What's goin on in MAME?

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Ed Oscuro
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What's goin on in MAME?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Hold onto your belts...probably "nothing to see here" but I wanted to know more about the governance aspect to this thing. Apparently MAME leadership have suggested a licensing change is in the works to allow more uses of the code. The thing really blew up when Haze wrote a blog post - which he has since hidden and indicated he doesn't want reposted elsewhere for the moment, and I agree that it might cause more harm than understanding, as it apparently was written without full understanding of the motives, but it did perfectly capture discontent with the governance angle. I have that available but given its potential for hurting the community's understanding of this issue I won't post it now.

The new post is this:
Apparently (according to Lord Nightmare in the comments below) “This whole thing started with a few academic papers and museums noting that they cannot use MAME/MESS even for a preservation standpoint (which is the whole POINT of the MAME/MESS projects) due to its overly restrictive no-commercial-use license.”

Now while I still consider the whole thing unworkable (you can’t simply ignore minor contributors and relicense files containing their contributions) I think it would have been a lot fairer to ask people if they would approve an additional exemption for such cases rather than trying to force the hand of everybody to a pure BSD license. I would have found that much more agreeable, and had even stated as much to the team in an earlier email. There is a world between allowing ANY commercial use, and allowing people with legitimate needs who fear they can’t use it due to our current license a clearer exception to the current clause. I’d still consider the actions taken by the team to be opportunistic tho (clearly some have wanted to force a pure BSD license for a while and jumped on this)

I’m not sure I’d count a museum as commercial use in the first place mind you, but obviously for specific cases with a similar cause to MAME I would not deny use of my code.


As things stand I feel that is that, this article doesn’t need to be further posted anywhere, nor do I need any additional comments, so I’m turning them off. The point has been made. I remain unhappy with how things have been handled, and the whole process has certainly been revealing when it comes to how much (or little) some devs value the smaller contributions people have made to the project. I certainly hope some further consideration is put into this move before any more action is taken otherwise we are just going to end up with a package full of illegally relicensed code.

I have temporarily set the page in question to be protected until the storm passes, but will restore it at a later date to show my concerns. My concern here is for the MAME project.
So no, MAME isn't ending, that's just a bit of hyperbole from Haze. But I do think that this is a "teachable moment" if the project leadership is stepping into one legal quandry while trying to defuse the potential for another.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by trap15 »

They can't legally change the license, unless they want to contact literally everybody who's ever contributed. Aaron Giles is a giant shit head and I wouldn't doubt he'd pull the rug out under everyone for his own selfish desires regardless of the legality though.

If they do decide to change the license under everyone's feet, I'm getting the PGM sound core that I helped write removed, and the NMK fixes as well. I have to go through my backlog of changes to MAME, and I'd probably get those removed too.

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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by Sinful »

Wow, this sucks. I hope you right, trap15.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by Teufel_in_Blau »

C'mon IseeThings, you can post here without fear. Nobody from the Mame team is visiting such an obscure place like the shmups forum. Fucking shmups, who the hell still plays this shit anyway?
trap15 wrote: If they do decide to change the license under everyone's feet, I'm getting the PGM sound core that I helped write removed
So there is a chance we will finally get some working drivers? PRAISE THE LORD!!
/jk ;)
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by cools »

I'm curious as to what could actually happen.

The MAME team themselves can go after those that use the software in a way that breaches the license. But if they did choose to change the license, the current code is still under the old one. Plus, with it being open source someone anonymous could quite easily fork it minus any license, distribute anonymously and create a "competing" MAME, albeit no longer called that due to the trademark issue.

Or even not anonymously, if a large group decided to fork it all over the place. Are MAMEdevs legal pockets big enough to kick off proceedings against a sufficiently big internationally wide group of individuals?

I suppose it depends on what the legal definition of commercial use is. I'd understand a museum that's partially or totally funded by entrance fees being a commercial use, but is a not-for-profit free entry one the same classification? And the same for educational use. I expect this has likely been discussed in private MAMEDev areas but could it simply be an extra FAQ answer rather than a license change?
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by trap15 »

MAMEdev has not once gone after anyone about the non-commercial clause. I don't care about the enforcement, I care about the statement that it's not sanctioned for commercial use, and if you use it as such, you're a bad person and should stop.

Removing that clause essentially means saying "Hey, go ahead and gut peoples' pockets with us, we don't care!" which is frankly bullshit and awful.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by PurpBullets »

Who would even be behind this idea?
The "museums"?
I remember hearing some dudes have mansions off mame the way it is now... ?
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by trap15 »

For the most part, 3 people who have barely contributed anything worthwhile to MAME in the better part of 5 years, but happen to be the ones in control of the project. You know how MAME is loads slower in the past 2 or 3 years? Yeah, almost singlehandedly the fault of one of them. I'd also like to add that those changes did absolutely nothing to improve anything, other than stroking the C++ ego. It's also scared off lots of external contributors because somehow he made the codebase even uglier and worse to deal with than before.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by moh »

PurpBullets wrote: I remember hearing some dudes have mansions off mame the way it is now... ?
I don't know much about MAME development, could you explain a bit more about what you mean by this?
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by trap15 »

There are lots of scumbags that just package up MAME and ROMs and sell it on ebay or app stores saying "HEY PLAY ARCADE GAMES ON YOUR COMPUTER!!" and make loads.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by moh »

wow, thats really shitty..

