Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

[Zengeku3]

in general when you're just practicing random stuff for fun it's a good idea to play stuff above what you can currently clear
and that's how the "touhou guys" happened

[royalfan84]

My only experiences with Cave so far are Akai Katana and Guwange (although I ordered Dodonpach Res off amazon yesterday). I would not say Cave is the pinnacle of the genre; but am certain some of their games are high-points in it. I am not a fan of unlimited credits, at least not to start off with. I feel like some of the fun is taken out of "improving with determination anxious to find out what's next whether it be next level, challenge, boss.) I much prefer the ability to gain credits with achievements and\or time spent. I think unlimited credits should be only available after accomplishing something moderately significant in the game. But that's just my feeling; I am disciplined enough to only allow myself a set number of credits before starting over.

I have enjoyed AK and Guwange quite a bit; Guwange certainly takes some getting used to but I love the creativity with the gameplay mechanics, settings, and visuals. I was istantly hooked on AK; but again honestly am a bit turned off to the unlimited credits to start off with. I like Cave thus far; I can't wait to play the Dodonpachi games and Mushi Futari eventually. That being said; I much prefer the manic\survival shmups to the graze and glaze slow-moving bullet-hell types. I think the saturn-ps1 era is probably the high point of the genre so far; but would also consider the pc engine-genesis era to be right up there with it.

It does revolve around a lot of preferrences; I for one will avoid the loli-heavy games that cave has put out. I prefer spaceship-sci fi or warplanes- any era type shooters but I think Guwange and Mushi-Futari offer variety. I do wish that there were more modern Blazing Lazers-type games as well as modern games that approach the "epic" such as Radiant Silvergun....but I think Cave is pretty solid so far with all the scoring variety mechanics they offer as well as various settings(both technical and visual) and I am grateful they've helped keep the genre alive.

Also; while I love Ikaruga (one of the games that got me re-interested in genre) I must admit the mid to latter parts of the game were disappointing to me. Still a great game but they focused too much on the puzzle aspect and less on the joyful shooting parts I feel. Started off amazing; ends fairly well. But I didn't really enjoy what was in between all that much...

[KAI]

Once you become a Cave fanboy, there's no going back.

[friedrich]

My only experiences with Cave so far are Akai Katana and Guwange (although I ordered Dodonpach Res off amazon yesterday). I would not say Cave is the pinnacle of the genre; but am certain some of their games are high-points in it.

If you only played these two Cave games, you're in no position to say if they are the pinnacle of the genre or not. And how can you be certain that some of their games are high-points, if you've never even played them?

I am not a fan of unlimited credits, at least not to start off with. I feel like some of the fun is taken out of "improving with determination anxious to find out what's next whether it be next level, challenge, boss.)

You're supposed to play only one credit at a time, so this doesn't really matter.

[royalfan84]

My only experiences with Cave so far are Akai Katana and Guwange (although I ordered Dodonpach Res off amazon yesterday). I would not say Cave is the pinnacle of the genre; but am certain some of their games are high-points in it.

If you only played these two Cave games, you're in no position to say if they are the pinnacle of the genre or not. And how can you be certain that some of their games are high-points, if you've never even played them?

I am not a fan of unlimited credits, at least not to start off with. I feel like some of the fun is taken out of "improving with determination anxious to find out what's next whether it be next level, challenge, boss.)

You're supposed to play only one credit at a time, so this doesn't really matter.

Fair enough; that's why I prefaced my opinion with the fact I've only played two of their games so far; I still can base my opinion off of that thus far. And I assume that at least Dodonpachi is universally regarded as a high point in the stg genre; and many cave titles are also highly regarded. So yeah it's an assumption of certainty if that makes sense...I will get to these titles eventually. I am simply not there yet. But that doesn't mean I can't form an opinion; just not as well informed as others yet. I was basically giving my opinion thus far on the two games I've played and the companies' output as a whole.

