NESRGB board available now

[Evilmaxwar]

I also use heatgun to remove chips. It is super quick and if you do it right it is safer that doing it by hand imho.

I direct the heat gun at the pins under the board while holding the chip with a DIP extractor. You will feel it start to wiggle around when the solder flows at which point you can extract it easily. It is important however that all the solder holes are completely melted otherwise you could damage pins or pads.

[leonk]

If you were to offer not-quite-SCART cables missing this PCB, would they be priced significantly lower? I don't have any actual SCART TVs, only a scaler and an RGB-to-component transcoder, which both (AFAIK) ignore SCART pin 8. Might not be worth considering if the savings would add up to a dollar or so, but if a more limited cable could be offered for a decent discount, there might be interest.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that found this interesting (for us folks living in non-SCART world). As far as I understand it, the NESRGB sends 5V on pin 5 of the 8P mini DIN. This 5V gets pumped up to 12V inside the custom SCART cable and sent out on pin 8 of the SCART connector. By convention, 12V on SCART pin 8 tells SCART TVs that the signal is ON and of 4:3 aspect ratio.

If you live in North America or do not use SCART devices (e.g. use a PVM, BVM or other non-SCART RGB display device) then the 5V output of the NESRGB is useless to you. Please don't hook it up the the 8P DIN!

In fact, at this point, using the 8P DIN might not be a good choice for you. I was thinking of avoid SCART and DIN all together, and installing 4 RCA jacks (R, G, B, sync) + 8mm stereo jack. This way, I can use standard 4 RCA cables to feed my PVM. Heck, this might be a good idea moving forward with all retro consoles. I'll start a separate thread on this forum, as to not to hijack this fine thread.

[shadowkn55]

Viletim, can you offer discounted shipping if i order 2 pcbs??

The shipping price is good for up to 350g. You can order several boards and you only need to pay the shipping price once.

[game-tech.us]

I ordered 7 boards yesterday morning and have already sold (reserved) all of them!!!!
I think I may have to up my order!

I actually plan to use the snes multi out on at least a couple consoles and a regular euro scart cord so I'm curious how the board caps can be handled.

I also ordered an adapter board, but want to see if it will make it fit in the US top loader, the ppu's are not in the same place on both machines though...

[Konsolkongen]

If you live in North America or do not use SCART devices (e.g. use a PVM, BVM or other non-SCART RGB display device) then the 5V output of the NESRGB is useless to you. Please don't hook it up the the 8P DIN!

If you're using a SCART to BNC adapter pin 8 and 16 (the ones that tell the TV to switch to RGB and 4:3) won't connect to anything. So there's nothing to worry about.

[leonk]

1.) Is the extra voltage regulator purely a precaution, or did you actually experience overheating issues with the NES's 7805 when only using it? (If so I'd rather just put a bigger heatsink on it to reduce the amount of wires)

I measured about 12v on the regulator input of my Mattel NES powered with its original Australian AC adapter. This means my NESRGB board, which draws about 120mA will add an additional (12-5)*0.12 = 0.84 watts to the regulator power dissipation. My prototype, when powered from the internal regulator, made the regulator heat sink hot enough to burn my fingers.

When you measured 120mA draw, did that include the power required to drive the pump inside the SCART output cable? How much current does it draw?

[lettuce]

Damn all scart cable sold out. Any ideas when your going more stock in?

[ccovell]

I've heard of the palette difference between the playchoice10 but don't really know WHAT those difference are. Sad that many playchoice 10's had to die to RBG the NES.

Here's the composite NES compared to the PC10/Famicom Titler RGB palette:

[shadowkn55]

Don't forget this travesty too:

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthrea ... ost3597775




And the owner of the melted AV Famicom makes his appearance.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthrea ... ost3611338

[rCadeGaming]

Ordered! Will probably get a second one later. Tim, is there any defined timeline these will be available for?

If you live in North America or do not use SCART devices (e.g. use a PVM, BVM or other non-SCART RGB display device) then the 5V output of the NESRGB is useless to you.

