Seems all old school dev's will all be retired soon. :(

[Ganelon]

I still think the CollegeHumor video on Zelda was one of their best. Most of you have likely already seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbUqEPUZ-ds

[Ed Oscuro]

Hyrule is famed for its complex physics, and also for the simplicity of understanding them.

Swords and pots don't smash Link, whether they are held or thrown
Link holding the sword smashes the pot
Link holding the sword doesn't smash the knight
Link holding the sword doesn't smash the rock
Link throwing the pot smashes the pot
Link throwing the pot smashes the knight
Link throwing the sword smashes the Ganon
Link holding the hammer doesn't do anything but pound poles

No time to do a proper analysis, but Hyrule physics seem to be based on the difference between being Link or not being Link, and between throwing or holding, dependent on what's being used. Looking at the above pattern it seems that fire, for example, would have different effects dependent on whether it is thrown or held, and whether it is used by Link or not.

[BIL]

Hey at least you can clearly see all the units on the screen. It's functional - and at the end of the day isn't that all we really want?

No. If you depict a robo-stache on the cover, you'd better deliver!

[BryanM]

Not sure if this comment was sarcastic, but in case it wasn't...

See what I mean? These brahs need help. So much conspiracy theory mentality.

I honestly don't know which is worse. The idea that the same three people are perfectly reincarnated over and over again and are the only ones allowed to do anything in all of Hyrulean history, or that Link has lived billions of hours over thousands of lifetimes and hasn't once ever changed his clothes.

A lot can be said for brevity, entire article could be: "Once upon a time there was an elf named Link. He stabbed many people to death before finally stabbing a manbearpig to death, saving a princess. The end."

No. If you depict a robo-stache on the cover, you'd better deliver!

aw : (

[BrianC]

The FC port of Hydlide 3 often looks like the cart is glitching. Here are 2 images I uploaded a few years back to show that:

Out of curiosity, what do the same areas look like on the Genesis version (Super Hydlide)?

edit: Found a screenshot of the areas here and here. Looks better, but still very odd.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

The funny thing is that those dweebs got their version of things to become "official."

Castlevania has been just as bad about this, and I think that's a verifiable case of the nutters taking over the nuthouse. There's no question Super Castlevania IV is just a remake of the original game.

I don't know about Castlevania but I think the Zelda timeline is backed up pretty well by stuff in the actual games (like how Wind Waker makes a lot of direct callbacks to Ocarina of Time and even acknowledges the "split timeline" concept). Even Miyamoto, who normally pushes against story in his games, came out in a pre-release Wind Waker interview and explained that WW took place in one of the possible futures leading from OoT.

I don't think all of the Zelda games are made to fit into some master timeline that Nintendo has somewhere, but the connections between most of the main games are pretty obvious.

[Ed Oscuro]

Quite so - I think WW is the point where they went off on a tangent about this.

I think that trying to build some kind of overarching storyline is a mistake if it's likely to cause all kinds of headaches in media that are based on gameplay and less on story (comics are bad enough about this - Crisis, anyone? At least they made something interesting out of the idea). Game franchise leads come and go and they shouldn't leave a bunch of "canon" (aka detritus) in their wake. Little story arcs are fine - this is the path Hollywood takes (i.e. Spiderman) and don't cause so much fuss aside from the inevitable sadness of the end of a favorite run.

Game development isn't consistent enough to make this worthwhile, either. Resident Evil has had - and may yet still have - a good run of this; actually, many Capcom franchises have done pretty well by this standard, you could say. But some of them (Mega Man and Street Fighter) aren't really concerned with fiddly story bits that can trip you up anyway - they're just as likely to feature characters in an impossible crossover as they are to tell you what happened after Ryu won that last fight.

But back to Resident Evil - playing through the Chronicles lightgun games recently has brought to home a couple things about why this is so difficult:
1.) Much of the pull of these games is that they are attached to that license. Sometimes people don't buy excellent games because they don't have the license (although Dino Crisis 2 sold quite well I think). Sometimes people buy relatively bad games just because of the license. It's hard to resist scooping up free money with a backhoe.
2.) Without the steady influence of the original visionary developers, it's likely that replacement developers will fail to hit enough of the right notes to give that feeling of a consistent world and polished gameplay. You can only dig down so far before you tip that backhoe over.

