artifacts with Vigatec VC1280, help very appreciated

[pantra]

tl;dr-edition: is there any way to make the Vigatec VC1280 not show these artifacts:





Details:

While using a Vigatec VC1280 set to LD (linedoubling mode) to capture interlaced and non-interlaced 15khz-video from my consoles I noticed some artifacts. These occur on both interlaced (Street Fighter Alpha Anthology in 480i on PS2 via YUV) and non-interlaced sources (F-Zero in 240p on SNES via RGsB).

Capture was done with a Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 at 720x480 and 59.94fps. The device detects the input as 480p and also those artifacts show when directly connecting a TFT to the VC1280. So capture settings / drivers / etc. don't seem to be the problem, the XCAPTURE-1 and the TFT are just picking up what the VC1280 outputs.

Playing around with the settings (Framelock, vertical sharpness, horizontal sharpness, noise reduction, other output resoltions) doesn't seem to make a difference. The PS2 was directly connected via a YUV-component-cable, the SNES via RGB through a SyncStrike and then an Extron RGB 160xi. Setting the DDSP on/off on the Extron doesn't make the artifacts disappear (as can be expected, but just to be safe).

To make sure I didn't miss a relevant setting I searched for the manual of the VC1280, but didn't find one. Vigatec doesn't seem to exist anymore. The only manual I did find was one for the Com-Tec Up1280 (over here), which is a very similar unit. In the manual it's stated under "3.6 Processing" that the unit "interpolates over 3 fields" unless the setting is switched from "quality" to "static". I searched through every menu and submenu on the Vigatec VC1280 but didn't find the "Processing" option. Perhaps the VC1280 always applies this deinterlacing to every source, even non-interlaced 240p and 288p. Also I noticed that the unit puts out 59.94 fps, even if a US-Super Nintendo at ~60.099hz is used for input. So some sort of framerate-conversion / interpolation between frames is also applied, maybe that's part of the problem.

OR does anyone know a solution to this problem? - And would be kind enough to tell me!

[Fudoh]

It's been many years since I had this unit on hand - and it was a CommTec unit after all. I just checked the VC1280 manual (uploaded it here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/32qrcl ) and it really seems as the static "non-deinterlacing" option was scrubbed from the Vigatec release of the processor and only brought back in the later Dune revisions. Sorry about that - I didn't know.

What you see in those images are deinterlacing errors, as the image is handled as 480i instead of 240p.

[pantra]

Thank you for the quick reply, Fudoh (EDIT: and the manual!!). And no need to be sorry, but an updated info in your review of the Up1280 would be great to help inform other people that the VC1280 is missing some options and does apparently not treat non-interlaced video correctly. Which is weird by the way! I also have a Videon Omega One at hand, another faroudja based unit, and it clearly doesn't apply deinterlacing to non-interlaced video.

But my beef with the Omega One is that it sometimes starts shaking the screen and doesn't recover after a switch from interlaced to non-interlaced video and vice versa. I can reproduce this when connecting a PSX and switching from the Gran Turismo 1 title-screen (480i) to the options menu (240p) and back. Same thing with R-Type Delta. Maybe it works a few times in a row, but it always happens eventually. I tried putting an Extron RGB 201 Rxi between the SyncStike and the OmegaOne (the 201 has a switch labeled "V-Sync width" that sounded as if it could help), but of course it happened anyway. It also happened when directly connecting the PSX via Composite or S-Video.

This bugs me because this is precisely the kind of use case I would like to have a separate video-processor for: being able to always capture any 15khz-source at 480p while preserving the original quality as much as possible, but also with the added convenience of not having to worry about any game switching video modes in between. And this on the other hand works beautifully with the VC1280! Video Capture seamlessly continues. No lost sync or dropped or inserted frames, even when wildy switching back and forth, like Killer Instinct Gold does it for example.

Another even more practical option would be a DirectShow-capture-tool that automatically stops and starts a new recording whenever a resolution switch occurs. That would make it obsolete to do any processing before capturing and instead just process the footage later, before re-encoding anyway. So far the only capture-tool I've come across that does auto-start a separate recording is StreamCatcher, the piece of software that's very similar to VideoKeeper2 and ships with the Startech PEXHDCAP aka SC-500N1.

