Seems all old school dev's will all be retired soon. :(

[GaijinPunch]

I will admit: none of the new stuff appeals to me, but I simply don't have the time to devote to my hobbies like I used to, so some of the others are winning out. I'll bust out a game and play casually, but I won't be getting the next round of consoles... if I do, it will be a WiiU to play Pikmin 3... and then probably nothing else.

[Skykid]

Beyond Oasis excels in visuals, music, controls, secrets, and overall fantasy atmosphere.

Yet is still only a fart in the wind compared to the greats. I enjoyed it, good game. Limited, bit bland at times, short, easy, absolutely no towns/villages after the one at the beginning of the game, making the world a little soulless. But it's ok. Psuedo combat system that relies on you doing the same reliable move over and over. Neat but underused magic system after obtaining elementals. No real driving plot. Music disappointingly under par by Koshiro's standards - one of the most disappointing aspects in the game imo.

It's not bad though. It's what a JRPG would look like if it were an arcade game. That's a definite recommendation. Ain't no Zelda by any stretch of the imagination, but of course that being a series you never clicked with, I can understand your error of judgement.

[Ganelon]

I would actually put Beyond Oasis somewhere in my top 5 ARPGs. I get some of your issues don't get some of the others, at least not in comparison to Zelda.

For moves, there are quite a few special move options besides the basic combo. At certain levels and against certain enemies, it makes more sense to use a hop specials. Swords and bows can be useful at times. Compared to Zelda, Beyond Oasis has more options in this regard (weaker in Legend of Oasis though).

Magic is used for a lot of puzzles, way more than magic, songs, and even items are used for any Zelda game (up through Ocarina of Time at least). It's pretty creative that finding a magic source is sometimes in itself a puzzle.

Music has amazing variety. I can' think of a 16-bit soundtrack that incorporates as many styles as what Yuzo Koshiro put into Beyond Oasis (another area where the sequel falters by staying safe with more mellow pieces). The pieces may not sound the most aurally inspiring but the technique is amazing, at least in terms of what was wrangled out of the YM2612. Meanwhile, Zelda has a lot of safe, modest pieces mixed with a few really excellent tunes (the ones that get reused).

It's all good though. Like we both agree, I've never gotten what a player is supposed to really appreciate in Zelda. The plots are standard ARPG fare. The characters don't seem interesting. The mechanics are solid but pretty simple. Visuals are nice but the art style is funky. Always seemed like a pleasant, quality, "wholesome" but unexciting series to me. I would recommend the games to video game newcomers since they're what most folks tend to enjoy but there's definitely a disconnect somewhere. I don't really care to learn to enjoy the series though since I've played enough installments in the past and don't have the time for future playthroughs.

[Jonathan Ingram]

The titles listed in the OP are dinosaurs of game design. For better or worse, the gaming has moved on. You either accept this fact and learn to live with it or you rant and rave endlessly about the times long past like an old fart. Bottom line, diversify your gaming preferences and find new things to look forward to.

[Skykid]

Like we both agree, I've never gotten what a player is supposed to really appreciate in Zelda.

I enjoy having my mind boggled by statements like this. You should probably be appreciating a masterclass in game design.

I suppose if everyone agreed on everything we'd have nothing to talk about though.

OT: I play more classic games than new stuff, but I still find the odd current thing to get excited about, mainly handheld. Resogun is beautiful stuff and I'm looking forward to finally finishing the Gears series with 3. I don't think modern gaming is useless, but I prefer more straightforward skill tests in my diet. I don't like the idea that because it's meant to be cinematic, you can die and respawn and anyone can clear a game, BUT if you want to really master it you can hit up multiplayer and show people what for with achievements (snore). I appreciate there are some exceptions to the rule, but they're the ones folk usually make a fuss about "it's soooo haaard!"

[Sinful]

I don't know, I played Beyond Oasis once not too long ago, and I couldn't stop until I was done. That has to say something about it. Now if this game's replay is good too, I can see it being better then Zelda. If not, surely LandStalker is? (Man, I got to get back to this and figure out how to pregress this one area? I'm pretty far in). And that 2D Alundra game, again by Climax, looks better then Zelda too (need to play this still). Climax had a really good artist. Too bad he wasn't around to help Camelot for Shining Force 2.