If nothing else, the "eternal struggle" in LoZ seems like a parody of the consumerism Nintendo pushes so strongly. Here we are, still buying the game game in 20 years, and nothing changes. Fighting in Hyrule is futile for everybody, just as buying LoZ games is futile for us. It's not the journey, it's the sales!

[Skykid]

If nothing else, the "eternal struggle" in LoZ seems like a parody of the consumerism Nintendo pushes so strongly. Here we are, still buying the game game in 20 years, and nothing changes. Fighting in Hyrule is futile for everybody, just as buying LoZ games is futile for us. It's not the journey, it's the sales!

That's definitely the way I see it.

Sad as it is, some good things aren't possible to repeat infinitely with the same level of quality. LoZ, magnificent new formula for adventuring, LttP a step up in terms of expansion and detail - then aped remarkably on a handheld - before the whole thing leaps into 3D and is positively mind blowing, becoming a totally different beast in its second iteration (Mask) that does more with the medium than one could imagine possible.

And that's it. A bold reinvention through five titles that make use of new hardware and were allowed years worth of development time.

Everything after really is a rehash, including Wind Waker, which is just a very poorly thought out sailing mechanic in an unfinished, overlong campaign that manages to replicate some good elements but make a bunch of considerable, flow buckling mistakes in the process.

Series never found its way back to its full potential, yet somehow new entiries are coming out on auotfire. Kind if a shame.

I still think the CollegeHumor video on Zelda was one of their best. Most of you have likely already seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbUqEPUZ-ds

LMAO, just watched. Absolutely brilliant!

[Jonathan Ingram]

LoZ, magnificent new formula for adventuring

It wasn`t. I didn`t bring up The Tower of Druaga, Hydlide and Dragon Slayer for nothing. Zelda was not the innovator, it was the follower. It was based upon a template established by games that predated it by a year or two(by the time Dragon Slayer got its first sequel, Xanadu, The Legend of Zelda was still a year away from release).

Your lack of knowledge on the subject is astounding, but not entirely surprising given your dismissive attitude towards games that don`t have Nintendo branding on them: "Zelda is magnificent, stupendous, ingenious, *cue twenty more epithets here*. Demon`s Souls? - Played for a few hours and quit." You skipped on a game that shames two decades` worth of Zelda games, yet it`s me who has bad taste. Unbelievable.

[Drum]

Zelda started development at the same time as Super Mario Bros. Zelda was released three months after Xanadu, not a year. Zelda I is to Dragon Slayer as Dragon Slayer is to fucking Boulder Dash - or about as close as Super Mario Bros is to Joust. Zelda I isn't anything like Xanadu (Zelda II is - a *little*). I've actually played these games and I know you are trading in half-truths at absolute best. Half-skimming Wikipedia articles isn't a substitute for experiential knowledge, you fucking charlatan. Nobody on this board is a bigger videogame fossil digger than I am - try to compete on my level of nerdiness and I will eat your heart and entrails, thereby absorbing your power.

[Skykid]

@ Ingram, I don't get your constant trolling. Have I ever said anything negative about the Soul's series ever?
I sold my fucking PS3, I'll play it when I get the chance, Christ.

There are a ton of top down (and 1st person) dungeon games prior to Zelda in a variety of different styles, turn based and action, including Breywood and Gauntlet. I think your comparisons are damn loose at best, but that's because you have Nintendoitis and shudder at the thought of them establishing any kind of benchmark. For someone who says they got into gaming in the PSX era, I got no idea why you're talking to me about school history.

Original LoZ reshaped the format and structure to make it its own, and tapped into a very pure system of progression and productivity that lasted through five iterations before running out of steam.

You're not going to change my mind about that, so chill the fuck out already and stop responding to everything I write.