But I don't want to use it either cause StreamCatcher always applies a form of blended deinterlacing while keeping the original framerate. The original XCAPTURE-1 drivers forced the same thing, but thankfully at least that's gone after the latest driver update. VideoKeeper2 on the other hand does stop a recording when the video mode switches - but it does not start a new one. But I don't want to use it anyway since it forces the same deinterlacing as StreamCatcher does.

Anyway, I suppose I'll finally get an XRGB-3, even if that might be a little overkillish "just" for capturing.

[Ji-L87]

But my beef with the Omega One is that it sometimes starts shaking the screen and doesn't recover after a switch from interlaced to non-interlaced video and vice versa. I can reproduce this when connecting a PSX and switching from the Gran Turismo 1 title-screen (480i) to the options menu (240p) and back. Same thing with R-Type Delta. Maybe it works a few times in a row, but it always happens eventually. I tried putting an Extron RGB 201 Rxi between the SyncStike and the OmegaOne (the 201 has a switch labeled "V-Sync width" that sounded as if it could help), but of course it happened anyway. It also happened when directly connecting the PSX via Composite or S-Video.

Sounds like the problem I had with my Vigatec FX2+ (thread). Quickly rebooting the unit while the source is powered on helped to stabilize the picture, so try that

[pantra]

Sounds like the problem I had with my Vigatec FX2+ (thread). Quickly rebooting the unit while the source is powered on helped to stabilize the picture, so try that

Yes, that's exactly the problem. Switching the unit off and on again works most of the time, but sadly that's not a solution for me. As I said I'd love to have a most lazy and convenient capture-setup where I can always just turn on everything and don't have to worry about any games switching wildly between interlaced and non-interlaced video.

Just to give a quick update: Out of curiosity I also got a CommTec Up1280 off eBay in the meantime and I can confirm that it does deal with non-interlaced video way better than the Vigatec VC1280. I checked this with the Drop-Shadow- and Scrolling-Test from the 240p Test Suite. If the Deinterlacing Setting of the Up1280 is set to "quality" the unit appears to either just linedouble or bob. If the setting is left at "static" it seems to just weave the fields together (or more like "double weave", since the fieldrate becomes the new framerate).

But I'm not completely happy with the capture quality that I get out of this. I'm testing this with both an XCAPTURE-1 and a PEXHDCAP. The contrast is always too high, even more so with the XCAPTURE-1. Also I think there might be a bug with the sharpness-setting in the Micomsoft-drivers: If I capture video from the Up1280 through the RGB-In of the XCAPTURE-1 and the sharpness is kept at anything but 255, Jailbars/scaling artifacts appear. This does not happen with the StarTech PEXHDCAP and the Startech-driver. Maybe I'll look into this some more or maybe I'll finally get an XRGB3 - for realsies this time.

[Xyga]

Hi and thanks Fudoh (on AVS) and Ji-L87 (on your blog) for your advices on the Dune F and VP30.

Just wanted to share my little experience; I own both the Dune F & UP1280(FD) and I have to agree about the overall superior compatibility and stability of the latter.

Thanks to the switchable 'Time Base Corrector' and 'quality' deinterlacing setting the UP1280 could handle everything I've tried on it;
- Most common PAL consoles, modded & 50/60Hz switched.
- Cave & Toaplan pcbs (couldn't try Seibu or Irem boards, sorry)
After watching carefully I can tell scrolling may not always be perfectlysmooth, I have noticed slight hiccups (like every 4 sec but hard to notice) on Thunder Force III for instance.
The cost of using the TBC seems to be of around 1 frame, but it doesn't have to be active all the time. My modded megadrive works fine without it even if there's a bit of shaking on top of the picture like on a XRGB-2+ for instance.
Resolution-wise the 720x480 mode is 'wavy/dirty' so I use 852x480 to get around it and it is perfectly clean.
There's a good mode for PAL signals as well.
Strangest thing is that all modes works fine on both my monitor (Belinea 2080 S2) and TV (LG 32LD450).
- wait, I haven't tried the PAL mode on the monitor, it may not work since it is 60Hz-only, but it works fine on the (European) TV.
Coolest thing is the VP30 accepts everything from the UP1280, and that's very nice, especially with PAL stuff overscanned to zero-borders full screen !
Of course as specified in your review the UP1280 can zoom the picture by itself to almost completely eliminate borders, but the process will mess-up lines/scanlines count when used with a SLG and the result doesn't look right.
Still feels nice without scanlines, clearly better than cheap 30/50€ vga boxes, even 480i games look decent, smooth with only rarely noticeable - faint - flickering.