Anywho, seems I lost a post?; Game dev limitations was another thing that greatly added to gamning too, believe it or not. Something that don't exist anymore. It really forced devs to think outside the box, adjust to hardware limitations (Gradius checkpoints), crazy bugs leading to ideas (Gradius Options), and even forcing good art via simpler spriteword (MegaMan not looking like intended. ie. PSP MegaMan Powered Up :p).


I'm still able to adjust to modern gaming it seems? (Spent lots of time, like 1/2 year, with just Skyrim & replaying Mass Effect Trilogy + online. Yeah, I sure obsesse, lol). But it don't mean I miss the older days of gaming more.

[quash]

I've always wondered what happened to Sega's development teams after they shuffled/disbanded them in 2003. Like, what happened to the Smilebit guys? Or the original Rosso team? Did they end up getting pushed aside, assigned to bum projects for the rest of their days, or what?

I can only imagine how cynical they are about modern gaming, in any case; it seems like they saw the writing on the wall years ago.

Also, I really don't see myself buying a PS4, XBO or Wii U. I bought both my PS3 and Vita this year, so I'm already kinda spent on console purchases. That, and I already have a pretty extensive backlog of 360 and PC games. Not to mention there's just nothing that appealing on any of them yet.

[Skykid]

I don't know, I played Beyond Oasis once not too long ago, and I couldn't stop until I was done. That has to say something about it. Now if this game's replay is good too, I can see it being better then Zelda.

It's not.

If not, surely LandStalker is?

It's not.

And that 2D Alundra game, again by Climax, looks better then Zelda too (need to play this still).

It's not.


:sigh:

[Hagane]

And that 2D Alundra game, again by Climax, looks better then Zelda too (need to play this still).

It is! It has some great and challenging puzzles. I remember being stuck at Lars' crypt for a long long time until I figured out its solution.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Magic is used for a lot of puzzles, way more than magic, songs, and even items are used for any Zelda game (up through Ocarina of Time at least). It's pretty creative that finding a magic source is sometimes in itself a puzzle.

Yeah, Beyond Oasis is a bit more linear than a some LoZ games, but it makes up for it in sheer creativity. Want to summon Efreet but don't have a fire source? Use magic on a bomb explosion! It has a way more dynamic puzzle system than LoZ games where it's a matter of getting the item you need, and where you use the item becomes obvious. Beyond Oasis also has a number of fun extras like hunting for the infinite weapons, the 100 level extra dungeon, beating the game without levelling up, etc. The combat is a bit easier, but that's because you've got a very large number of moves at your disposal (good!), and the enemies aren't quite balanced around it (bad). A harder mode woulda been helpful.

The original LoZ is fun because of its sheer scale, but a lot of it was experimentation with 'okay what wall do I need to bomb/tree do I need to burn'.

[Jonathan Ingram]

It's not.

It is. You are too infatuated with all things Nintendo(from their games to their chairmen) to see the truth. Alundra is basically what Zelda would be like if it weren`t designed with pre-adolescents in mind. The puzzles actually require you to think. Can you imagine a Zelda game like that?

[Skykid]

It's not.

It is. You are too infatuated with all things Nintendo(from their games to their chairmen) to see the truth. Alundra is basically what Zelda would be like if it weren`t designed with pre-adolescents in mind. The puzzles actually require you to think. Can you imagine a Zelda game like that?

Alundra is a good puzzle game with nothing else in-between. Its significant difficulty is not a measure of its overall worth, and it's stupid to suggest as much. It's not as good as Zelda. Nothing to do with infatuation, just critical appraisal of the product.

[Rob]

Also want to join the Alundra appreciation society. Love Zelda (favorite long running series), but overhead Zeldas inspired a lot of similar games and a few surpassed the blueprint in some important ways - better looking, smoother controlling (Oasis), more challenging (Landstalker, Alundra). Both still have the overall polish, atmosphere, tunes. Ali and Alundra also know how to run with the sneakers they leave the house with.

absolutely no towns/villages after the one at the beginning of the game, making the world a little soulless.