I didn't think people could get away with stuff like that on ebay
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by trap15 »

Found this first page searching "arcade pc" on ebay (no quotes)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-Classic-Arca ... 58a63cd6a2
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by moh »

how can i say no to such ADDICTING GAMES as:

Falling Block Game.

and

Marbles
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by trap15 »

Oh hey wait, that's not actually even a MAME package :lol: That's just shit.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by jonny5 »

trap15 wrote:Oh hey wait, that's not actually even a MAME package :lol: That's just shit.
I was gonna say; looks like just freeware knockoffs of popular arcade titles
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by BIL »

CRACK ATTACK, the most ADDICTIVE GAME EVER
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by PurpBullets »

Look man, that is what I heard. I am as curious as you are really.
I know that people donate, and I know some private dump projects involved money.
I really dont know though? Its been a while and my memory might be fuzzy.

To sell out to a museum is pitiful, like museums try to paint a realistic picture... :roll:
What I mean by that is there are facets of the historical spectrum that the public were not informed of completely or directly.
:lol:

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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by KAI »

There was a guy here selling MAME + Roms (4 DVDs) on national TV. The fucker sold it for $100 on an auction TV show. True story.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by soprano1 »

KAI wrote:There was a guy here selling MAME + Roms (4 DVDs) on national TV. The fucker sold it for $100 on an auction TV show. True story.
Just shows how dumb people can be. Who the hell pays for roms, other than those who aren't "Internet savy"?
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by trap15 »

Exactly those people. Which is a lot of people.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by jonny5 »

trap15 wrote:Exactly those people. Which is MOST people.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by soprano1 »

This topic reminded me of a similar situation that happened around 2002, involving MegaDrive games.
The person in question bought a CD with Genecyst (i think) and a bunch of MD roms for about 30 euros (a lot at the time, and a lot more for this person).
When i told him he was scammed, he didn't care much. 2 weeks later, his father "Bright slapped" him a few times (a 17 year old, ha ha), and told him to return the CD to the scammer and get the money back.
Unfortunately, his father had to forget about refunds, since he was afraid of the scammer's father (local drunkard and wife beater. He's doing time now for theft or something).
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by antron »

trap15 wrote:MAMEdev has not once gone after anyone about the non-commercial clause. I don't care about the enforcement, I care about the statement that it's not sanctioned for commercial use, and if you use it as such, you're a bad person and should stop.

Removing that clause essentially means saying "Hey, go ahead and gut peoples' pockets with us, we don't care!" which is frankly bullshit and awful.
trap15 wrote:There are lots of scumbags that just package up MAME and ROMs and sell it on ebay or app stores saying "HEY PLAY ARCADE GAMES ON YOUR COMPUTER!!" and make loads.
I suggest you find some thing better to be concerned over. A doctor here at work recently bought all the ROMS on DVD, otherwise the torrent would have slowed down his wife's internet surfing. So some guy made some money off it, but he provided a convenient service.

By the way, have you ever downloaded a ROM from a site that had an ad banner? If so then you participated in the exact same thing.
Last edited by antron on Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by Despatche »

because slowing down anyone's internet surfing a bit is such a terrible thing, never mind that there are only two kinds of people who should even possess fullsets: people who are trying to preserve (good) and terrible people who don't play games (bad).

is downloading a rom file or set from an ad-heavy site the same thing? no, because you can (and should) use an adblocker (in before someone completely misses every point and goes on about how most people won't use adblockers), and because the money from those ads is pretty honest in comparison and goes to hosting the site in the first place (you know how much money those crooks on ebay spent for those dvds? you know how much money they ended up gaining in return?).
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by antron »

^I see you got the point of how trivial this is to some people, to pay for a ROM disc, or order a ready to go MAME cab with built in binaries. These are the same people that are being cried over.
trap15 wrote:They can't legally change the license, unless they want to contact literally everybody who's ever contributed.

I assume you are wrong, and I'll be glad when it does change. Then the world can move on to seeing MAME like it does Linux. Ubiquitous.

You'll notice there is no free download button at redhat.com. Imagine Linus throwing a hissy fit over that.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

trap15's major point is that MAME's license should provide some legal restrictions (even if they aren't enforced, and even if it's just the trademark in practice) on using MAME in a way that's detrimental to game makers. I agree with this completely.