You can power a sync stripper with it, in case you need separate H and V sync for a transcoder or something.

Here is something I picked up for desoldering:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... Id=2062731

This works fairly well for through-hole stuff; much better than a non-heated vacuum method or just a desoldering wick (or a heat gun). You can get IC's to fall right off the board with a little practice.

I've used an electronic desoldering station at work which provides a strong vacuum at the push of a button, digital temperature control, etc. Obviously those are much better. If you're amateur who only works on this kind of thing on a sporadic basis it's hard to justify the expense though.

I have to agree with those who are giving crap to Drakon. Drakon, your work is not on a professional level, but its your attitude which is the most unprofessional. You are getting lots of good advice, but you're being stubborn and defensive because you feel backed into a corner. Instead of taking this advice and improving, you're making foolish arguments trying to defend your shoddy methods.

Anyhow, I think this topic has taken up too much space here. This thread should be about Tim's great work. If Drakon doesn't change his tune, maybe we should post seperate warning threads about his work around the community, but let's leave it alone here.

[shadowkn55]

I like to use this desoldering iron over the Radio Shack one. I used to use the RS one but it's overall not very good. The suction is ok but cleaning out the bulb isn't convenient and the tips wear out super fast.

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores ... 2168261_-1

Replacement tip:

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores ... Id=2168270

The piston is easy to empty on this one and it doesn't have an awkward shape so it's easier to hold.

[rCadeGaming]

I just make sure to quickly blow out the solder into a trash can or something right after sucking some up and it doesn't build up in the bulb; and wipe the tip off on a sponge regularly. It's not optimal, it's just super cheap and was readily available in a brick and mortar store. Maybe when it wears out I'll try the Jameco one.

If I was charging people money for my work I'd get a quality desoldering station.

[shadowkn55]

That's the trap with Radio Shack. There is always one in reaching distance and the price is pretty good at first. I like to consider it the harbor freight of electronics. If you only need it once or twice, it's perfectly fine. Long term, go with something higher quality. Doesn't have to be some super expensive soldering station. The xytronic soldering iron with a 1/64" tip works wonders even for some surface mount stuff.

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores ... _116572_-1

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores ... llDownView

[rCadeGaming]

That's the trap with Radio Shack. There is always one in reaching distance and the price is pretty good at first. I like to consider it the harbor freight of electronics.

This is true. Well kind of, their prices on most things aren't any good anymore. I almost always by things in advance online, but happened to see the desoldering iron when I was in their for an emergency. The worst part is that they have no stock of parts anymore, they just want to sell you cell phones and that kind of crap.

[frsj8112]

Hi!

First I would like to say: Good Job on the product!!

I'm planning on using my AV Famicom with the NESRGB and the adapter. Will you provide an instruction for that?

Thanks

Questions answered here: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

viletim: When will the board be shipped out, will you notify when it has been shipped?

Thanks

[viletim]

I have sold out of both NESRGB board and cables. Thank you everybody for your orders. It will take me a little while to get on top of everything so please be patient.

I will also organise for more to be made but cannot give a date at this time.

I'm planning on using my AV Famicom with the NESRGB and the adapter. Will you provide an instruction for that?

I don't have one myself, but I'm sure you won't have to wait long before somebody will relate their experience.

viletim: When will the board be shipped out, will you notify when it has been shipped?

Yes, I'll send an email to each customer once I've sent the package. Nothing will be sent out this week. Please be patient. I'm not used to dealing with so many orders at once.

If you live in North America or do not use SCART devices (e.g. use a PVM, BVM or other non-SCART RGB display device) then the 5V output of the NESRGB is useless to you. Please don't hook it up the the 8P DIN!

Just about every game console A/V connector features a 5V dc power source on one pin. It's very useful for a lot of reasons. Perhaps your non-SCART display device will require a sync stripper circuit, for example.

