing that Thunderbolt II thing for the Genesis, most of the time you end up having to avoid powerups because while they're not exactly rare they have a fairly short on-screen liftime and usually only represent each weapon once.. if you don't powerup the same weapon it often ends up powering down of it's own accord too...

I kinda agree that when you are already fully powered up (and don't have an alt. weapon system) that throwing extra powerups at you can be annoying, but I guess at that point it becomes part of the scoring mechanics, and most 'casual' players would also argue that strict chaining systems are every bit as annoying.

This thread feels a bit like the 'delay in cave games' one, people wanting a game to be 'perfect' but if every game was 'perfect' then there would be no variety. Sometimes what makes a game fun / challenging is the 'fuck you' factor; as long as it is actually fair. Isn't that exactly what shmups are about?

[Ed Oscuro]

Sometimes what makes a game fun / challenging is the 'fuck you' factor; as long as it is actually fair. Isn't that exactly what shmups are about?

Yes, precisely!

[Sinful]

lol, I gave Override PCE another go after trying it for the Sharp X68000 version (darn interesting mechanic vehicle/enemy designs brought me back. As this seems to be a rarity now in shmups, sadly). And I found that if I powerup the red powerup all the way, it starts homing in on everybody & including other powerups as soon as they appear. And thus they usually end up near the edge of the screen of the left & right, passing me by while I'm in the middle just chilling... picking my nose...

Well, the Sharp X68000 seems like a totally different beast. Plus a lot harder too, as I never made it past level 1 (Course I need to try again) which is totally different from the PCE version. Need to play both more and see if any levels are shared? Hoping against it, of course.

Play Soukyugurentai instead.

Or anything from Raizing, really.

Yeah, I noticed Raizing stole some things from Compile, like the P chips system (guess cause of the Compile guys on the team too?), but I don't seem to mind Raizing games at all. Cause it's the same powerup over and over for the most part. It changes nothing if I don't avoid some (except some rank, maybe?). My problem is mostly with weapon changing powerups & too many weapons. Put that at the start of games only if it's too many.

In Souky, I'm always tempted to play it like a retard and just collect all the P-Chips. Got to catch them all! "Oh yeah rank! Think you can stop me with all this firepower! You just try it, mister!"... Course it kicks my butt, but I'm having fun, surpisingly?.... Hmm, I should really try to play this properly and see what happens?

Sometimes what makes a game fun / challenging is the 'fuck you' factor; as long as it is actually fair. Isn't that exactly what shmups are about?

Yes, precisely!

I knew this was coming. Why I wrote that last paragraph.

Yes, true, but it doesn't mean it's fun.

And, it really seems like they're overcomplicating things too much to the point where the game design & balance may suffer? Don't get me wrong though, I don't like my games to be too refined either, as I think that leads to worse off game too. Just look at the magic that is the 3 dev months Salamander Arcade. That baby's one of a kind in so many categories & the many unique vibes it gives off.

[Leandro]

"The 'fuck you' factor". That made me LOL.

[PedroMD]

I find it kind of stupid when the game has a well defined powerup progression (like only one or two at set points in each stage) and when you die it spawns the powerups back for you to collect. The exact same number you had before, because that area of the game was designed to be played with that power level. Sure, this way there is a palpable progression: your ship starts weak and gets stronger, but "stronger" here is meaningless, since the game gets harder anyway and the enemies' hit points go up accordingly. Some games would benefit from starting fully powered up and designing the early stages around this.

Not that this is a severe fault or anything, just a little nitpick. Most of the time I love powerups. Too much maybe, greed gets me killed all the time.

[IseeThings]

I have often wondered about using a mechanic like that in a game..

don't have power-ups at all, but start the game fully powered up, but with the catch that for each boss you kill you're drained of a level of power, sacrificing yourself to progress.

by the time you get to the last level it wouldn't be harder because there were more enemies, or they had a higher rate of fire, or even took more damage, it would be harder because you've gone from being the god-like force to a peashooter, trying to save the world with your last breath.

some might call it anti-climatic, but it's a different way of approaching game difficulty and not one I can remember seeing in a shooter..

