Bare Knuckle fans, something I wanna know

[Edmond Dantes]

Okay, so I've heard a lot that Streets of Rage III was a terrible localization of a brilliant brawler, but no amount of Googling has found me an article or a web page describing what exactly was so bad abour SOR3--not even Sega-16's article on the series, which barely says more than "SOR3 killed the series."

So, someone, tell me. What happened?

Thanks in advance.

[Bar81]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streets_of_Rage_3

[null1024]

The difficulty balance was screwy as hell. Easy mode is piss easy [and shortened], default and up is stupid [harder than BK3's hard setting]. Ash was removed as a boss.

SOR3's faster mechanics could have made it the most loved, but it's just viciously difficult.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

SoR3 also messed with the special gauge, vastly dropping the penalty for using a special on an empty bar. It was supposed to prevent special spamming as a cheesy tactic for getting through fights, but the health penalty is nearly meaningless in the american version now (especially when getting hit by things like the electric whips now does 1/3 of your lifebar). Bosses also have 3x as much health at the hardest setting as they did in the Japanese version. This is particularly bad with the Jet fight and the final boss, which both require some seriously cheesy tactics to get through unscathed.

The good ending path also lacks the best fight in the game, the fight with Shiva where he has the ability to block.

SOR3's faster mechanics could have made it the most loved

This is why Streets of Rage Remake is so popular. It's got the fast combat of SoR3 with the vastly better music of the first two games and great overall presentation. Playing through the SoR2 route on the hardest mode is a lot of fun.

[Ganelon]

Streets of Rage Online has a comprehensive list of differences: http://www.soronline.net/sor3_sor3vsbk3.htm

I don't think there are enough differences that you'll enjoy Bare Knuckle III if you hated Streets of Rage 3 but it's pretty clear which version fans prefer more.

As for SOR3 "killing the series," I think that's a mistaken case of cause-and-effect. SOR3 sales were poor but what's less known is that the US gaming majority didn't care about the game before release. SOR3 was one of my most anticipated games of all time but I remember being surprised that it was never on any top 10 reader polls. The censoring (removal of Ash and change of female enemy attire) was fairly well known before the US version's release but people weren't in much of an outrage back then as they would be nowadays, and the game wasn't hot news even when it was first announced in Japan.

My theory is that the impending releases of Mortal Kombat II and Super Street Fighter II sucked all the interest out of other fighting-related games by that time. Remember that Streets of Rage 2 was released after Street Fighter II got everyone in a brawling mood but before any solid fighters were available on the MD. I'd bet SOR2 would've experienced similarly lukewarm sales and "killed the series" had it been released around the time of Street Fighter II' Special Champion Edition and Eternal Champions.

[BrianC]

I don't think there are enough differences that you'll enjoy Bare Knuckle III if you hated Streets of Rage 3

I think the difficulty change in SoR3 is reason enough to enjoy BK3, even if you don't enjoy SoR3. There is no difficultly in SoR3 that is close to BK3's normal. Even a couple of the harder modes in BK3 feel more balanced in comparison to SoR3's normal. The more aggressive enemies combined with the extra damage and higher amount of enemy health, definitely make SoR3 feel less balanced.

[evil_ash_xero]

I never understood why they changed the character's color palettes. I mean, Axel's white t-shirt and blue jeans were like....well, it's like how Mega Man is blue. It's just weird to give him bee colors.

[BIL]

Terrified of being sued by Capcom after the Fighter's History debacle, maybe? Axl's brazen upgrade from white vest to Cody's white T in SORII may have been viewed unfavourably in hindsight!

[BrianC]

The funny thing is that Blaze's original palette is still used for player 2 in vs. mode in SoR 3.

[Ganelon]

I think the difficulty change in SoR3 is reason enough to enjoy BK3, even if you don't enjoy SoR3. There is no difficultly in SoR3 that is close to BK3's normal. Even a couple of the harder modes in BK3 feel more balanced in comparison to SoR3's normal. The more aggressive enemies combined with the extra damage and higher amount of enemy health, definitely make SoR3 feel less balanced.

That's why I used the word "hated." There's been a spreading online mentality over the years that SOR3's localization (difficulty, censoring, and other changes) is what doomed the game and series. I wanted to speak out against this perception: SOR3 wouldn't have suddenly become popular and well-liked even if it were the exact same game as BKIII because mainstream players had already passed the game by well before release despite more-than-adequate media coverage.