In fact, at this point, using the 8P DIN might not be a good choice for you. I was thinking of avoid SCART and DIN all together, and installing 4 RCA jacks (R, G, B, sync) + 8mm stereo jack. This way, I can use standard 4 RCA cables to feed my PVM. Heck, this might be a good idea moving forward with all retro consoles. I'll start a separate thread on this forum, as to not to hijack this fine thread.

Suit yourself. My goal is to minimise the amount of case modification. That, and a multitude of large protruding connectors always looks so ugly to me.

When you measured 120mA draw, did that include the power required to drive the pump inside the SCART output cable? How much current does it draw?

When the cable is connected to a SCART TV it will draw about 22mA from the 5V line (2mA for CVBS status/pin8, 20mA for RGB status/pin16). This is not included in the figure above.

I actually plan to use the snes multi out on at least a couple consoles and a regular euro scart cord so I'm curious how the board caps can be handled.

The original SNES SCART cable is double terminated and thus incompatible with the video driver circuit in the NESRGB.

[frsj8112]

Hi viletim!

Many thanks for your response.

[mufunyo]

Just about every game console A/V connector features a 5V dc power source on one pin. It's very useful for a lot of reasons. Perhaps your non-SCART display device will require a sync stripper circuit, for example.

That seems a bit silly, considering your board has an output for TTL CSync. Sure, you can tap CVid instead and use a sync stripper, but that will just increase power draw and material cost.

Speaking of, can you please answer this question?

Also, if I wire two RGB outputs in parallel each with their own sets of 75 ohm resistors, could I make do without a video splitter (for simultaneous capture and display), or would that overload the drivers?

I know you can do this with the THS7314/7374 ICs, but not sure about the BH7236AF IC Tim is using.

I'm interested in splitting the output into 15KHz VGA (using TTL CSync) and SCART simultaneously. SCART distribution amps are rare and prohibitively expensive (every once in a while a Cypress SC-AMP2 pops up on eBay for about €150).

[viletim]

Just about every game console A/V connector features a 5V dc power source on one pin. It's very useful for a lot of reasons. Perhaps your non-SCART display device will require a sync stripper circuit, for example.

That seems a bit silly, considering your board has an output for TTL CSync. Sure, you can tap CVid instead and use a sync stripper, but that will just increase power draw and material cost.

You're correct, but this connection wasn't designed specifically for the NESRGB. I have more interesting RGB / amplifier / DAC boards coming. I will always include the same connectors and TTL csync may not be available sometimes.

Speaking of, can you please answer this question?

Also, if I wire two RGB outputs in parallel each with their own sets of 75 ohm resistors, could I make do without a video splitter (for simultaneous capture and display), or would that overload the drivers?

I know you can do this with the THS7314/7374 ICs, but not sure about the BH7236AF IC Tim is using.

I'm interested in splitting the output into 15KHz VGA (using TTL CSync) and SCART simultaneously. SCART distribution amps are rare and prohibitively expensive (every once in a while a Cypress SC-AMP2 pops up on eBay for about €150).

It cannot, unfortunately. For the same reason PAL Super Nintendo SCART cables won't work -- the RGB driver won't manage a double terminated load. Some pro monitors let you switch off the termination for this very reason but the feature doesn't exist on SCART equipment.

[Drakon]

Drakon, so what's your opinion ? Is it worth upgrading from a PPU-RGB mod to the NESRGB board except for the palette options ?

Absolutely. This kit does everything better including cutting down on costs. No more video distortion, the composite pallette looks way better, the circuits on this kit are done properly using a clock divider for the colour subcarrier to generate the best possible s-video. The fact that it uses the real composite ppu means everything runs 100% how it should. Before I was romhacking games to either remove or replace colour emphasis bits and the duplicate pallette entries that the rgb ppu is missing. Viletim was careful to use hardware that consumes the least amount of power possible to minimize the strain on the regulator. I've quickly compared the s-video colour encoding to the original composite output of an unmodified av famicom and the colours looked identical with the composite pallette. From every perspective this kit is done right and it easily outshines the old rgb ppu mod.

