Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

[ACSeraph]

(I think bullet hell is for entirely reflex-testing fun and non-bullet hell is both strategy/reflex, and love both)

Really? I kind of feel like it's the opposite since in bullet hells you have to follow a very strict plan to avoid death. You can't really play something like Ketsui based on sheer reflexes.

[Captain]

Only if you actually bother memorizing patterns.

[nasty_wolverine]

Scoring in Ketsui and any DDP game is heavily based on routing, in the later stages survival is based on cancelling with larger enemies. In DOJ, DFK + BL, AKS, you have to activate special and even deactivate for max points and survival. That sounds like strategy to me.

[Straielst]

I'm personally a fan of various works that belong to Cave (Saidaioujou being my recent favorite), but I see them as refiners more than iterators, or innovators in the present. Which, don't misconstrue what I'm saying as that is far from bad.

- Doujin shmups seem to be all heavily inspired by CAVE.

I really can't say all are (ones such as Crimson Clover obviously are though), but ones such as Astebreed, Akashicverse, Hellsinker, various Touhous, maybe Nyaha x Kai 2, and the like have definite distinctions.
It's really just, and I might be a minority with this conclusion, that vertical shmups are much more incestuous than their horizontal shmup counterparts. So it can be fairly easy to draw similarities between almost all of them (to varying extents of course).

For me it's sad to see variety or certain styles in gaming die.

With the fair majority of vertical shmups, style sure, variety, not so much.
Don't get me wrong, scoring mechanics differ, there can be differing game mechanics, stage structure can at times differ, enemy shot patterns/attack variations can vary as well, but overall most play very similarly to one another. There is no major distinctions, let's use fighters as an example (2-D fighters to increase the challenge), you have MB to SnK to UNIB to SF to TH13.5 which all feel very distinct when contrasted to one another.

[GaijinPunch]

Cave games aren't the pinnacle of the genre, that notion comes mostly from loud fanboys. They just survived more because they made compromises to reach a wider audience. There are many superb games from other companies and playing Cave titles shouldn't stop you from enjoying them.

Hmm... that's one take. I think they're considered the pinnacle of the genre b/c they continued making them:

1) With current standards
2) On admittedly dated hardware (but very well)
3) With tons of depth

#3 deserves an asterisk, as I know other guys have done this, and with Cave they got a little out of hand a few times (ESPGaluda II, for starters).

Whether any of that floats your boat, who knows, but it's easy to jump on the band wagon of someone that is still making the same genre... or at least were until recently.

[Hagane]

I'd say that much of that perceived depth is clutter and unnecessarily artificial scoring systems. "Simpler" scoring systems can end up having a lot of depth based on how hard it is to score well; there's no need to muddle things like Cave does. But perhaps they have to be that way due to the compromises I mentioned... they separate normal play from the scoring system so much to give newcomers a chance to clear the games.

To me Cave peaked at Ketsui, and while they made some decent games after that, they are very far from that level of finesse. And one big reason why I see it that way is because they managed to make a very challenging game with a rather straightforward risk / reward scoring system.

[nasty_wolverine]

I'd say that much of that perceived depth is clutter and unnecessarily artificial scoring systems. "Simpler" scoring systems can end up having a lot of depth based on how hard it is to score well; there's no need to muddle things like Cave does. But perhaps they have to be that way due to the compromises I mentioned... they separate normal play from the scoring system so much to give newcomers a chance to clear the games.

To me Cave peaked at Ketsui, and while they made some decent games after that, they are very far from that level of finesse. And one big reason why I see it that way is because they managed to make a very challenging game with a rather straightforward risk / reward scoring system.

As much as I love ketsui, I think cave had some good scoring systems in DFKBL and AKS. AKS(novice) is fun to play for score, keeps you own your toes, gather steel from here, deploy swords there. all good fun. DFKBL is just awesome. I have been playing Type B bomb alot lately and is just great. Just cancelling bullets and hypering aint gonna cut it for score, gotta cancel bullets at the right time.

tbh never been a fan of DDP chaining. atleast ketsui, dfkbl, aks, mushi games, even ibara to a certain give leeway when scoring. DDP/DOJ chaining is just brutal.

[ACSeraph]

I think I agree with Hagane about a lot of Cave scoring systems seeming overly-complex.

I was playing a few of the 360 Cave ports last night after not having played in a while (Pink Sweets, Muchi Pork, Espgaluda 2) and I was kind of struck by the fact that I really don't like them all that much. After thinking about it the only Cave games I particularly like are Ketsui and the two Mushi games. I think it's because those are the most straightforward "pure" shooting games they have made. DDP is also pretty straightforward but like pure_wolverine said the ultra strict chaining sucks a lot of the fun out of it.