Zelda started development at the same time as Super Mario Bros. Zelda was released three months after Xanadu, not a year. Zelda I is about as much like Dragon Slayer as Dragon Slayer is like Boulder Dash. Zelda I isn't anything like Xanadu (Zelda II is - a *little*). I've actually played these games and I know you are trading in half-truths at absolute best. Half-skimming Wikipedia articles isn't a substitute for experiential knowledge, you fucking charlatan.

^ Or better yet, this.

[BrianC]

Many NES games simply have terrible artistic sensibilities, regardless of the hardware. Compare something like SMB or Mega Man to Shadow of the Ninja or Batman - no comparison.

I disagree about those games having poor artistic sensibilities. SMB and Mega Man are earlier games that looked better than many other NES games that came out around the same time.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I heard you get to keep your equipments/stats even after death, so I got a little turned off by this feature. That, and it's a Final Fantasy game... I found it on a sale last week but I didn't even bother.
But I'll make sure to take a look at it. Thanks...
What about Xenoblade? Is it really a single-player MMO type of game? Even through I dislike jRPGs, I get the feeling this one may be the exception of the rule, mostly from the vast and somewhat rich environments I keep seeing on pictures. Maybe the exploration is close to Piranha Bytes' standards or is it just illusion?

The Crystal Bearers is FF only by name. The gameplay has more in common with GTA than any jRPG. Gothic also reminded me of GTA more than once...

Xenoblade has two things in common with Gothic:
a) exploration feels alike (fun world to wander about exploiting the physics),
b) enemy AI is fun to dick around with.
Not as brilliant as the first Gothic at its finest, but nowhere near as glitchy at its worst. Neither game is about completion. Both are about free roaming and discovering stuff (though Xenoblade never feels really hostile at any point, which is a shame; there are enemies too strong for you at given point, but taking them down is ALWAYS a matter of grinding).

[Hagane]

I tried Xenoblade because I heard lots of praise for its exploration and I love games like Gothic, but its combat system (with random miss / evasion components) instantly turned me off. One of the things I love about Gothic 2 / Dark Souls / The Witcher 2 is that you are fully in control of your actions rather than depending on the whims of RNG.

[Obiwanshinobi]

There are people who found Baldur's Gate combat an improvement over anything turn-based and, to be fair, Xenoblade does this kind of combat better than Baldur's Gate or KoTOR, but it is not saying much.
The biggest problem isn't the system; it's that all enemies are fought the same way, except for the ones that can't be toppled (which takes away the combat's most fun gimmick and leaves nothing in it's stead).

[Jonathan Ingram]

Have I ever said anything negative about the Soul's series ever?

No, but you make sweeping statements about games that you, by your own admission, either haven`t played or played very little of: "and somehow relate it to a hardcore action dungeon crawler that's based on grinding the fuck out of things."

I think your comparisons are damn loose at best, but that's because you have Nintendoitis and shudder at the thought of them establishing any kind of benchmark.

You`re exhibiting symptoms very close to those experienced by the carriers of Amiga Persecution Complex. I`d be very worried if I were you.

For someone who says they got into gaming in the PSX era, I got no idea why you're talking to me about school history.

I got into gaming with a ZX Spectrum, MS-DOS and a Famiclone. But that`s beside the point. Your "school history" is limited to arcade and arcade-style experiences. AJRPGs and CRPGs are very obviously outside of your scope of interest which you`ve demonstrated time and time again and which this thread is a living testament to. Drop the pretense, maybe?

Zelda started development at the same time as Super Mario Bros.

"Mafia had entered development before Grand Theft Auto 3 was even conceived"(or something to this extent) - said the developers from Illusion Softworks when they were rightfully pointed at the similarities between the two games. The starting point is irrelevant as most games don`t get churned out overnight and the outcome is inevitably affected by the existing software and whatever the developers choose to play during the process. If you honestly believe that Tower of Druaga had no influence whatsoever on Zelda then... Well, I`ll refrain from calling you names, but just this once.

