Delay in the activation of the focus movement

[Elaphe]

There's a deliberate delay in the activation of the focus movement in Cave shmups. Focus movement happens when you press the fire button and do not release it. Then the ships moves slower, for precise control. The problem I've noticed is that the time between the moment you keep the button pressed and the actual slowdown of the movement is too long. I understand that it cannot be inmediate, because you could activate it by accident, but a few milliseconds would be enough and would improve the gameplay. Don't you think so?

[AntiFritz]

Hold down C for laser/focus/slow then. Problem solved.

EDIT: Meant to say hold down C for automatic fire and then hold down A to focus at the same time. Instead of changing between tapping and holding A which introduces the delay.

[trap15]

I disagree.

[chum]

One of the many problems of Cave games.

Hold down C for laser/focus/slow then. Problem solved.

Doesn't change a thing.

A lot of people don't seem to notice this problem at all. Weird!

[Icarus]

A lot of people don't seem to notice this problem at all. Weird!

Many of us don't consider it a problem.

[chum]

It's obviously not a positive thing, you'd have more freedom to control the way you want if it wasn't there. Persistence can get you used to anything.

Problem or not, some people don't even recognize that this feature exists in the first place. That's what I thought was weird.

[AntiFritz]

A lot of people don't seem to notice this problem at all. Weird!

Many of us don't consider it a problem.

Really? I found the delay so annoying in daifukkatsu for odd times I wasn't using full auto.

[Eaglet]

I'm annoyed by this in God Mode.
Especially with the sometimes ridiculous slowdown.

[Icarus]

Really? I found the delay so annoying in daifukkatsu for odd times I wasn't using full auto.

If I was annoyed by every little quirk found in shooting games, I'd play exactly none of them.

[nasty_wolverine]

I think DFK/BL has instant laser if you hold autofire and shot.

[ratikal]

I only found this problem noticeable in the original Dodonpachi even with the A/C configuration. Other than that, I really don't notice it in later Cave games...

[Jeneki]

How fast of a transition are we hoping for here? Personally, I'd be pretty annoyed if I was tapping A and kept going in and out of focus movement.

[SuperSoaker360]

For me it's less noticeable in the Dodonpachi games since the laser feels near-instant to me. But it does bother me in other CAVE titles like Futari and Galuda.

They should do it like Eden's Aegis: As long as you're holding down the auto-fire button, when you hold down shot you move slow instantly.

[AntiFritz]

Really? I found the delay so annoying in daifukkatsu for odd times I wasn't using full auto.

If I was annoyed by every little quirk found in shooting games, I'd play exactly none of them.

I don't remember saying "man this is soo annoying to the extent that I don't think I can stand playing the game ever". Just that I found it fairly annoying.

[Icarus]

I don't remember saying "man this is soo annoying to the extent that I don't think I can stand playing the game ever". Just that I found it fairly annoying.

You didn't. I'm just making a comment.

[AntiFritz]

I don't remember saying "man this is soo annoying to the extent that I don't think I can stand playing the game ever". Just that I found it fairly annoying.

You didn't. I'm just making a comment.

My mistake then.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I think DFK/BL has instant laser if you hold autofire and shot.

This.

The delay I think is intentional - in DDP the slowdown doesn't kick until after the laser starts firing, so maybe it's meant to let you get short laser bursts off without slowing down too much? DFK style instant switching with rapid + shot is better though.

What annoys me more is how you can't immediately go into laser in a lot of games; pressing and holding shot from a non-firing state sends out a few rapid bursts before the laser kicks in, and the initial shots can accidentally kill something you didn't want to. This mostly matters in Progear where killing via rapid spits out rings instead of gems, and if you wanted a gem cancel you need to avoid killing with the rapid shots. Futari notably avoids this (which is a good thing as the Original/Ultra scoring is around killing enemies with the 'right' shot type). If you're not shooting and you press and hold shot, there's actually a delay before it instantly uses the laser without any rapid shots as far as I remember.

[rjosal]

Yeah, I always wondered about this... You have 3 buttons. You have shot, laser and bomb. Oh no not enough! Guess we'll make one button do 2 of those things. And make another button do one of the same things. I guess it's so you can put the game in 2 button cabs, but those are pretty well gone by now. It doesn't bother me though.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, I always wondered about this... You have 3 buttons. You have shot, laser and bomb. Oh no not enough! Guess we'll make one button do 2 of those things. And make another button do one of the same things. I guess it's so you can put the game in 2 button cabs, but those are pretty well gone by now. It doesn't bother me though.