After that I popped in Shooting Love and then Raiden 4. I couldn't help but feel that they were vastly superior to the Cave stuff I had just been playing. If we are to say that Cave is the pinaccle of the genre, then I agree with Hagane that the train stops at Ketsui.

[nasty_wolverine]

pure_wolverine

???

[GaijinPunch]

I won't disagree that their pinnacle was a while back... I'd still rate ESPGaluda quite high -- it was noob friendly, but didn't have 'separation' factor that the later games did. I don't think the scoring is too overly complex. Some are, clearly, but some of the more recent games didn't take a degree to figure out the math.

You also gotta consider they have to keep a dwindling community of players coming back to arcades to make them viable. You can't do that if you make a pussy system.

[ACSeraph]

pure_wolverine

???

Lol sorry that must be your alter ego nasty_wolverine*

And yeah I'm not saying complex systems are bad per se, just that it seems to me that Cave takes it a little too far sometimes. I actually still think Cave makes good games; I liked SDOJ. But I personally don't think they are really superior to the other few companies that are still putting out new shmups.

[Gingerzilla]

As an old noob to shooters I have to say that when I discovered Cave in the arcades here in Japan about 5 years back it got me right back into shooters. Before that I had played Raiden and other old games like R-trype thinking that was it. But then along came Cave and I really liked them. They have a nice way of leeching ¥100 coins from your pockets. they let a new player in and only wait till level 3 before they begin to punch you in the face.

Eventually I ended up buying a 360 to play them at home so I could get good or continue being crap in my case, it was either that or buy a arcade cab. But what Cave did was get me excited about the shooter genre. So I went back and discovered all the old shooters I used to play and heaps i hadn't and I discovered that I prefer the simpler type of shooter. For me I just need to survive and worry about scores later.

I guess it all depends on what kind of gamer you are, do you always need to play something new? Or can you rediscover the beauty in a something simpler from a different era. A good example with me was the Strikers 1945 game.

Fark it is awesome and it kicks my ass, not too sure why I like it. The graphics are kind of naff compared to all the cave titles and it's got a tenth of the bullets. But those bullets it does have hammers you just as bad as any bullet curtain. Something about how they come at you faster and break your heart when you cop one.

When it comes to something new, I have to say that Crimson Clover has taken the crown in the arcades from the latest DoDon Pachi (although cool and I love it on my xbox) i have to say. No bones about it that Cave is an important game company when it comes to blasting alien hoards but it stands on the shoulders of Giants. I just look forward to the next company that takes on the genre and makes that game that changes the game.

Cheers
G

[Stevas]

I agree with some of what has been said here about Cave perhaps over-complicating their scoring systems. I'd just like to point out: it doesn't help that, um, I'm not Japanese.

I tried to get back into EspGaluda 2 recently; man, that was painful. Aside from the fact that I'd previously got to the point where I was (almost) capable of fully utilising the systems (so, of course, the fact that I now completely suck due to memory-bleed winds me up way more than it should), just trying to (re)figure out what the hell is going on in that game is a nightmare anyway. (I can't remember, is there a little tutorial somewhere in that game? Like, a quick and basic explanation of what the buttons/modes do, just before you take control? Not that it would help me, of course - not Japanese, remember - I just wonder how... useful that could even be, in this game.)

It's a bit off-putting going back to most Cave games, I find. My enthusiasm drains somewhat on the realisation that, yes, I'm basically starting near enough from scratch again - and it doesn't help that I usually end up having to hit the net within five minutes of loading, while uttering "for fuck sake, how do you play this bloody game again?"

(Now has http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1896 bookmarked for such occasions.)

[gs68]

I had my CAVE phase for a while and then I just got burnt out and realized I don't find them fun anymore. Ketsui is pretty fun and mistake-forgiving, newer games just feel like the same rehashed bullet patterns with different scoring systems every time, with dull boss battles and scoring systems that just feel more frustrating (and restart-inducing) than fun. I'm sorta glad GameCenter got a SaiDOJ PCB, but after some time I just stopped forgetting it existed. My complaint from years ago about CAVE games feeling all same-y is rearing its head again.

Sad thing is, my opinion is of the minority amongst friends. If I say that I don't like CAVE all that much people cry fanboy/fangirl tears like I just slapped them in the face.

Nowadays I mostly play doujin shooters. Easier to get set up, generally cheap when they're available internationally and in digital form (physical copies are nice to stare at but purchasing one is often impractical), and there are plenty to choose from. The only console shmups I really bother with any more are Gradius II, G. ReBirth, G. Gaiden, and the JSS/Eschatos series. Even difficult-to-figure-out games like Hellsinker and Stellavanity have their own unique charms.

In that case, perhaps I should pick up the Yagawa CAVE games, e.g. the PS/MMP bundle? Problem is availability of them...