Because the f-labo kit is no longer going to be used I even bothered finding a way to adjust the on board audio circuit of the av famicom so the audio balance with carts that use audio chips (vrc6 for example) is much better sounding. Previously the f-labo kit audio circuit was used to fix this issue.

For anyone who's interested I came up with a wiring idea for a 3 way on/on/on toggle switch to make installing the pallette selection switch easier:



I prefer using a toggle switch over the slider switch, smaller hole in the case, easier to make the hole, and it works just as well. The toggle switch also fits more nicely in the av famicom / nes 2 between the case and the heatsink.

Thanks for posting the N-G.com thread, Lemony...I never did my research before when the issue of "Drakon is a dick" came up. I hope the guy gets some equipment and mends his ways (I don't mean "with liberal application of hot glue").

I wanted to echo another sentiment from the N-G thread which occurred to me while reading this thread; I think a "modding best practices" thread would be great.

Brb, researching who manufactures glue sticks for my next round of commodities trading

Thanks for treating me like it is possible for me to improve. I am taking comments seriously and all future commissions I'll just tack down wires with small amounts of hot glue leaving the soldered connections open making it much easier to redo or change any work. I agree it makes more sense to tack wires down instead of covering them, it's cleaner and makes it easier to change any wiring or add components.

[mufunyo]

It cannot, unfortunately. For the same reason PAL Super Nintendo SCART cables won't work -- the RGB driver won't manage a double terminated load. Some pro monitors let you switch off the termination for this very reason but the feature doesn't exist on SCART equipment.

That's a bummer. I suppose I'll try my hand at hacking up a cheap VGA distro amp to work with SCART (no audio). Also, if you could sell the charge pump PCB separately, Famicom AV users could use it to convert their multi-AV-connector J-RGB21 cables into euro SCART cables (pin 10 on the multi-AV is +5V that maps to pin 11 on the RGB21 cable). I know you recommend your DIN solution, but don't underestimate people's desires to keep their Famicom AV shell stock. I know I sure as hell won't be drilling any holes into mine. Heck, there's even the option of adding the multi-AV bracket from a Famicom AV into a top loading NES.

I am taking comments seriously and all future commissions I'll just tack down wires with small amounts of hot glue leaving the soldered connections open making it much easier to redo or change any work. I agree it makes more sense to tack wires down instead of covering them, it's cleaner and makes it easier to change any wiring or add components.

Next step: tack wires down with insulation tape instead of hot glue.

[Drakon]

It cannot, unfortunately. For the same reason PAL Super Nintendo SCART cables won't work -- the RGB driver won't manage a double terminated load. Some pro monitors let you switch off the termination for this very reason but the feature doesn't exist on SCART equipment.

That's a bummer. I suppose I'll try my hand at hacking up a cheap VGA distro amp to work with SCART (no audio). Also, if you could sell the charge pump PCB separately, Famicom AV users could use it to convert their multi-AV-connector J-RGB21 cables into euro SCART cables (pin 10 on the multi-AV is +5V that maps to pin 11 on the RGB21 cable). I know you recommend your DIN solution, but don't underestimate people's desires to keep their Famicom AV shell stock. I know I sure as hell won't be drilling any holes into mine.

I am taking comments seriously and all future commissions I'll just tack down wires with small amounts of hot glue leaving the soldered connections open making it much easier to redo or change any work. I agree it makes more sense to tack wires down instead of covering them, it's cleaner and makes it easier to change any wiring or add components.

Next step: tack wires down with insulation tape instead of hot glue.

I agree with you I'd prefer to drill no extra holes into the av famicom and just jump the kit for the composite pallette and leave it like that. The av famicom can have this kit installed with no case holes if you're okay with not changing the pallette.

[mufunyo]

I agree with you I'd prefer to drill no extra holes into the av famicom and just jump the kit for the composite pallette and leave it like that. The av famicom can have this kit installed with no case holes if you're okay with not changing the pallette.