I like trees - they look nice and don't talk.

[Eaglet]

The first Alundra is in the same tier as ALttP.
Definitely one of my favorite Playstation games.
Everything about it is top notch; dungeon and puzzle design, challenge, art, music and even the darker mood.
A favorite.

[Skykid]

Definitely one of my favorite Playstation games.
Everything about it is top notch; dungeon and puzzle design, challenge, art, music and even the darker mood.
A favorite.

Yes it is. Good little game that really challenges the grey matter. Like brain training purely in dungeon form.

The first Alundra is in the same tier as ALttP.

No it's not. I can keep this up all month.

[Drum]

It's so weird to me that people think Zelda needs harder puzzles. No it fucking does not. Harder everything else ... yes.

[Jonathan Ingram]

No it's not. I can keep this up all month.

And you`ll be wrong every single time. Zelda finds its peers in Tower of Druaga, Dragon Slayer and Hydlide. Everything else is just plain outside of its reach as far as quality is concerned.

[Drum]

Now you're just being a dumbfuck.

[Skykid]

Now you're just being a dumbfuck.

I know, which is so weird, since in everything except taste in video games he strikes me as pretty intelligent. Nobody's perfect though.

[Hagane]

Maybe bringing some points besides "ALttP is better because I say so" might raise the level of this discussion.

[Rob]

It's so weird to me that people think Zelda needs harder puzzles.

Drum likes lighting torches and pushing the block.

[PedroMD]

It's so weird to me that people think Zelda needs harder puzzles. No it fucking does not. Harder everything else ... yes.

For the most part, what Zelda needs are actual puzzles, not the standard "use item A in switch A" fare or "light all the torches in this room" (or worse, light all the torches in this room OVER A SLIPPERY SURFACE). What it needs is more stuff like the top floors of the Tower of Spirits, from Spirit Tracks. That requires serious planning across various rooms and even floors to figure out what to do.
People can badmouth the DS games all they want, since they are particularly guilty of having inane "puzzles" (use boomerang to hit switch... except now you have to DRAW the path), but the Tower of Spirits is likely one of the best things of the entire series.

[Ganelon]

Zelda finds its peers in Tower of Druaga, Dragon Slayer and Hydlide.

That's actually pretty much where I'd place the original Legend of Zelda in terms of personal enjoyment factor as well. I don't think Hydlide Special is atrocious either, although it's certainly not a game I'd spend time on nowadays. Meanwhile, give me the next iteration of Ys I & II anyday (well, unless it's 3D again).

Alundra is fun but the brown/grey palette is depressing (as much so as Zelda's traditional green). Magic Knight Rayearth on SS is pretty much the exact opposite with vibrant color and trivial puzzles, and I happen to like it a lot more. Or sticking with the PS, Brave Prove has lower production values but I find it an overall more enjoyable ARPG (maybe because it seems to have been heavily inspired by Beyond Oasis).

[SuperGrafx]

I will admit: none of the new stuff appeals to me, but I simply don't have the time to devote to my hobbies like I used to, so some of the others are winning out. I'll bust out a game and play casually, but I won't be getting the next round of consoles... if I do, it will be a WiiU to play Pikmin 3... and then probably nothing else.

I happen to agree with you.
While an Xbox One would be nice to have for Forza 5, I simply can't justify spending $500+ on a console for one game right now.
Like you, other priorities and hobbies are winning out.
Guess we're getting older.

[Ed Oscuro]

Wonder how Golden Axe Warrior and Sylvan Tale match up to these games. Sylvan Tale, at least, seems to have a kind of reputation for smarter puzzles than the Zelda games.

It is a depressing thought that Majora's Mask might get less consideration than Ocarina and the others because it requires some time-based thinking. I don't recall the traditional format of the puzzles being difficult at all or outside the norm for the series, but the fourth-dimensional aspect was welcome stimulation for ze leetle gray cells.