Difficulty is just one of a dozen elements in the game, and if Streets of Rage 3 were the only version in existence, many BKIII fans would probably still think it's a great game. I would still say that it's the best in the series. While SOR3's difficulty is quite a stretch from the original's, it's not noticeably different from that of numerous US arcade beat-em-ups in terms of boss endurance and enemy damage. The higher boss endurance is good at making sure players understand boss patterns and are not just randoming it out (although the repetition from the longer life bars does get old). The difficulty bump does its job of extending a rental game into something that'll take a week or two of practice to beat.

[Edmond Dantes]

Terrified of being sued by Capcom after the Fighter's History debacle, maybe?

Considering that Capcom _lost_ that lawsuit though...

[Leandro]

There's one thing I never noticed until someone told me recently: Axel wears the same colors as Adam from SOR1 in the western version of this game...

[BIL]

Considering that Capcom _lost_ that lawsuit though...

is joke!

Then again, there is some overlap between the case being heard and SORIII's US release date. Besides, "if at first you don't succeed" mirite? Copyrighting the generic blonde guy in a white T, blue jeans and sneakers could've been a most lucrative move.



Rising Generic!

There's one thing I never noticed until someone told me recently: Axel wears the same colors as Adam from SOR1 in the western version of this game...

Mind blown.

If only the sequels had actually kept Adam instead of ditching him for Captain 1990s Junior. Little kid in street fighting game = no. Little kid on rollerskates = nooo.

Unless he's a joke enemy who dies instantly after banging his head on the curb while attempting to throw a punch, and you can strategically position his trendy corpse so other enemies will trip over it. Now we're talking.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The funny thing is that Blaze's original palette is still used for player 2 in vs. mode in SoR 3.

It's not. Look more closely: the orange detailing in the original outfit has been replaced with white. The reds used also appear to be slightly brighter.

[BrianC]

The funny thing is that Blaze's original palette is still used for player 2 in vs. mode in SoR 3.

It's not. Look more closely: the orange detailing in the original outfit has been replaced with white. The reds used also appear to be slightly brighter.

ahh. I admit I haven't used vs. much and only saw the red palette in a screenshot. I'm glad M2's ports to 360 include the option to switch to BK3.

[Edmond Dantes]

Considering that Capcom _lost_ that lawsuit though...

is joke!

Yeah, but as an obsessive-compulsive follower of legal dramas (seriously you can't tear me away from the television when Perry Mason is on) I need to point stuff out!

Then again, there is some overlap between the case being heard and SORIII's US release date. Besides, "if at first you don't succeed" mirite? Copyrighting the generic blonde guy in a white T, blue jeans and sneakers could've been a most lucrative move.

Admittedly, I'm not sure if the case had already been decided by the time of SOR3, and if not then there could be some legitimate fear.

However, "if at first you don't succeed" doesn't really work in lawsuits. Trials set precedents, and effectively say "unless a future lawsuit is VERY different, then this is how they're all gonna go." This is why a lot of times they prefer to settle out-of-court--those don't prove anything and thus don't set any legal precedents.

At least, that's how I understand it, anyway.

[mosey]

Thanks to this thread I just played SoRR for the first time for two solid hours. It's bananas how good this is.

[Despatche]

about bk3's soundtrack... bk3 has a somewhat different style of its own, one that is neither superior nor inferior to bk1 or bk2, not even in technical merit. this "vastly inferior" talk is purely a bandwagon with no real thought behind it from anyone, probably not even the guy who started it. here's a great sign: general approval of the very similar the adventures of batman & robin (md) from the few who've even heard of the game.

but this thread and every thread about anything relating to "final fight and clones" is moot, for there is only violent storm, the true final fight 2 (and i like final fight 2)

[BIL]

However, "if at first you don't succeed" doesn't really work in lawsuits. Trials set precedents, and effectively say "unless a future lawsuit is VERY different, then this is how they're all gonna go." This is why a lot of times they prefer to settle out-of-court--those don't prove anything and thus don't set any legal precedents.

At least, that's how I understand it, anyway.