It does matter to some players. For a myriad of reasons. Again; it's not the biggest deal in the world. But I disagree that it doesn't matter.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Nobody who plays the games seriously dumps tons of credits in each run - you're supposed to aim for a 1CC of the game. But having unlimited credits allowed serves an important purpose: if you die in the arcade you can continue and at least practice the sections after where you died.

A lot of Score Attack modes in the console ports of shmups disallow continues anyways (Futari, Gradius V, etc).

[royalfan84]

Nobody who plays the games seriously dumps tons of credits in each run - you're supposed to aim for a 1CC of the game. But having unlimited credits allowed serves an important purpose: if you die in the arcade you can continue and at least practice the sections after where you died.

A lot of Score Attack modes in the console ports of shmups disallow continues anyways (Futari, Gradius V, etc).

Yes I understand this; it makes sense for a scoring aspect to allow unlimited credits to practice. And I realize that Cave games are geared more to the scoring aspect of the genre. I am just commenting from an initial experience standpoint it can be a bit disappointing that you can play through the entire game credit-feeding from the get-go. I suppose what it takes away from the initial experience it makes up for in the overall scoring mechanics-replay value....depending on your preference. I like the rewarding challenge of initial experience slightly better than the score challenges; although enjoy both greatly. Again; it's not a huge deal but it's something that can be slightly oft-putting initially to some gamers getting into the genre.

@Friedrich- I'm in every position to form any opinion. There is not a set number of games I must play by one dev that magically unlocks my ability to form an opinion. I'm new to the genre; you can and will disagree with my opinions. Likewise my opinions will change as I play more titles and spend more time on the genre. Just because I haven't played many Cave games yet does not mean my initial reactions are obsolete. This is some of the elitism that is associated with the genre. I haven't found much of any on this site; but there are some cases. I welcome all your opinions and views and help. But I strongly disagree with those who think newer players views are invalid.

When there is experiences I enjoy; I generally want to share those with others. For instance; Kubrick films. I've seen many of them; enjoy them greatly. I let a friend borrow a couple of my Kubrick DVDs then ask him what he thinks so far...and no matter what he says his insight and opinion matters to me from a subjective standpoint. That friend is fully capable enough to form his initial opinion of Kubrick even though he's only seen a couple of his films. Just an example.

[KAI]

Yagawa is also Cave, don't forget that.

[friedrich]

But that doesn't mean I can't form an opinion; just not as well informed as others yet.

That's right.

It does matter to some players. For a myriad of reasons. Again; it's not the biggest deal in the world. But I disagree that it doesn't matter.

See my answer on the second page of this thread. Ideally it would not be possible to use continues at all. The point is that arcade games and arcade ports to consoles are expected to have continues at this point and that will not change. Therefore to be disciplined and allow yourself only one credit is a must. So it doesn't really matter whether the game gives you five continues or unlimited continues.

But having unlimited credits allowed serves an important purpose: if you die in the arcade you can continue and at least practice the sections after where you died.

Why would you do that and ruin the game for yourself like this? One of the most exciting things in arcade games is getting further then you've ever gotten before and not knowing at all what to expect.

[chum]

One of the most exciting things in arcade games is getting further then you've ever gotten before and not knowing at all what to expect.

In an actual arcade, wouldn't this occurrence be quite uncommon? Or are you telling me you'd just close your eyes or look the other way if someone else ever got further than you?

Also, while it may be exciting to get further and see new content, there are other things worth cherishing about these games, such as getting better. If someone wants to get better fast, It's understandable that they'd put aside your notion of excitement and focus on improvement, instead, because improving can also be very exciting. Rather than getting to the next stage, one which you've never seen before, it can be even more exciting to get to that stage with elaborate plans of how to conquer it.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

One of the most exciting things in arcade games is getting further then you've ever gotten before and not knowing at all what to expect.

Knowing what to expect is not the same as knowing how to deal with it. Even if you know what's coming up, that doesn't mean you've learned how to actually complete that section. Basically, what chum said.

[nesrulz]

"Once you go CAVE, you never go ... " uh ... Grave? Rave? Shave? Wave? Slave?

[Squire Grooktook]

Really? I kind of feel like it's the opposite since in bullet hells you have to follow a very strict plan to avoid death.