Speaking of the palette, can you show some frame grabs of what the "improved" palette looks like compared to "natural"? Based off viletim's description (games look better, more variety) it sounds really interesting to me. It could offer an extra "edge" over just the picture sharpness/clarity advantage that naturally comes from the move to RGB.

[Drakon]

I agree with you I'd prefer to drill no extra holes into the av famicom and just jump the kit for the composite pallette and leave it like that. The av famicom can have this kit installed with no case holes if you're okay with not changing the pallette.

Speaking of the palette, can you show some frame grabs of what the "improved" palette looks like compared to "natural"? Based off viletim's description (games look better, more variety) it sounds really interesting to me. It could offer an extra "edge" over just the picture sharpness/clarity advantage that naturally comes from the move to RGB.

http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/

"Improved is from the FCEUX emulator. There is more variety in the colours. Some games look significantly better with this one."

Fire up FCEUX and set that "improved" palette unless it's really important that you must see it from the real thing.

Once you get the kit even if you don't want to use the palette selection switch changing the jumper to a different palette just requires opening the case and soldering the connection to a different solder pad. I recommend people jump the kit palette selection manually and seeing how the palettes look before deciding the install the palette switch in your case.

[rCadeGaming]

This was a great post here:

I've heard of the palette difference between the playchoice10 but don't really know WHAT those difference are. Sad that many playchoice 10's had to die to RBG the NES.

Here's the composite NES compared to the PC10/Famicom Titler RGB palette:

I'd really like to see the improved palette compared to the composite one like that. (and of course some in game comparisons wouldn't hurt)

[RGB32E]

I have sold out of both NESRGB board and cables. Thank you everybody for your orders. It will take me a little while to get on top of everything so please be patient.

Congrats Tim! About how many NESRGB boards did you have for sale? Good thing I placed an order on Sunday!

[mufunyo]

Fire up FCEUX and set that "improved" palette unless it's really important that you must see it from the real thing.

Output from the real thing is obviously better . But I'll settle for what I found after a quick google:

FCEUX


Nestopia


Going off that, I'll probably hard-wire my palette to "improved".

EDIT: If you could make your own palettes, I'd probably go with something like this:

[RGB32E]

It cannot, unfortunately. For the same reason PAL Super Nintendo SCART cables won't work -- the RGB driver won't manage a double terminated load. Some pro monitors let you switch off the termination for this very reason but the feature doesn't exist on SCART equipment.

That's a bummer. I suppose I'll try my hand at hacking up a cheap VGA distro amp to work with SCART (no audio). Also, if you could sell the charge pump PCB separately, Famicom AV users could use it to convert their multi-AV-connector J-RGB21 cables into euro SCART cables (pin 10 on the multi-AV is +5V that maps to pin 11 on the RGB21 cable). I know you recommend your DIN solution, but don't underestimate people's desires to keep their Famicom AV shell stock. I know I sure as hell won't be drilling any holes into mine. Heck, there's even the option of adding the multi-AV bracket from a Famicom AV into a top loading NES.

If you're clever enough you can build a SNES RGB cable with no external resistors or capacitors using two standard AV cables! Pop open the SNES connector hoods, remove the pins, and add the pins from the second cable for RGB, and swap composite video for CSYNC if desired. That way you can automatically get external audio on RCAs, and wire the RGBS/Cv coax cables to your output connector (SCART, RGB21, 8 pin mini din/XRGB-mini, etc.) and you're DONE! That way each signal is on it's own mini coax.

Instead of hacking apart a VGA distribution amplifier you could use a Micomsoft XSYNC-1. At it's core it uses a THS7374.
Micomsoft Shop: http://micomsoft.co.jp/shop/xsync-1.html
Solaris Japan (orders outside of Japan): http://www.solarisjapan.com/xsync-1-21- ... separator/

[rCadeGaming]

Mufunyo, does the Nestopia pallete represent the standard composite one?

[rCadeGaming]

The problem is simply that you can't reason with an unreasonable person. If we want to keep trying, can we take it to a different thread? Seriously.