Overall I think the UP1280 is quite a competent machine, very close to the XRGB-2 in terms of compatiblility and picture quality.
Just a bit behind in terms of pure performance, but offering more flexibility in some fields (better for PAL, zoom feature).
I paid a bit too much for it (something around 200+ €) but I don't regret my purchase.

There are 4 versions of the UP1280, normally it is written on a sticker somewhere on the device:
UP 1280
UP 1280 FD (with frame doubling = 100Hz & 120Hz modes)
UP 1280 HT (with internal aspect ration control)
UP 1280 FDHT (both)
I would recommend choosing one with 'HT' for anyone who wishes to have control over 4:3 & 16:9 aspects, otherwise you'll have to use your display's ratio controls, which may not always be to your liking.

NOW let's talk about the Dune F...
I only got trouble with that one.

- Impossible to sync-stabilize (no controllable TBC) resulting in choppy movement/scrolling almost all the time.
- Strange motion behaviour: you have to push some settings up otherwise there's a lot of motion blur. But when you do the picture also looks more and more coarse.
- On a static image it is possible to get a truly beautiful picture, better than the UP1280's... unfortunately my unit seems to have a defect since only a small portion of the picture appears to be positively affected by the various picture enhancement settings. The rest stays blurry, badly defined. (
- A lot of PAL/NTSC 50/60Hz switching issues, sometimes the machine gets stuck on PAL, which it seems to love beyond every other standard (no 'on-the-fly' HZ switching or you'll have to redo your settings all over again!)
- 480p looks sharp but works like a pass-through. All picture enhancements and geometry controls are disabled. Not very useful.
- Impossible to download firmware updates.
- STAHP!

I could go on but honestly this machine had me pulling my hair, it simply doesn't seem to be a competent machine for retro systems.
Some time ago I hesitated between a simple VC1280 and the Dune F, I went for the Dune F but after reading this topic I think there's an issue with the Vigatec machines: they're not like their Comm-Tec ancestors.
Maybe good for movies, but not for games, despite the excellent chips they are equiped with.

EDIT: corrected a few typos and added a couple comments.

[Fudoh]

thanks a lot for the detailed impressions. I'll certainly put a link to this posting onto my page.

[Xyga]

You're welcome!
(er... I'll edit my crappy english a bit if you don't mind ^^)

But I wanted to add that my Dune F - despite the fact that it's got a defect - may be one of the earlier units produced.
It doesn't have the 'F' on the front, the SDI addon card inside cannot connect completely without touching another board and tilting, and the whole behaviour of the machine really contrasts with most of the comments and reviews I could read about it.

Still, I wouldn't want to take the risk of purchasing another one to try and confirm my suspicion. ^^

[Xyga]

Just resurrecting this thread to try and clear a few things about the Vigatec machines.
Sorry if it's a bit messy but I'm still getting headaches trying to figure exactly what each model can, and cannot do.
I could manage to get a good picture quality with the Dune F, but couldn't fix everything, which is why I have some more interrogations.

From what we could gather the VC1280 series lacks the Processing option (Quality/Static) featured on the older Comm-Tec devices, but the problem can more or less be dealt with by turning the VC1280 off and on again while the source is active.
-> Even if it's annoying, does this method work well in the end, or is it hit-or-miss ? Does it always work if you systematically power the VC1280 after powering the source ?

The VC1280 also lacks the switchable TBC (On/Off) of the Comm-Tec that eliminates tearing/judder, but it's got a Frame Lock option.
Two questions;
- in practice does Frame Lock has the same effect as the switchable TBC (eliminating tearing/judder) ?
- does it work on all input signals ?