If you're playing R-Type and you get faced with a dense pattern because you didn't know the enemy spawn points, you die. No questions asked. If you're playing Dodonpachi and you get faced with a dense pattern because you didn't know the enemy spawn points, you still have a chance to make it out with good dodging fundamentals.

Ikeda even said in an interview that he thought there had to be room to improvise in shooters.

Really though, it's not really good to generalize "all games of x sub genre are memorizers, all games of y sub genre are not". It really comes down to a case by case basis with games and how well the individual hazards in them are telegraphed to be fair. I will say though that generally I think a lot more bullet hell shooters are realistically 1cc'able on ones first attempt than traditional shooters.

You can't really play something like Ketsui based on sheer reflexes.

Don't see why not. Sure, it's easy to get walled by zako aimed shots on stages 4 and 5, but both ships have tools to deal with that stuff even if you don't know the exact level layouts. I mean yeah, it's really fucking hard, but it's certainly not impossible.

I dunno about the Ura loop though.

[Bananamatic]

you can't play any loop of ketsui on sheer reflexes if you want to do anything better than a bombspam 1-all

make routes and follow them, this goes for every fucking shmup out there

[Squire Grooktook]

you can't play any loop of ketsui on sheer reflexes if you want to do anything better than a bombspam 1-all

make routes and follow them, this goes for every fucking shmup out there

Obviously I am talking about survival.

Asking for a shmup that telegraphs everything so incredibly well that you can beat the scoring world record on your first attempt is absolutely ridiculous. Of course you have to memorize if you want to score no matter how flexible the system is.

[Despatche]

cactu and dxk are lookin' real impressive right about now. just thought i'd point that out.

Really though, it's not really good to generalize "all games of x sub genre are memorizers, all games of y sub genre are not". It really comes down to a case by case basis with games and how well the individual hazards in them are telegraphed to be fair.

correct. however, it is good to generalize that 'all non-random games are memorizers', because... well, it's true! at some point everyone should stop worrying about 'can i possibly clear this on my first try?' and just get in the mood to learn a game from the very start.

whether it's for 'score' or for 'survival' doesn't matter... and 'bombspam 1-all' is not the same thing as 'playing for survival'. surely you don't feel terrible about bombspamming your way through all the hard stuff and want a do-over?

[NzzpNzzp]

Obviously I am talking about survival.

You can't survive without learning things either. You remember when Saidaioujou first came out and everyone sucked at it? Even the best guys were dying. You gotta know what's coming or you're screwed.

[Erppo]

You can't survive without learning things either.

Yes you can when you have bombs.

You remember when Saidaioujou first came out and everyone sucked at it? Even the best guys were dying.

Everyone indeed sucked at it but plenty of people still cleared it pretty quickly.

[NzzpNzzp]

Yeah, they cleared it pretty quickly, after they'd spent a little while learning the stages. Nobody was clearing it on their first try just dodging on reflex.

[Erppo]

I guess it depends on what degree of learning you're talking about then. It's obviously pretty hard to learn absolutely nothing from your previous attempts, but there's a big difference between remembering where you got killed last time and just using a bomb there, and crafting a carefully planned route through everything.

I do remember some live stream back from when the arcade version was released though, where some of the best players (ISO, SWY and some third famous guy) got to play the game for what I understood was their first time ever. One of them did get to the final boss on one credit, but the stream was cut there.

[NzzpNzzp]

Oh, I wasn't trying to suggest that people needed to memorise the entire game 100%, just that you do need to have a vague idea of what's coming. Being good at dodging only goes so far.
And yeah, I remember that stream, but I came in late so I musta missed it. I do remember one of them trying expert and getting crushed though. It was cool.

[Bananamatic]

Wasn't there a location test of the first 3 stages before though? So it was basically a world class player against a not very hard game where only stages 4 and 5 were unknown.

[Some-Mist]

My only experiences with Cave so far are Akai Katana and Guwange (although I ordered Dodonpach Res off amazon yesterday). I would not say Cave is the pinnacle of the genre; but am certain some of their games are high-points in it.