Zelda was released three months after Xanadu, not a year. Zelda I is to Dragon Slayer as Dragon Slayer is to fucking Boulder Dash - or about as close as Super Mario Bros is to Joust. Zelda I isn't anything like Xanadu (Zelda II is - a *little*). I've actually played these games and I know you are trading in half-truths at absolute best. Half-skimming Wikipedia articles isn't a substitute for experiential knowledge, you fucking charlatan. Nobody on this board is a bigger videogame fossil digger than I am - try to compete on my level of nerdiness and I will eat your heart and entrails, thereby absorbing your power.

A swing and a miss. Aside from indies, I`m fairly sure I`ve played the better part of JARPGs and Zelda-likes in existence, including some totally obscure stuff like Wander Wonder from Compile which you likely have never even heard of. The similarities between Hydlide, Falcom oldies and The Legend of Zelda are abound. Even Romancia has a lot in common with LoZ despite the 30-minute time limit. If you can`t see that, then maybe you`re the one who`ve been skimming through Wikipedia pages instead of giving these games some proper playtime? You even got the Xanadu release date down to months, I see. Good memory, churl. No signs of sclerosis yet.

[Ed Oscuro]

The one thing I see Jon Ingram saying which is very important to note is that even if we haven't played something, to call something else "groundbreaking" or "the best ever" is making a statement about everything. That's why I personally try to avoid such statements - because of my ignorance about what's out there and even about what I have played. A random thought: Some things get better when you learn how to play them, but as the barrier for entry into LoZ is basically nonexistent, it doesn't benefit from that extra appreciation with age. It remains a shallow experience, and in part this has been my observation about many of the "sandbox" games out there, too: Just putting out more content is nice, but if you've played it once, rarely does the experience get better. LoZ might have more diversity in its individual parts than do various strictly outlined "missions" in a Morrowind or Mafia (or GTA), but the tradeoff is there's fewer things to do. Of course, this statement doesn't even touch upon whether any of these games' content is even remotely engaging - that's a whole other issue entirely.

Big ups for Mafia. I thought it looked very dated but True Crime and Urban Chaos (I actually finished UC on PC) even more so, especially visually. I usually find it a bit difficult to deal with the uncanny valley of the big empty city in Mafia because other things look quite realistic. Mafia probably could make more sense if it was set on the West coast instead, because quite often what are now big cities were actually quite sparsely laid out with only new skyscrapers and tall buildings dotting the skyline infrequently, which is the look Mafia has sometimes, even though we know New York was very cluttered looking by that time. Huge digression there.

Many NES games simply have terrible artistic sensibilities, regardless of the hardware. Compare something like SMB or Mega Man to Shadow of the Ninja or Batman - no comparison.

I disagree about those games having poor artistic sensibilities. SMB and Mega Man are earlier games that looked better than many other NES games that came out around the same time.

I'll give you that. There have been better examples posted in this thread. SMB and MM certainly are OK in terms of overall design - they aren't cluttered, messy, or hard to read visually. I do think their sprite work isn't astounding, though again I admit I didn't give either credit.

Also, I realized when I posted earlier that I was probably just biasing "realism" over the deliberate style of SMB and MM, or what some people call "faceless Konami heroes." I still think that the games I listed blow away SMB and MM in terms of backgrounds, and although non-existent ROM space explains that, I hope that won't cloud what is still a direct comparison of screen to screen.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Off-topic, but I don't think Mafia looked dated (by PC A.D. 2002 standards). Forced anisotropic filtering makes quite a difference for the better (I do not know why it has to be forced). Character models were, in their league, second only to BG: Dark Alliance characters.
Hitman 2 was probably a better designed action TPP, but hardly better looking.
P.S. Okay, so Enclave looked more high-tech in 2002... with hardware DX8 support. There was the Silent Hill 2 port as well, but I don't think real-time soft light galore known from certain console games appeared on the PC before PoP: The Sands of Time (that wouldn't even run without pixel and vertex shaders).

[BryanM]

I disagree about those games having poor artistic sensibilities.