The Dune F lacks a few of the older features:
no TBC nor Frame Lock option with progressive signals, resulting in very teary/choppy scrollings.
no Processing (Quality/Static) option, but I haven't witnessed any combing artifacts so it doesn't seem to be a problem.
no GAME mode.
The Dune F in the end only brings much better handling of 480i and a DVI output (that I got to work in 720p only but is still stunningly clear and sharp)
Two questions;
- what does GAME mode do exactly (pros/cons) and is it bad that it's missing on the Dune F ?
- where's the DCDi option ? The manual says it's under the 'configuration' menu, but I've never seen it. In the beginning I thought the 'Enhancer' option was the same thing but it isn't, which makes me understand I have actually never seen DCDi in action on my unit.

Would love to learn there's a Vigatec device featuring all the good and required features.
I've seen excellent compatibility (Comm-Tec UP1280 -> no tearing nor artifacts with any signal)
I've seen beautifully upscaled 240p but choppy/unstable (Dune F -> using the 'Enhancer' settings, which I assume are as good on the VC1280 & GVC1280)
I've seen fantastic 480i (Dune F -> certainly thanks to the FLI2200)
But in the end it seems only the old Comm-Tec units qualify in terms of compatibility/stability for both 240p & 480i... too bad the picture quality is so much inferior compared to the VC/Dune series.

Final question: should I try a VC/Dune series model, or will I be disappointed again ?
I don't mind the power off/on trick if it really works.
(The FX2 models are a no-go for me because of the non-defeatable higher input lag)

[Fudoh]

The FX2 models are a no-go for me because of the non-defeatable higher input lag

have you measured it ? The processing path in all Faroudja based processors is hard-wired, so I don't see why a FX2 or a Omega One should have more lag than a Dune. If anything the Dune adds to the FX2 because of the secondary processing for scaling.

The Commtec has an earlier version of the processor with far inferiour 480i handling.

I personally think that the FX2(plus) or Omega One (HDP) are still the best FLI2200 implementations out there. If you add a component to HDMI converter to those, they're shining - truly. Also they (sometimes) cost next to nothing. Lag-wise they're about 7ms behind the Framemeister.

The FLI2200 on the FX2/Omega is always framelocked.

[Xyga]

The FX2 models are a no-go for me because of the non-defeatable higher input lag

have you measured it ? The processing path in all Faroudja based processors is hard-wired, so I don't see why a FX2 or a Omega One should have more lag than a Dune. If anything the Dune adds to the FX2 because of the secondary processing for scaling.

Nope haven't measured it myself (yet) but you mentioned it's between 1-2 frames, which is a little bit too much for my requirements.
What I assumed - and I may be wrong because it's only suggestive until I've made proper measurements - and liked about the Comm-Tec is that it still handles not-too-far-from-60Hz signals very well even with TBC off, and it does it with almost imperceptible tearing/judder compared to the Dune F.
The difference in delay is perceptible, it feels pretty much as snappy as an XRGB, and I like to have that choice when I need it.
I also assumed the GAME/single field mode on the VC/Dune acts as a faster mode as well, like the XRGB's, and I am curious to see if it is really the case + the benefits I expect from of Frame Lock and sharpening options.

The Commtec has an earlier version of the processor with far inferiour 480i handling.

Oh yes far inferior indeed, but regarding the Vigatec devices 240p is my main focus. I'm fine with a just-decent 480i as a side feature.
Don't get me wrong the Dune F does incredible 240p and 480i, but I expect more from the 240p part; it needs to be sub-1 frame, with smooth scrollings and sharpening/enhancements to be applicable all at the same time.
My quest is about learning if there's even one Vigatec model that's able do to that... or not.

I personally think that the FX2(plus) or Omega One (HDP) are still the best FLI2200 implementations out there. If you add a component to HDMI converter to those, they're shining - truly. Also they (sometimes) cost next to nothing. Lag-wise they're about 7ms behind the Framemeister.
The FLI2200 on the FX2/Omega is always framelocked.

I don't doubt they're the most competent picture quality and stability-wise, though I am already truly amazed with just what the 'enhancer' on the Dune F - and I assume also the VC - is able to do by itself.
It's really the lag that bothers me (I know I'm a bitch) but I believe I'll buy one someday even if it doesn't fit 100% into my "try as many of the sharper-and-fastest setups" personal quest.
I don't think I've fallen as low as some audiophiles sometimes do, since I'm still able to actually see and feel the differences between setups and configurations.