Earlier today it did hit me that Ys has a lot in common with these games as well. Many of these games (including Beyond Oasis) really do suffer from not having a really compelling mechanic to make the random combats seem useful. In Ys, you can hit your max level fairly early and then it's about finding items. In the Zelda games, it's about rupees, but you can get the same problem - and then you have uneven patches where you find yourself playing for rupees for a while, then doing puzzles, and basically going back and forth multiple times between different meta-games. Beyond Oasis tends to give you items from enemies but that doesn't mean that fighting random enemies is more interesting than in the other games if they're just inbetween you and your goal on the map. You still have an incentive just to run past most enemies in that game too.

Eternal Darkess, which is kind of a compressed series of Zelda-like dungeons in a 3D engine, tries to make combat seem useful by giving you a bit of your sanity meter back if you manage to perform a finishing move on an enemy. Unfortunately there is the apparently unpredictable element of whether you can sneak around without being spotted (no luck with that most of the time, combat is often forced) and some enemies will unpredictably (on your first playthrough) reveal second forms which suck away yet more sanity, and quite often mobs are dense enough that you can't perform finishing moves before enemies disappear - so you were better off not fighting them and just fleeing to the next area. This is reinforced fairly early in the game after you can use a recovery spell to get sanity recovery essentially for free, eliminating any rational incentive for fighting enemies outside of specific areas and in inescapable encounters.

Of course people will complain mightily (and I think reasonably) about the infamous devices to force combat: "a rock fell, blocking the entrance" and it will only crumble after you defeat the two purple frogs / "you encounter a magical barrier" which only defeating a wave of dumb enemies that would not possibly have any ability to put up such a barrier.

I will admit: none of the new stuff appeals to me, but I simply don't have the time to devote to my hobbies like I used to, so some of the others are winning out. I'll bust out a game and play casually, but I won't be getting the next round of consoles... if I do, it will be a WiiU to play Pikmin 3... and then probably nothing else.

I happen to agree with you.
While an Xbox One would be nice to have for Forza 5, I simply can't justify spending $500+ on a console for one game right now.
Like you, other priorities and hobbies are winning out.
Guess we're getting older.

I don't see how it's rational to spend hard-earned money on a launch console when I seriously was able to pick up one from the current generation for 1/40th the asking price, and when there are plenty of games for older systems / arcade that can be bought cheaply for systems that are proven and relatively cheap. You get a lot less entertainment for your money than going for something that's already lost value. That's why I'm going back and buying a couple of the Xbox and other games that I always wanted to try but couldn't afford. Now they're cheap and so are systems!

[Skykid]

It's so weird to me that people think Zelda needs harder puzzles. No it fucking does not. Harder everything else ... yes.

For the most part, what Zelda needs are actual puzzles, not the standard "use item A in switch A" fare or "light all the torches in this room" (or worse, light all the torches in this room OVER A SLIPPERY SURFACE). What it needs is more stuff like the top floors of the Tower of Spirits, from Spirit Tracks. That requires serious planning across various rooms and even floors to figure out what to do.

What a load of bullshit. As if Zelda's dungeons consist entirely of single room puzzles... like Alundra - as opposed to overarching requirements that require broader thinking and plenty of backtracking to work out. Someone hasn't played either of the 64 games, that's for sure. And please stop talking about Spirit Tracks like it's anything marginally above Phantom Hourglass. The DS games are trite and pretty mediocre Zelda-by-numbers with a little boat and a little train; which is how the discussion started: the drop-off of the series post Majora.

Hilarity ensues in this thread. First Alundra and Beyond Oasis are better than a LttP (stop the presses, call the mayor, shout it from the rooftops, the world needs correcting!) now it's Zelda has rubbish dungeons.

Carry on chaps. Your words are immortalised on this forum, no turning back now.

[AntiFritz]

This is reinforced fairly early in the game after you can use a recovery spell to get sanity recovery essentially for free, eliminating any rational incentive for fighting enemies outside of specific areas and in inescapable encounters.