They're not heinous by any means, but SMB1 is def standard 1st gen NES. It was before sprite outlines became standard, and memory switching to extend the tileset wasn't used at all. That's the reason there's such a limited supply of stuff in the game, and why so many enemies are so symmetrical and why the bushes are clouds or the clouds are bushes. It's simple baseline NES through and through, and is kind of beautiful in that way.

Artistically, the NES can do stripped down SNES pretty well. (As long as you're controlling only one unit. Battle screens like in Lufia are fuarking impossible.) Switching tiles into memory can be a pain in the ass, but if your game doesn't scroll (such as the original Zelda or Battlekid) it's still pretty simple.

Ah since I brought up fixed sprite sheets, the design sheet for Z:

If you honestly believe that Tower of Druaga had no influence whatsoever on Zelda then... Well, I`ll refrain from calling you names, but just this once.

Zelda really is basically Tower of Druaga: Actually Good Edition. There's a kind of "Simpsons already did it" vibe to it. The knights and wizards are basically exact copies of one another, the Pegasus Shoes = Jet Boots, etc.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Zelda really is basically Tower of Druaga: Actually Good Edition. There's a kind of "Simpsons already did it" vibe to it. The knights and wizards are basically exact copies of one another, the Pegasus Shoes = Jet Boots, etc.

Zelda may have been a step up from Druaga back then(and it was), but now I wouldn`t recommend either of these to anyone. The shit`s archaic beyond belief. Incidentally, Namco and Monolithsoft`s Baten Kaitos pays homage to The Tower of Druaga by having one of its dungeons play and look almost exactly like Druaga proper:



Want to get yourself acquainted with Druaga? Do it by means of Baten Kaitos. Druaga may be shit, but BK is utterly fantastic. Best Monolithsoft game yet; better than Xenoblade(there I said it).



About Mafia...

As far as I recall, Mafia`s graphics were generally praised at the time. There was a generous amount of hyperbole as well with some reviewers describing Mafia`s textures as photo realistic, no less. And it was certainly one of the most demanding games too, together with Morrowind and NOLF2. Mafia 2 was expectedly a huge step up and has managed to maintain its gorgeous looks to this very day. It also offered a virtual playground with even fewer things for the player to do than in the first game(think I spent more time with the Steam demo than with the finished product).

Enclave, I`m not so sure about. It had some fancy effects and sharp looking textures, but the geometry was fairly simple. Even the rigs with GeForce2MX had no trouble running it(although, admittedly this is more an issue of optimization than anything else).

[Skykid]

No, but you make sweeping statements about games that you, by your own admission, either haven`t played or played very little of: "and somehow relate it to a hardcore action dungeon crawler that's based on grinding the fuck out of things."

Waiting for the part where you either agree with former poster that Souls is just like Zelda, or agree with me, since that was the point of the conversation you're referring to, and nothing to do with how good either of the games in question were, or the nature of their content.

It's one or the other, let's have it. Agree or disagree?

You`re exhibiting symptoms very close to those experienced by the carriers of Amiga Persecution Complex. I`d be very worried if I were you.

I don't know why you're trying to deflect an obvious loathing for a particular company that literally blinkers you to the merit in their titles. You've never attempted to hide it before, you shouldn't be suddenly embarrassed to admit it now. You've actually stated down pat that you dislike Nintendo and think their titles are low quality children's games. Yet you're standing around telling me I'm one-sided when I've never persecuted anything, only defended. Lol, double fucking standards.

I got into gaming with a ZX Spectrum, MS-DOS and a Famiclone. But that`s beside the point. Your "school history" is limited to arcade and arcade-style experiences. AJRPGs and CRPGs are very obviously outside of your scope of interest which you`ve demonstrated time and time again and which this thread is a living testament to. Drop the pretense, maybe?

You keep doing this. It's very silly and you should try to remember past conversations. You criticise me for what you suggest is uneducated conviction, and then try to pass off Tower of Druaga as equal or superior to Zelda. Reminds me of when Yakuza was vastly superior to Shenmue...

What's super amazing is how often you're willing to tell me what my gaming history is limited to, like you actually know!
You base your argument on conjecture about someone you converse with on an internet forum, and then tell them "what their experience is based on." That sort of thing can get you into trouble in real life.