You are roughly correct! (assuming we're talking common law jurisdictions, of course)

Although, I'd give slightly better odds at copyrighting a distinctive costume than a generic "gruff karateka" archetype. And it doesn't get much more distinctive than "white T, blue jeans, sneakers (your choice of brand) and DIY bleaching kit!"



edit: Actually, it's marginally interesting that Axel's shirt is more of a vest in BKI/III than in II. Maybe even in JP Sega were treading carefully.

[andsuchisdeath]

SOR3 is a lot fun and a challenging 1cc for a console beat 'em up.

The higher difficulty and Axel's Adam cosplay outfit make the game slightly more novel than it's original incarnation (an underwhelming Bare Knuckle 2.5).

[Edmond Dantes]

Although, I'd give slightly better odds at copyrighting a distinctive costume than a generic "gruff karateka" archetype. And it doesn't get much more distinctive than "white T, blue jeans, sneakers (your choice of brand) and DIY bleaching kit!"

Actually, you'd have a hard time convincing a court that that's "distinctive" at all. A capable defense attorney would be quick to point out that you or I could walk into just about any store and purchase an outfit like that. Thus, the fashion clearly exists independently of Capcom's character, and in fact may have even been Capcom's inspiration--and so why can't it be Sega's inspiration too? This is in fact the argument Data East used to get off the hook.

The truth is copyright law is nowhere near as strict as people think it is--just think: this guy and this guy both aired on TV in the exact same year, and yet neither company ever thought of suing the other.

[BIL]

Edmond, your deadpan is indeed formidable. Now even I think I think Cody's got a distinctive costume. I just noticed I've been inadvertently cosplaying him all week, though I can't say the iconic plain white T is quite as flattering on me as on him, Axel or Hawk. But I do have much better taste in footwear. Probably why I've not had any threatening letters from Capcom just yet!

edit: actually, I always assumed Cody, Guy and Haggar are all in their work clothes, having gone straight from the dojo or office to start busting heads, not being "costumed" at all per se.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

about bk3's soundtrack... bk3 has a somewhat different style of its own, one that is neither superior nor inferior to bk1 or bk2

lol, no

BK3's soundtrack has awful, grating instrumentation that really doesn't use the sound chip well. A lot of the tracks sound like they're scraping metal or something, and I honestly can't think of many memorable tracks in BK3. There's nothing near as good as Violent Breathing, Go Straight or Dreamer on BK3's OST. It's supposedly going for a more experimental style, but so many of the songs just sound flat out discordant.

[BIL]

I think that's the third time this week I've seen Patchy-kun admonish people with "they just different is still good pls dun criticise oh also u bandwagonin" blandishments. I won't rip his head off about it like I did with Dracula XX though, unless he's stupid enough to bring it up again with me after reading this post.

SORIII's club music fucking blows and hamstrings a cool scene. It's embarrassing. Close but no cigar getting the MD to rave I'm afraid! I do kinda dig the first two stage 1 BGMs though. Volatile as fuck.

[stryc9]

Overall, the instrumentation in BK3 is the worst of the three, agreed, and the compositions on offer are mostly not as listenable as the first two games. Yet still some great tracks on there, like the boss music for Mona & Lisa and Break, and the construction site

I gotta say, the first entry to me always seemed to have the most realistic sounding instruments, but BK2 the compositions were at their peak.

Unfortunately the decision to use the track that plays in the club in BK3 was a foolish one. The section isn't short and the track grates like nothing else

What fucks BK3 the most in terms of sound has nothing to do with the music though, rather the clipping of samples when you kill enemies. I'm no MD sound programmer, but in BK3 the enemies scream as you dispatch them, rather than waiting to hit the ground; ie the death scream cuts in on the impact sample when it plays, If my memory serves me correct. Annoying.

[Ganelon]

BK3's soundtrack has awful, grating instrumentation that really doesn't use the sound chip well. A lot of the tracks sound like they're scraping metal or something, and I honestly can't think of many memorable tracks in BK3. There's nothing near as good as Violent Breathing, Go Straight or Dreamer on BK3's OST. It's supposedly going for a more experimental style, but so many of the songs just sound flat out discordant.

Your examples of great musical pieces suggest you prefer something with fast but not extremely fast tempo and something that has plenty of melody. Bare Knuckle III's soundtrack deliberately eschews that with with lots of super-fast, semi-tonal sequenced music. It's pretty much the antithesis of what you and many easygoing listeners are probably willing to hear.