That depends on which alignment you pick, picking ulyaoth for example has you get the ability to recovery sanity as late as max's chapter.

[Ed Oscuro]

This is reinforced fairly early in the game after you can use a recovery spell to get sanity recovery essentially for free, eliminating any rational incentive for fighting enemies outside of specific areas and in inescapable encounters.

That depends on which alignment you pick, picking ulyaoth for example has you get the ability to recovery sanity as late as max's chapter.

Indeed I did, and that's the chapter I've just finished. So if that's the latest wait to get that sanity restoration spell, then you're sitting in extreme comfort - all it realistically takes to get all your sanity back is running around in place for a while. Sanity restoration didn't make as much of a difference in early chapters (however I admit that it would be easy to lose all your sanity in those early chapters with ease). I have been quite good about not ruining this game with spoilers, but I did want to find out a bit of information on Pious' original choice, and also the deal with the ruby statuette.

When you think about it, it doesn't take very long to get to Max's chapter, which is why I consider it fairly early (Karim's chapter for instance is very short, even with more difficult battles than any previous chapter, once you know where you're going and what you're doing). There also seem to be quite a few chapters afterwards.

It is pretty hilarious that Max is the one who got the sanity restoration spell for me. I AM DEAD TO YOUR CAUSE!

Anyway, the take-away I've tried to present is that games can try to make combat have some "hooks" but careless design decisions can undercut that entirely. None of the games we've analyzed so far (Zelda, Ys, ED, quite obviously the Metroid Prime games, etc.) manage to escape the trap of having combat that feels (and is) optional and not especially compelling.

I think Okami on the DS doesn't feel that bad, probably simply because you get the motivation for item grinding fairly quickly, and the game is fairly well-balanced in allowing you to make progress while not having to explicitly grind much of the time, and also because escaping combat is often more engaged than in the other games. A substantial negative is that Okami's combat is so quirky and odd-feeling. I didn't get as sick of the combat arenas as I would have expected, which is a minor miracle in of itself, but I wouldn't say that form of combat fulfilled any dreams of mine, either.

[AntiFritz]

This is reinforced fairly early in the game after you can use a recovery spell to get sanity recovery essentially for free, eliminating any rational incentive for fighting enemies outside of specific areas and in inescapable encounters.

That depends on which alignment you pick, picking ulyaoth for example has you get the ability to recovery sanity as late as max's chapter.

Indeed I did, and that's the chapter I've just finished. So if that's the latest wait to get that sanity restoration spell, then you're sitting in extreme comfort - all it realistically takes to get all your sanity back is running around in place for a while. Sanity restoration didn't make as much of a difference in early chapters (however I admit that it would be easy to lose all your sanity in those early chapters with ease). I have been quite good about not ruining this game with spoilers, but I did want to find out a bit of information on Pious' original choice, and also the deal with the ruby statuette.

When you think about it, it doesn't take very long to get to Max's chapter, which is why I consider it fairly early (Karim's chapter for instance is very short, even with more difficult battles than any previous chapter, once you know where you're going and what you're doing). There also seem to be quite a few chapters afterwards.

It is pretty hilarious that Max is the one who got the sanity restoration spell for me. I AM DEAD TO YOUR CAUSE!

Yeah I forgot some of the early chapters are extremely short (20 mins or so for the first few). Running around to recover mana is the thing I like the least about the game. I found the game difficult at a few parts early on, until I found out you can essentially refill your health any time you want.

[Ed Oscuro]

It is pretty hilarious that Max is the one who got the sanity restoration spell for me. I AM DEAD TO YOUR CAUSE!

Yeah I forgot some of the early chapters are extremely short (20 mins or so for the first few). Running around to recover mana is the thing I like the least about the game. I found the game difficult at a few parts early on, until I found out you can essentially refill your health any time you want.

Perhaps it would've been smart to have killing enemies (even without a finishing move) be tied to mana recovery. If nothing else the mana recovery thing looks like it'll cause headaches later by limiting battle options. I have smacked blades against walls enough already, thank you very much!