"I assume you're a whore, and your previous sexual history is based entirely around accepting cash for blowjobs. Therefore you're not qualified to perform fellatio on a non-paying customer."

You pull this nonsense every time. Bluster in like a big-swinging dick telling folks what they haven't experienced and therefore can't make a judgement on. Last time you did this, it was telling me I'd played nothing current-gen (absurd, considering the schlock I had to work through in a professional capacity. Hope you enjoyed my Harry Potter coverage!) and then forced me, stupidly, to write out all the titles I'd played and enjoyed in your special list - and others not included - just to get you to stop mincing.

I don't have the silly allegiance you have to role playing games - especially these days - but I'm certainly able to make a confident judgement call about the Zelda series, and will continue to do so. No lead-headed forum brigade is going to swan in and change my mind. My belief is you're painfully incorrect and not for the first time. Just live with it, it's over, let go. Nobody listens to techno.

You hating grade-A Nintendo games by the very fact shoots a massive hole your critical ability in my eyes. That's not changing anytime soon either, so may as well stop digging the hole.

I`m fairly sure I`ve played the better part of JARPGs and Zelda-likes in existence.

For that I feel extremely sorry for you. I'd suggest broadening your horizons and attempt other, more exciting skill-based genres.

And out of burning interest, considering how quick you are to focus on the experiences of others, which Zelda titles have you actually played through? If you're going to be the authority, let's have your credentials for a change.

Now you're just being a dumbfuck.

This statement was accurate. You're not a dumbfuck Jon, definitely not. But behaving like one? A weenie bit, yes.

Now I'll wait patiently for you to come back and start talking to me about needing to play Dark Soul's before drifting off into a nice, dreamy sleep.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Well, Skykid, ol`buddy, ol`pal. I`ll try to keep it short, if you don`t mind, since, for all intents and purposes, this is a huge waste of time and given how stubborn you are, crashing my head repeatedly into a wall might just prove to be a more interesting and productive pastime. But okay.

It's one or the other, let's have it. Agree or disagree?

Is like Zelda(but better in every conceivable way, naturally). Is not grindy. Go play Dark Souls(and Mars Matrix).

I don't know why you're trying to deflect an extremely obvious loathing for a particular company that literally blinkers you to the merit in their titles.

I don`t loathe Nintendo, although I do think their recent output has been incredibly tired and predictable. I actually started a new playthrough of Super Mario Galaxy a couple of days ago("I`ve got Jewish friends, so I`m not anti-Semitic"). But their rabid and sheepish fanbase has always rubbed me the wrong way: "OoT best game ever!!! Quality over quanity!!!" Watching them foam at the mouth whenever someone even implies there are comparable(or let alone better) games out there is as amusing as it is disturbing.

Yet you're standing around telling me I'm one-sided when I've never persecuted anything, only defended.

Way to miss the point. Which reminds me: "I'm no pusher. I never have pushed." - Travis Bickle(Taxi Driver).

Reminds me of when Yakuza was vastly superior to Shenmue...

It reminds me how I even bothered to explain why I thought it was superior(something about it being a better game) than Shenmue and not only did you fail to provide any counter-arguments, you disappeared from the thread(not an entirely unexpected turn of events considering that any attempt to try and present Shenmue as a better game than Ryu ga Gotoku would be an undertaking of cosmic proportions). Almost like in this thread in regards to Neathyr, sans the bailing out part.

What's super amazing is how often you're willing to tell me what my gaming history is limited to, like you actually know!

You`re quite an outspoken fella and if you think that it`s still a secret, I must assure you that it`s certainly not the most well-kept one. It`s all over these pages. In this thread. Everywhere.

Bluster in like a big-swinging dick telling folks what they haven't experienced and therefore can't make a judgement on.