If you only played these two Cave games, you're in no position to say if they are the pinnacle of the genre or not. And how can you be certain that some of their games are high-points, if you've never even played them?

I am not a fan of unlimited credits, at least not to start off with. I feel like some of the fun is taken out of "improving with determination anxious to find out what's next whether it be next level, challenge, boss.)

You're supposed to play only one credit at a time, so this doesn't really matter.

Fair enough; that's why I prefaced my opinion with the fact I've only played two of their games so far; I still can base my opinion off of that thus far. And I assume that at least Dodonpachi is universally regarded as a high point in the stg genre; and many cave titles are also highly regarded. So yeah it's an assumption of certainty if that makes sense...I will get to these titles eventually. I am simply not there yet. But that doesn't mean I can't form an opinion; just not as well informed as others yet. I was basically giving my opinion thus far on the two games I've played and the companies' output as a whole.

It does matter to some players. For a myriad of reasons. Again; it's not the biggest deal in the world. But I disagree that it doesn't matter.

the thing is, akai katana, guwange, and dodonpachi daifukkatsu (resurrection) are not regarded as high points of the genre. The original dodonpachi is. I actually enjoy all 3 games you've listed even though there are some haters. The three titles are mostly seen as by-products of a fantastic company.

IMO - for newcomers - the high point would be games such as mushihimesama futari and espgaluda II, whereas for the more seasoned player.. you will find that many are fond of ketsui, dodonpachi daioujou, and yagawa (pink sweets, ibara, muchi muchi pork). Dodonpachi is the perfect bridge between the newcomer and veteran experience. Unfortunately, you haven't experienced any of the highly regarded titles which is why you're getting some flack from the users.

You can still have an opinion based on the two (soon to be three) titles you've played, but it definitely won't be seen as credible.. especially when you haven't seen the better titles Cave has to offer.

[Jonst]

^ Espgaluda 2 for new comers? I would disagree with that,due to it's well know highly complex scoring system and brutal difficulty later on in the game...plus,not that many people on here have on their 1cc lists.It should be up there with ketsui and doj.

[Some-Mist]

I get what you mean and deathsmiles would be a better substitute in terms of difficulty (as would AKS which he has played), but in overall aesthetics/appeal to newcomers I think it somewhat appeals to the same "new" crowd just as Futari does. At least in my situation, I bought futari and galuda 2 at the same time (as many have). I definitely agree galuda 2 ranks among the harder CAVE titles like ketsui and doj - I still haven't 1CCed it either.

[EmperorIng]

I've only cleared games I have copiously credit-fed, to learn how to survive tough sections in and out. Sometimes the "only use one credit ever" mentality keeps you from actually learning how to beat the game. Next you'll say "Don't use savestates" (I don't but that's because console games don't have them!).

[Tokyo-J]

Cave makes most other shmups not fun after playing all of their amazing titles.

Some companies do stand out though. Alfa System , Skonec , Treasure , Psikyo , Takumi , Raizing / 8ighting , Seibu and a few others that no longer are with us made some fun stuff. But as far as current developers on G.rev seems to be making console shmups worth playing.

[Some-Mist]

I've only cleared games I have copiously credit-fed, to learn how to survive tough sections in and out. Sometimes the "only use one credit ever" mentality keeps you from actually learning how to beat the game. Next you'll say "Don't use savestates" (I don't but that's because console games don't have them!).

I used to credit feed games to learn the levels when I first started playing CAVE shmups, but I never do any more..
I just got the ESP Ra.De. PCB and played for the first time. About 40 credits into it so far, but haven't credit fed. No idea what stage 5 looks like.
Same goes for Ibara and stage 6.

never used a save state in my life -_-

[Erppo]

Sometimes the "only use one credit ever" mentality keeps you from actually learning how to beat the game.

Applying this even to learning/practicing is just silly and this forum is probably the only place where I've encountered that.

[KAI]

Credit feeding a game like a moron it's not the same as credit feeding a game to learn the layout and shit like that.