[cools]

Sometimes what makes a game fun / challenging is the 'fuck you' factor; as long as it is actually fair. Isn't that exactly what shmups are about?

Damn right. See Ibara.

[Kollision]

master of weapon

[gs68]

OP should play Eschatos on Advanced for score and have fun seeing what happens when items are picked up. :3

[SuperSoaker360]

Play HELLSINKER.

Even after 1CCing the entire game, I still had no idea what the hell some of the items did.

[Udderdude]

Dodge the power-up is also a fun and exciting activity in Raizing games >_>

[SuperDeadite]

Salamander 2 = Speed Up Minefield...

[Bloodreign]

master of weapon

It's like a mountain of powerups that never stop coming while avoiding the bullets coming down that are already hard enough to avoid. I have what I want powerup wise, don't send me powerups I don't need.

[Sinful]

So yeah, what do you guys think of Compile games? Are these not too many powerups? Do I really need to keep at them until I see the beauty in an orgy of powerups everywhere & at every second? And master the art of dodging weapons changing ups that could prove fatal ceratin points? I mean, there sure seem to be a tone of Compile fans. Got to be a reason behind it, no?

master of weapon

It's like a mountain of powerups that never stop coming while avoiding the bullets coming down that are already hard enough to avoid. I have what I want powerup wise, don't send me powerups I don't need.

Really? I better go put more then a few second into this game for once...

Recca too, I guess? But that game's shield mechanic is what makes me stop playing too soon...

[BIL]

So yeah, what do you guys think of Compile games? Are these not too many powerups? Do I really need to keep at them until I see the beauty in an orgy of powerups everywhere & at every second? And master the art of dodging weapons changing ups that could prove fatal ceratin points? I mean, there sure seem to be a tone of Compile fans. Got to be a reason behind it, no?

In harder Compile games (like Super Aleste's maximum difficulty) you often want to grab a powerup regardless of the weapon or effect, for the burst of invincibility it'll provide. Zanac Neo's bosses at max difficulty can release avalanches of indestructible bullets that are best dealt with by leaving a powerup chip onscreen for a quick invincibility burst. This also lets you park over enemies for maximum firing rate plus damage from your ship itself.

Since they're usually full-screen verts with fast ships and moderate difficulties, I don't have much trouble dodging powerups in most Compile games. They also tend to adhere to a schedule, so you'll know when one's due to appear. See Musha Aleste.

Same! Same! Same!'s MD port can get annoying with its occasional screenloads of ricocheting green powerups, at least on Hard (which I consider its default difficulty). Scrolling left or right so that they bounce favourably actually becomes part of the game at tougher points.

Salamander 2's speedup minefields are a huge pain in the ass, and a good argument for Gradius V's system of max speed rolling over to initial speed.

[2D•TRON]

I have often wondered about using a mechanic like that in a game..

don't have power-ups at all, but start the game fully powered up, but with the catch that for each boss you kill you're drained of a level of power, sacrificing yourself to progress.

by the time you get to the last level it wouldn't be harder because there were more enemies, or they had a higher rate of fire, or even took more damage, it would be harder because you've gone from being the god-like force to a peashooter, trying to save the world with your last breath.

some might call it anti-climatic, but it's a different way of approaching game difficulty and not one I can remember seeing in a shooter..

I think that would be a great mechanic. Two reasons instantly sprang to mind-
1 - experienced shmup'rs would be challenged like never before.
2 - entry level gamers/those that have never played a shmup before will likely find being fully powered makes shmups allot more enjoyable. Something that they might not have experienced in other shmups before as they die to soon.

Out of all my close friends I'm the only one who enjoys/loves/understands a shmup.
From my experience we @ shmups are a minority in the gaming field and shmups are massively misunderstood.

[Captain]

What if you were given a godweapon when you start the game.
Powerups are everywhere, and if you want your fancy weapon, you dodge BOTH the powerups and the bullets.
Weapons are perfectly normal but much, much worse than the original weapon.
Also 1 godweapon powerup when you beat loops for fairness.