Well, shit, that`s how it works, son and not only in relation to videogames. Don`t be making judgement upon something you have little or no experience with. Don`t be calling Snatcher and Metal Gear Solid their creator`s crown achievements when you haven`t even properly played MGS part 3(again, your own admission). Don`t be calling Zelda`s gameplay formula original and new when you are uncertain about its origins, et cetera and so on. Just don`t. Only good will come from it.

For that I feel extremely sorry for you. I'd suggest broadening your horizons and attempt other, more exciting skill-based genres.

"You could be nailing brunettes if you weren`t so obsessed with blondes!!!"

Skykid, you close-minded boor, it`s not a zero-sum proposition. Never has been! You don`t have to make a choice between drama and comedy, shmups and RPGs, chess and poker. These things are not mutually exclusive. An experience with one doesn`t lead to the lack of such with another.

I hate to resort to such childish arguments, but get your ass over to PSN for a match of Virtua Figher 5: Final Showdown and I`ll kick it any day of the week, with any character, with one hand, eyes closed, without fail. Alternatively, we could try House of the Dead 4. How`s that for an offer?

And out of burning interest, considering how quick you are to focus on the experiences of others, which Zelda titles have you actually played through. If you're going to be the authority, let's have your credentials for a change.

With the exception of the original Link`s Awakening and some obscure stuff like that Japan-only satellite download Zelda, all of them, I think. The CDi Zeldas are the most interesting of the bunch, of course.

I don't have the silly allegiance you have to role playing games - especially these days - but I'm certainly able to make a confident judgement call about the Zelda series, and will continue to do so. No lead-headed forum brigade is going to swan in and change my mind. My belief is you're painfully incorrect and not for the first time. Just live with it, it's over, let go. Nobody listens to techno.

You hating grade-A Nintendo games by the very fact shoots a massive hole your critical ability in my eyes. That's not changing anytime soon either, so may as well stop digging that hole.

Skykid, STAHP!

Now I'll wait patiently for you to come back and start talking to me about needing to play Dark Soul's before drifting off into a nice, dreamy sleep.

Go play Demon`s Souls, Dark Souls, Shadow Tower: Abyss, Xanadu Next, My Little Sister Can`t Be This Cute and Mars Matrix.


Welp, it didn`t come out as short as I would`ve liked, but I tried.

[Skykid]

I`ll try to keep it short, if you don`t mind

Brevity is a virtue. Works for Zelda.

It's one or the other, let's have it. Agree or disagree?

Is like Zelda

Amazing, and even when several of the anti-Zelda troupe agreed that it wasn't. Well as long as you're all on the same page.

I don`t loathe Nintendo

There's a thigh-slapper. About face turn private, you fucking despise them. You take any given opportunity to jump in on any conversation marginally pro-Nintendo with a broken record hate rhetoric. Whenever I slag off 95% of everything they've done in the last fifteen years, it gets a pass. Anything I cherry pick as decent, I get fan boy propaganda in the face. Pull the other one. And now you're playing Galaxy, does it not qualify for the same pile of shit folder you put Mario 3D Land in not so long ago? Bullshit drivel children's game, to paraphrase? No double-standards, please, that would be out of character.

Watching them foam at the mouth whenever someone even implies there are comparable(or let alone better) games out there is as amusing as it is disturbing.

That goes for anyone who has their head up a corporate ass. We all remember Friendly. And those cultists who queue up outside Apple stores.

Yet you're standing around telling me I'm one-sided when I've never persecuted anything, only defended.

Way to miss the point. Which reminds me: "I'm no pusher. I never have pushed." - Travis Bickle(Taxi Driver).

Cute, but it obviously doesn't work in context when you deleted the sentence before it.

*snipping Shenmue subject*

What's super amazing is how often you're willing to tell me what my gaming history is limited to, like you actually know!

You`re quite an outspoken fella and if you think that it`s still a secret, I must assure you that it`s certainly not the most well-kept one. It`s all over these pages. In this thread. Everywhere.

...Right? I'm aware, yes, thanks for the heads up. Not sure what it is you're getting at.

You seem to have a clairvoyant knowledge of my entire gaming history from childhood to present, that you keep using to levy crap arguments about how you're the only person qualified to judge RPG's - that was the original point if you remember?