You're forgetting about the 4 button games like Galuda or DFK. 3 buttons is certainly more common than 2, but not all cabs have 4 buttons. The method of having A do shot and laser means it's best on a 4 button cab but still entirely playable on a 3 button setup. The tap shot/hold shot thing's been around for ages so Cave's also appealing to people who are used to that by offering the best of both worlds. Really, DFK does it best by having shot to laser transition instantly if you're holding down rapid fire, but the slight transition isn't really a major hindrance by any means.

[n0rtygames]

I think DFK/BL has instant laser if you hold autofire and shot.

This.

The delay I think is intentional - in DDP the slowdown doesn't kick until after the laser starts firing, so maybe it's meant to let you get short laser bursts off without slowing down too much? DFK style instant switching with rapid + shot is better though.

What annoys me more is how you can't immediately go into laser in a lot of games; pressing and holding shot from a non-firing state sends out a few rapid bursts before the laser kicks in, and the initial shots can accidentally kill something you didn't want to. This mostly matters in Progear where killing via rapid spits out rings instead of gems, and if you wanted a gem cancel you need to avoid killing with the rapid shots. Futari notably avoids this (which is a good thing as the Original/Ultra scoring is around killing enemies with the 'right' shot type). If you're not shooting and you press and hold shot, there's actually a delay before it instantly uses the laser without any rapid shots as far as I remember.

Should probably save most of this for dev forum but this is actually something I've implemented in my latest for these exact reasons. Futari being a big reason for doing so in fact. Logic is pretty simple:-

* Upon pressing button.. nothing happens
* Upon releasing button - shots are fired
* If shot button is pressed again within X frames, another volley of shots are fired
* Hold button for duration and you go in to focus
* Holding rapid fire reduces laser delay to instant

End result is:
tap,release = shot
tap,tap,tap = shot
tap,tap,tap, hold = few shots then laser
hold,..... = no shots and laser

[VHS-porn]

I don't see how this could be an issue, the delay is part of the gameplay, once you get used to it you are indeed free to move in any way you want.
I mean, give me one situation where such a thing would be problematic...

[Casey120]

Making it shorter fucks up your short fire bursts, it's perfect as it is .

[IseeThings]

you could easily argue it's a design feature..

if every game had 'perfect' response and 'perfect' controls it would be unnatural, the ships would lack character, uniqueness, the quirks that make them what they are.

if you rewind back to the 80s / 90s computers you'll see the entire difficulty of a lot of games comes from having to master the controls because characters are slow to turn, or slow to jump or can only attack when standing etc. this still applies today, but it was a lot more obvious back then IMHO (although look at most racing games today, each car has it's own handling, if you want to be good with that car you have to master that)

those decisions and quirks are what made the games what they are.. what made it necessary to learn and then master each and every one if you wanted to complete them.

[NzzpNzzp]

It's there so people can play on two button cabs. It's not a deliberate attempt to make it harder to control your ship. That'd just be stupid.

[n0rtygames]

It's there so people can play on two button cabs.

Hurrah! This is something that gets forgotten a lot. These are arcade games after all... If anything, it's a good design feature allowing an operator to run it on almost any cabinet configuration

You can't deny though, that various other mechanics have stemmed from this and although the games are still designed to work as 2 button games -- complaints like the OPs have been taken in to account and catered for (See: DFK as mentioned)

[horaceappleton]

It's integral to the feel and challenge of the game. Controlled movement and increased firepower (at the cost of speedy movement) is an important resource to use judiciously. Putting in a delay (that may also serve other purposes, like allowing for two-button control) changes how you can use it: for example, you can't make hyper-controlled reflex dodges and you can't activate your more powerful weapon the moment a strong enemy appears at the top of the screen.

It's sort of like asking "why do Mario's fireballs bounce? Wouldn't it be better if they went straight?" "Better" is beside the point: it's just a fact that makes the game the way it is.

[To Far Away Times]

On an arcade stick I find it easier to play tapping the fire button rather than using two different fire buttons. I've got no complaints.