PS: still not getting that DCDi part, is this something wrongly described by Vigatec or what ?

[Fudoh]

I also assumed the GAME/single field mode on the VC/Dune acts as a faster mode as well,

I don't think so. It probably just sets the deinterlacer to single field based deinterlacing mode.
I mean, do you actually feel difference when playing a 240p game and switching between GAME deinterlacing the other mode(s) ?

My quest is about learning if there's even one Vigatec model that's able do to that... or not.

no, there is not. Enhancement "on chip" is only available on the FLI2300. On the FLI2200 another processor is needed to do that. This multi-processor design is what made those units so extremely expensive. The Dune Fi probably uses the FLI2300 already (meaning that everything incl. enhancement and scaling is done on the same chip). Even Vigatec realized that this wasn't perfect and returned to the FLI2200 on the S1 with an added scaling engine by Pixelworks.

What is it exactly that you prefer on the CommTec compared to a XRGB unit ? The XRGBs are the reference and everything else can just get somewhere close (in the best cases).

still not getting that DCDi part, is this something wrongly described by Vigatec or what

If the option's not there (it's called diagonal enhancement on the FX2/Omega), I would suspect that's enabled by default and you can't disable it (was like this starting the with FLI2300 anyway). You're sure that's off ?

[Xyga]

I also assumed the GAME/single field mode on the VC/Dune acts as a faster mode as well,

I don't think so. It probably just sets the deinterlacer to single field based deinterlacing mode.
I mean, do you actually feel difference when playing a 240p game and switching between GAME deinterlacing the other mode(s) ?

I haven't experienced this GAME mode, since it's absent from the Dune F, so I am curious.
Aren't single-field deinterlacing methods usually faster ?

My quest is about learning if there's even one Vigatec model that's able do to that... or not.

no, there is not. Enhancement "on chip" is only available on the FLI2300. On the FLI2200 another processor is needed to do that. This multi-processor design is what made those units so extremely expensive. The Dune Fi probably uses the FLI2300 already (meaning that everything incl. enhancement and scaling is done on the same chip). Even Vigatec realized that this wasn't perfect and returned to the FLI2200 on the S1 with an added scaling engine by Pixelworks.

So the VC/GVC/Dune (non-F) are built around an FLI2300 handling everything as well ?

What is it exactly that you prefer on the CommTec compared to a XRGB unit ? The XRGBs are the reference and everything else can just get somewhere close (in the best cases).

Oh I definitely don't prefer it to the XRGBs!
The only two things the Comm-Tec's s got over the XRGB-2 for instance, are non cut-off lines (which is nice with some PCBs), and a not necessarily better but different basic handling of 480i which I appreciate for its much less 'flickery' and zoomable image (nothing great compared to higher-end processors of course, but a nice side feature).
Everything else is obviously inferior.
Bought it because I was curious, and that was before I got into DVDO combos and stuff with better displays etc.
I'll resell it sometime this year or in 2015.

still not getting that DCDi part, is this something wrongly described by Vigatec or what

If the option's not there (it's called diagonal enhancement on the FX2/Omega), I would suspect that's enabled by default and you can't disable it (was like this starting the with FLI2300 anyway). You're sure that's off ?

I have never seen it appear in the menus in any situation (or I've missed a particular condition, don't know) but the thing is the manual definitely lists the option/command as something separate from the Enhancer option and settings.
It's simply not there.