Whatever, I can see you're sort of struggling here. I'll stop twisting.

*Oh lawd snipping MGS. Forever and ever. Begging you not to mention these things*

Skykid, you close-minded boor, it`s not a zero-sum proposition. Never has been! You don`t have to make a choice between drama and comedy, shmups and RPGs, chess and poker. These things are not mutually exclusive. An experience with one doesn`t lead to the lack of such with another.

...Did you have any idea what you were trying to get at when you wrote this stuff? I don't mind having conversations and whatnot, or hashing out disagreements, but being halfway on-topic and coherent is a small courtesy to ask.

I hate to resort to such childish arguments, but get your ass over to PSN for a match of Virtua Figher 5: Final Showdown and I`ll kick it any day of the week, with any character, with one hand, eyes closed, without fail. Alternatively, we could try House of the Dead 4. How`s that for an offer?

Well, that's really childish, yes. I cringed on your behalf. But I'd like a game of VF5 - if I even had a PS3 - although I'm more a Street Fighter player to be honest. I draw the line at HOTD2 though. I have standards.

I suppose you should get a gold star sticker or a lollipop for playing something other than obscure foreign-language kuso-JRPG's that no-one's heard of or gives a shit about, though. I'll see if I can find a gif somewhere.

With the exception of the original Link`s Awakening and some obscure stuff like that Japan-only satellite download Zelda, all of them, I think. The CDi Zeldas are the most interesting of the bunch, of course.

Interesting as in shit? Or are the CDI Zeldas better than Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask too? Perhaps they edge out Link's Awakening or Oracle of Seasons? Like you said, it's all over the forum, speak freely, and then we'll get right down to the detail on some of these Zeldas that you played and you can tell me everything you liked and disliked about the shadow temple, or Majora's alternate ending paths, or which part of Minish Cap you lost interest in, and various other intricacies.

Go play Demon`s Souls, Dark Souls, Shadow Tower: Abyss, Xanadu Next, My Little Sister Can`t Be This Cute and Mars Matrix.

I'll do the Souls when I get another PS3, as I keep mentioning.

[BryanM]

Maybe ya'all should take the love letters to PM now. My carecat is empty and I'm sure most others would agree.

Subject is now about Stargazer's aesthetics, which were ahead of their time. Neon blue on lime green forests are the new sexness.

[BrianC]

They're not heinous by any means, but SMB1 is def standard 1st gen NES.

But that's exactly my point! It was made before developers fully realized the hardware, but still outshines many third party games that came out around the same time. Early Sunsoft and certain Jaleco games look especially bad. Namco and Konami also did a good job on early NES/FC games. Too bad some of Capcom's early games were programmed by Micronics. ugh.

[Obiwanshinobi]

1st gen NES must be the 2nd gen Famicom then. If Nintendo, who had dev kits first, released SMB after two years of working with the machine, they might have not been interested in impressing anyone with the graphics to boot.

I tried Xenoblade because I heard lots of praise for its exploration and I love games like Gothic, but its combat system (with random miss / evasion components) instantly turned me off.

What should be accentuated is that Xenoblade isn't really an action game and its "real-time" combat is essentially turn-based made look real-time, BioWare A.D. 1998 style. I didn't even try to play it without auto-attack.
Personally I dislike such systems, but Planescape: Torment has it, thus I learned forgiveness in this regard.

Come to think of it, Mafia had some of the most realistic polygonal outdoor environments around (countryside), on a par with Gothic II. Realistic graphics are the fastest ageing kind, but I think time had mercy on those particular titles.

I don't feel like criticising N64 Zelda games considering how fresh they were in their time. Wind Waker, however, feels ponderous for all the wrong reasons and - having played Blood Will Tell, Ōkami or even BG&E before WW - I think only Medli's dungeon (Earth Temple) lives up to the benchmark set by those three. I'm talking about the kind of action-adventure OoT arguably originated in 3D.
Still looking forward to playing WW in co-op with someone (using GBA link cable). If there's anything fresh about the game, what else could that be?