[VHS-porn]

Aren't Cave games just easier for beginners ? Because however satisfying my runs feel on games such as DoJ and(*) Mushihimesama, I always feel like vomit when I try games by other devs. I just can't do it.

[Stevas]

Sad thing is, my opinion is of the minority amongst friends. If I say that I don't like CAVE all that much people cry fanboy/fangirl tears like I just slapped them in the face.

If I said that, all I'd get from ANYONE I'VE EVER KNOWN is a "what the fuck are you even on about?"

[gs68]

Aren't Cave games just easier for beginners ? Because however satisfying my runs feel on games such as DoJ an Mushihimesama, I always feel like vomit when I try games by other devs. I just can't do it.

I will say that I love that CAVE put novice modes on their 360 ports. Too bad only two of them (MushiFutari and Esp2) have novice-friendly prices and availability; the rest are either costly due to being non-rerelease imports or out of fucking print.

[VHS-porn]

I will say that I love that CAVE put novice modes on their 360 ports. Too bad only two of them (MushiFutari and Esp2) have novice-friendly prices and availability; the rest are either costly due to being non-rerelease imports or out of fucking print.

I wouldn't know about that since I only play using MAME and on default difficulty, but considering how easy it is to get better at them I do wonder what the purpose of novice mode would be. Holding newbies down and preventing any progress from taking place ?

[Kollision]

Aren't Cave games just easier for beginners ? Because however satisfying my runs feel on games such as DoJ and(*) Mushihimesama, I always feel like vomit when I try games by other devs. I just can't do it.

Maybe this is one of the reasons why the misconception still exists that danmakus are impossible?
I've yet to find a bullet hell I can't beat with the right amount of dedication. But old school shit? I've given up on quite a few!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I wouldn't know about that since I only play using MAME and on default difficulty, but considering how easy it is to get better at them I do wonder what the purpose of novice mode would be. Holding newbies down and preventing any progress from taking place ?

The Novice modes let you get the hang of scoring more easily with less difficulty in the bullet patterns. You can learn to grasp the scoring and then move on to the real game. Touhou games for instance tend to have some pretty serious scoreplaying in their Easy difficulty, a lot of people have worked just as hard for high scores in that mode as in Normal, Hard, Lunatic.

[Bananamatic]

I wouldn't know about that since I only play using MAME and on default difficulty, but considering how easy it is to get better at them I do wonder what the purpose of novice mode would be. Holding newbies down and preventing any progress from taking place ?

pretty much, the novice modes are easy to the point of insulting the player

you won't get much better by playing easy stuff and scoring when you can't even 1cc an easy game is pointless

[gs68]

Except I have friends who want to play shmups but cannot stand the difficulty of most of them. I think that's a perfectly valid viewpoint to have. =/

Not everyone progresses super-fast like you folks, you know.

[Bananamatic]

and if you put it down immediately as too hard you won't progress at all

of course it's too hard when beginners don't know shit about theory and flail around with a single aimed bullet on the screen
every newbie should be also told that there is no "super japanese skill", only thousands of hours put into the genre

[VHS-porn]

every newbie should be also told that there is no "super japanese skill", only thousands of hours put into the genre

Exactly ! Thats what I would have wanted to hear when I first started.

[gs68]

and if you put it down immediately as too hard you won't progress at all

Some people don't care about being super duper amazing and just want to play the game for recreation. As long as they aren't forcing their playstyle on others, I couldn't care less if they spent ten credits getting to stage 3.

every newbie should be also told that there is no "super japanese skill", only thousands of hours put into the genre

Though, you do make a good point there. If my friends are complaining about not being good at games, I tell them, "practice a lot, use stage select, etc."

[VHS-porn]

Well yeah, but it's something different then. What really makes me angry is the kind of people posting novices 1CC in "I did it", but someone playing for fun wouldn't be on this forum I think.

[gs68]

playing for fun

Hoo boy.

I mean, I've nothing against people who want to play games at the recreational/casual level as I mentioned earlier, but saying one "plays for fun" carries the implication that their way is the only way to have fun and everyone else is doing it wrong.

[VHS-porn]

I don't get it, sorry (:
Even I think when I do not play for score or clear I'm playing for fun, I mean the main reason I'm playing at that time is to have fun.
When I'm scoring, I still have fun, but I'm not playing for fun...
Seems ok to use that expression to me, but english aint my main language so maybe I'm missing the point

[gs68]

I think the point is, most people do play for fun, what one considers fun may not be enjoyable at all for another.

(Plus if playing shooting games at a high level wasn't fun then we'd have no high score scene here )

[Bananamatic]

You can even creditfeed second loops for recreation(and improve much faster in the process)

in general when you're just practicing random stuff for fun it's a good idea to play stuff above what you can currently clear
and that's how the "touhou guys" happened