I wouldn't listen much to BK3 music on its own but I think it thematically fits the game's atmosphere well. It's like how I don't care much for hip hop but find that the Fresh Prince opening theme fits perfectly with that show by setting a whimsical, hip mood. Or it's like how final bosses in RPGs are often accompanied by highly bombastic and discordant pieces to signify majesty and brutality respectively. BK3's music helps add an interesting degree of tension and uncertainty that contributes more to the game itself than some of the "beachside jog" tunes in previous games that—while I agree sound more pleasant—don't always make the journey feel weighted and threatening, at least not the tunes people seem to enjoy most.

For me, about 1/3 of BK3's soundtrack is too caustic but that's about in line with what I feel about BK1's soundtrack and slightly less consistent than BK2's. That said, the past 30 years of electronic dance music has clearly shown a shifting trend in taste from experimental techno to anthem trance, and that by itself can explain why BK2 with its mellow, agreeable pieces has the most commonly favored tracks in the series. All 3 soundtracks seem solid to me, Bare Knuckle 3 perhaps more impressive artistically with Yuzo Koshiro's process of extracting segments from thousands of automatically generated note sequences and editing just enough to sound appropriate without eliminating the experimental flavor.

[Damocles]

As someone may have mentioned, there's a dedicated SOR site out there detailing all the changes that were made during localization. Being that all I knew as a kid was SOR3, I just figured it was balls hard to begin with and I still loved it. Gotta love a dude who goes electro-Dhalsim on you.

That being said, I prefer neither version. A guy by the name of gsaurus created a patch for both versions which fixes a fair few bugs, increases roll distance on the JP version, and shows Roo by default on the character select screen. There are also versions out there that try and restore the bike sequences and missing portions of levels.

[Ed Oscuro]

Tempted to give BK3 another listen...dissonant music is fine but it has an uphill battle making an impact on your mind; people simply aren't as likely to have that kind of music engage their emotions like other music does. Whether that's a good or bad thing fits is dependent on the intent of the piece and its context. In short,

LOOKS MORE LIKE THE CAVE IS CHECKING US OUT

Dr. Quest has kindly demonstrated how the club theme seems like only the beginning of a theme as he can't get into a rhythm. And I'm not going to call Race a knuckle-dragger because he prefers not to have lasers in his eyes.

About the rest of the soundtrack: When I start listening to most of the tracks, I think "wow this is really good!" Then I remember that it's when you loop these that many are really uneven and grating on repeat listens. The first that came to mind, even before refreshing my memory with a new listen to the tracks, was the opening notes of "Crazy Train," which I didn't remember being so fast. It does fit the area, and so arguably does the rest of the track, but it's still not good to your ears at the very least. It almost manages to work up something like a techno fight anthem but then it loops again. Inga Rasen also has a sound that perfectly summons visions of high-tech laboratories - I expect this shows up in the section with the various bombs / control panels and whatever - and Moon sounds like it fits in a zoo, with something like a mix of a jungle and New York sidewalk beat. Still a forgettable tune, but at least not offensive like these others. I think Fuze and Dub Slash approach greatness at points, but I admit that it's just Dub Slash's intensity that distinguishes it from the others, and Fuze still suffers from unevenness that could've made it more effective listening. Happy Paradise sounds like some Phantasy Star Online shop music as reconstructed from Nostradamus' prophecies.

Edit - Is Yuzo Koshiro doing work under the Galactik Knights banner? See this embarrassing Go Straight remix.

[Edmond Dantes]

Dr. Quest has kindly demonstrated how the club theme seems like only the beginning of a theme as he can't get into a rhythm. And I'm not going to call Race a knuckle-dragger because he prefers not to have lasers in his eyes.

Okay, when you said "Dr. Quest" I was gonna make a joke, because I thought for sure you meant a character that just happened to have a coincidentally similar name... then you said "Race" and I was like, wait a minute...

Video suffers from a definite lack of Hadji. and Bandit. And Jessie--*gets shot because nobody likes Jessie*

[Khan]

For me personally the game felt it lacked the magic of SOR2, the music was no where near as memorable and the animations looked less fluid the difficulty was insane and the look of the chars was abit bland I found it fun to play as Roo.

I'd always in truth wanted to try playing through story mode with a boss char in SOR2 such as Abadede or as I like to call him The Ultimate warrior from WWF days