---

Just to explain why I have been curious about the Vigatec devices: I've been looking for something different from the XRGBs, and from the descriptions it looked like Vigatec was an interesting path to explore. So I gave it a try with the Dune F, and while it didn't bring everything I expected because of some flaws or missing features, I want to highlight how much I was impressed by the quality of 240p, using the enhancer.
It's different from the XRGB's indeed, after finally getting used to the different settings I could get results I found positively amazing.
Honestly with some careful sharpening I found the picture to be overall more consistent and pleasing. It's kind of a compromise between the XRGB-2's analogue touch and the XRGB-3's clarity/sharpness.
I even added a touch of horizontal resizing while it was connected to the W6 with and SLG3000+AA transcoder, and to my surprise I couldn't see any scaling artifacts, and ware there any, those stood beyond my perception capabilities anyway.
Only that bloody tearing/judder ruined the experience.
Even on 720p/DVI>HDMI it was really impressive, not pixel-perfect like an XRGB of course, but the way the enhancer let me fine-tune the smoothing made the picture quite pleasing without the need of fake scanlines.
Damn that was significantly better than your average emulator with barbaric interpolation/bilinear, more like some light shader implementation.
XRGBs are awesome and indeed the current reference level, but I wanted to try something different neither the XRGBs nor combos with DVDOs can offer, and even if the Vigatec way is not perfect and using some artifices, it's got many very attractive points.
Too bad there's no all-in-one Vigatec machine, I wonder if a tweaked firmware could somewhat fix the issues that bothered me on either a VC/Dune or Dune F.

PS: I'll probably acquire an FX2 some day if I find one for cheap, just to see with my own eyes, and that will probably be the end of my Vigatec experience.

[Fudoh]

I haven't experienced this GAME mode, since it's absent from the Dune F, so I am curious.
Aren't single-field deinterlacing methods usually faster ?

if the processor is programmed to be faster this way, but in real life, not necessarily.

So the VC/GVC/Dune (non-F) are built around an FLI2300 handling everything as well ?

No, I think only the Fi (successor to the F).

Too bad there's no all-in-one Vigatec machine

it's there - maybe. Sitting on ebay for 1000 EUR (the S1).

but I wanted to try something different neither the XRGBs nor combos with DVDOs can offer

what's that ? With all the major processors and combo here with me, I really couldn't think of anything I'm missing.

By using different output resolutions (480p, 720p, 1080p) you can alter sharpness in very nice and effective way. On the Framemeister you start out on the sharpest possible setting, but you can alter both the horizontal and the vertical scaling to get softer results. The Framemeister for example has a considerably more "analogue" look when used with 480p output compared to the XRGB2 or 3.

[Xyga]

but I wanted to try something different neither the XRGBs nor combos with DVDOs can offer

what's that ? With all the major processors and combo here with me, I really couldn't think of anything I'm missing.

It's really about that rendering, that specific look a Vigatec is able to produce, it's definitely another take and I like it.
The V/H sharpening settings in particular are amazing.

By using different output resolutions (480p, 720p, 1080p) you can alter sharpness in very nice and effective way. On the Framemeister you start out on the sharpest possible setting, but you can alter both the horizontal and the vertical scaling to get softer results. The Framemeister for example has a considerably more "analogue" look when used with 480p output compared to the XRGB2 or 3.

I am aware the Mini is awesome and able to do similar stuff and better, but I can't take the 24ms lag.
Maybe the Vigatecs produce as much lag as the Mini while linedoubling or up, maybe they produce less, I don't know (yet), and if they do then my quest is pointless.
Still, that won't stop me from trying more hardware/setups.

[Fudoh]

Interesting that you like it, I never did. I first had Faroudja's enhancement set on the old Crystalio (which I got in 2004). Good results on movie or video material, but for games ? I don't know. Did you ever have an Edge ? I could imagine that you like the detail enhancement on those units.

Maybe the Vigatecs produce as much lag as the Mini while linedoubling or up

my guess would be a YES.

[Xyga]

Interesting that you like it, I never did. I first had Faroudja's enhancement set on the old Crystalio (which I got in 2004). Good results on movie or video material, but for games ? I don't know. Did you ever have an Edge ? I could imagine that you like the detail enhancement on those units.

Yes I have an Edge (non-green) but I haven't tried much stuff with it yet, I'll do more soon.
My only experience for now is with some 480i, and although I like how it's good at keeping details up and even in the background while moving around, I have to admit the ringing becomes a bit annoying with time.
Couldn't find a 'sweet spot' for the enhancer, sometimes I feel +20 is okay and then after a while I find myself only looking at the ringing/slight coarseness around some colors.

What I got with the Dune F on 240p was something completely different anyway.

Maybe the Vigatecs produce as much lag as the Mini while linedoubling or up

my guess would be a YES.

I want figures !
Well I plan to put the Comm-Tec and Dune F to lag test torture as soon as possible (I'll request your guidance when the time comes, I want to do this correctly ).