Linux is a different project with different aims (as GNU.org states, selling free software is no problem). One of the key distinctions between something like Linux and something like MAME is that Linux is much more free - there are few, if any, components that the average user needs to run a PC which aren't actually free software. MAME, on the other hand, has always had to do a bit of a dance around the issue of the original game software not being free. Linus Torvalds is definitely OK with the idea that more people are using Linux. Running and administering Linux machines and features is a big business for lots of companies, including some very big and famous ones. The people who own the copyrights to old arcade games, for the most part, still want to bleed the stone and sell compilations.

Edit: The blog post has been updated with this -
After a night of (very little) sleep, my problem based on current events boils down to this:

Aaron wants to enforce some bizarre concept where only the ‘main’ contributor(s) to a file gets a say in how it is licensed. I cannot see this being remotely legal.

Just because I have worked on a driver and done most of the work in making it work does not mean I should have the sole say on it. I would also consider people like Steph (who fixed many dips), Brian (adding new sets), Tafoid (cleanups), or people who have submitted hacks / bugfixes with only a 50% chance of being right (Mash, Mamesick). In addition anybody who has helped refactor + device conversions stuff (Osso, eta), modernizations / deprecat removal (Kale), documentation (Guru), save states (Mooglyguy), hooked up the eeprom / sound chips when I’ve struggled (various), provided decryption functions or simplified the ones I had (Nicola / Andreas), adding output lamps (HowardC), fixing regressions caused by core changes etc. (Phil B, hap), fixing up parts of the video emulation (Paul Priest) should count. If you rewind far enough the people who have converted the drivers to use the tilemap system (Curt Coder etc.). The list of contributors for any one file who should have a say is endless and that is only covering some of the major points and the more recent developers doing these things, there are hundreds more even smaller contributions. People have spent their time doing these things and contributed that in the form of code changes under our existing license, they matter.

Furthermore Aaron has outright stated that if somebody only worked on research, not the code, they don’t count. So Charles, despite providing everything I needed to know for the recent Deco protections apparently has no say on those files. Legally this one does make sense, but I still consider it highly immoral. Likewise I would still consider Bryan to be an author on those files, even if basically all his code has been rewritten, it is only his legacy of work that got us to where we were. It would be rude to write him out of history, you don’t suddenly forget somebody who has made major contributions to a file in the past when it is convenient to your cause.

But in the eyes of Aaron I would be the sole contributor on those, I would be the one who can suddenly decide to make the file available under a plain BSD license. This is the logic being applied to the rest of the source, and I simply can’t agree with it.

EVERYBODY who has contributed counts. This is a TEAM project and everything in it has been worked on by a TEAM of both internal and external contributors for as long as it has been around. Maybe I’m the guy who did most of the driver in many, many cases, but the drivers would be nowhere near as good as they are without the work of ALL those other people. Likewise many other drivers wouldn’t be anywhere as good if I hadn’t spent time making small tweaks and improvements to them!

I don’t like the selfish attitude being demonstrated still. I honestly thought despite often working alone Aaron actually valued all the other contributions. I appear to have been wrong. He’s willing to throw both morality (and in my honest opinion, legality) out of the window in order to claim files are available under plain BSD. Even if the stated cause is good the way it is being done is heavy-handed, and goes far too far.

The issue above is what needs resolving over the next few days if there is to be any progress on this front. While I’ve said I agree that allowing Museums, Educational establishments etc. to use our code is a good cause I simply do not see how this attempted relicensing is going to be legal, there is simply no way to track every contributor. My view remains that the only clean way to do this would be in a completely new project, taking nothing of the MAME cores and drivers. If there is the interest in doing that, it will be done. Our very own legal page states “Sorry, there is no free lunch here.”
Last edited by Ed Oscuro on Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by antron »

why is it MAME's job to protect the game makers? do the creators of MAME feel bad about making it so easy to use the illegal copies of their games?

why don't the copyright owners shut down the distribution? (because it would never work) So why don't they use MAME to deliver a convenient and inexpensive product to consumers (oh, wait....)
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by Pretas »

It's not MAME, but I was at a comic convention once where two idiots were openly selling CDs full of NES ROMs, with a Nintendo logo on their sign and demo laptops running SMB3. The organizers must have been old and very clueless about video games to allow them in.
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Hey, look whose argument keeps changing!

MAME wouldn't have gotten the OK from Electrocoin and everybody who has donated ROM files for free use if it was set up against game makers. This also would have been inviting copyright owners to attack the MAME project - something it really can't afford if you want progress in any reasonable timeframe.

I think we should turn the question on its head. What good do you think adopting a difference license would do? Do you have a stake in repackaging and selling MAME?
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Re: What's goin on in MAME?

Post by antron »

It will provide the owners of games an easy way to package them for consumers. I have no problem with them bleeding that stone. I like to see people enjoying a blast from their past, and the owners should be compensated.

Isn't MAME about history? If it accomplishes that goal, then who cares if it serves other goals as well? Right now its use is 99.9999% theft.

Oh, and the whole museum/educational roadblock is seriously hurting the history goal.
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