Whats going on in america?

A place where you can chat about anything that isn't to do with games!
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

A quick response for Domino:
Domino wrote:I can't fathom people making more money by working less.
That is the problem with the extreme anti-redistributionist logic of the Tea Party and many incumbent or activist Republicans: Society simply tends to distort the importance of certain jobs in terms of the pay received, while giving fuck all attention to other, equally important, often more difficult jobs. Therefore a Nobel Prize winner might only ever get that cash prize and a middling salary at a research insitution, while a hedge manager who has fuck all idea about even how the economy works rakes in millions simply by being in the right place at the right time, and having a plan that almost accidentally works. And people who put roofs on houses make far less than people who run with balls for a living.

I don't believe that it is wrong for there to be wealthy people who can steer the economy, but it needs to be held in check: In part by the technocrats who ask the question "what actually is good for the economy at large?" and in part by the progressive movement which understands that if things get bad enough, the masses will have some wisdom about how to make it more equitable again.

BulletMagnet wrote a lot, so here is a big response:
BulletMagnet wrote:Well, the American people (even in the face of particularly ruthless gerrymandering and corporate shadow funding, though now that the Voting Rights Act has been repealed it's going to get even worse)
Most of this is a problem, but the VRA hasn't been totally gutted. Rather what the Supreme Court found is that they don't believe Justice can automatically make the argument that some states are not compliant with the Act. If there are abuses, they can be brought individually. Of course it's a problem in terms of efficiency - if you can assume that an Administration is working for the people, and they are bringing actions under the VRA, having them not be automatically approved means that less gets done. But our system - our Constitution, even - has this anti-democratic element of the states' rights. I can also mention that it shouldn't automatically be assumed that because a VRA violation is alleged, that it is true. It also isn't true that having two types of states - states alleged to be habitual offenders, and states that are alleged not to be - makes much sense either. VRA violations can and do happen anywhere, and focusing on stated assumed to be in violation can take the heat off other states.
So why is the GOP suddenly taking such an uncharacteristically gung-ho, interventionist, Screw-the-Constitution, break-all-the-rules-and-we-don't-care stance instead of simply sitting back, letting the law fail miserably, and saying "we told you so" whilst sweeping the next round of elections with minimal effort?
Well, you've answered your question. I also want to point out that what they're doing isn't against the Constitution - in fact the Constitution doesn't even recognize that we have things called political parties; the Framers only assumed there would be political factions, instead of mega-blocs of disparate interests organized into parties. In terms of breaking the rules, that's also allowed. It is pretty clear that the rules are too permissive in this case.

Stuff like this is only part of the reason I'm skeptical about laws and rules in general: There will always be some case where the same rules will work well, or work badly. Rules and laws typically assume that there is a normal pattern of conduct, and either you go off the deep end trying to cover every possible angle (and end up limiting necessary freedoms - in ways that can come back to bite you) or you leave things open to people who know the holes in the system. We're living in a time where people are exploiting gaps in the rules to create chaos. However, there have also been times in American history where people have exploited the rules to crush necessary dissent. I don't think it's actually possible to have a system that perfectly prevents both possibilities. Even the mechanisms of making elected officials more accountable through systems like the Parliamentary system's easy coalition forming and the ability to call elections at any time - these things still don't guarantee that the actors in the system will be good or that the process will be orderly or disruptive as necessary.
Answer: the party's primary big-money backers (including those who use health care costs as an excuse to pay their employees pitiful take-home salaries, i.e. pretty much every sizable employer) have way too much to lose
I don't think that's actually true in many cases. The universal healthcare promise was greatly appealing to many employers - we don't have to pay for health care! - and to insurance companies - we get tons of new members! - so both the Chamber of Commerce and the insurance groups were tentatively supportive of the change.

I really think this just comes down to that old ultra-Calvinist belief that you characterized earlier, and a feeling of "what's mine is mine." A lot of the Tea Party movers and shakers have little education in government economy and just wanted to pull down the system because "what's mine is mine."

What they present as an argument about economic theory - which is certainly wrong - really just obscures an intended morality question, which in turn is based just on a feeling and very little careful reasoning about why we should care about the supposed moral argument. Of course, things get more confused when everybody is so intent on just framing things in a way that sounds good - when you're being driven by rhetoric the only thing you are tied to are raw emotions, and nothing finer than that.
User avatar
BulletMagnet
Posts: 14151
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am
Location: Wherever.
Contact:

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BulletMagnet »

Domino wrote:I can't fathom people making more money by working less.
It isn't the grunts toiling away at minimum wage who are taking paid time off to practice their golf swing...or for totally legitimate "business trips" to various island resorts. Not to mention hiding their assets in shell companies that exist only on paper to avoid paying taxes on them.
Ed Oscuro wrote:It also isn't true that having two types of states - states alleged to be habitual offenders, and states that are alleged not to be - makes much sense either. VRA violations can and do happen anywhere, and focusing on stated assumed to be in violation can take the heat off other states.
I suppose this is true to a point, but considering that several states formerly under the eye of the VRA immediately cued up a smorgasbord of Voter ID and other such laws (despite overwhelming hard evidence that voter fraud is a total nonfactor in any type of election in this country) after the Act was rolled back, I'm not convinced that we've come far enough to claim that "the possibility of suppression is more or less equal no matter where you live" with a straight face. Maybe they won't threaten you with bodily harm anymore, but there are still people in positions of power who can and will do whatever they can get away with to make re-election smoother (as my own state's governor and his joke of a "special election" next week have shown in abundance, though in fairness mine isn't a former slave state).
Stuff like this is only part of the reason I'm skeptical about laws and rules in general: There will always be some case where the same rules will work well, or work badly. Rules and laws typically assume that there is a normal pattern of conduct, and either you go off the deep end trying to cover every possible angle (and end up limiting necessary freedoms - in ways that can come back to bite you) or you leave things open to people who know the holes in the system. We're living in a time where people are exploiting gaps in the rules to create chaos.
It's true that no law is perfect, but we're talking about 1) The bedrock process concerning how a law is created and passed, not some minor technicality, and 2) 1) A party that routinely puts the Constitution and founding fathers on golden pedestals and declares them sacrosanct. One can quibble with any law one pleases, but in this case I'd very much consider that a distraction from the much more evident and clear-cut issues at hand.
I don't think that's actually true in many cases. The universal healthcare promise was greatly appealing to many employers - we don't have to pay for health care! - and to insurance companies - we get tons of new members! - so both the Chamber of Commerce and the insurance groups were tentatively supportive of the change.
Which is why, if you'll recall, they lobbied fiercely to have the single-payer option and other vital provisions stripped from the bill, and still aren't satisfied with their work (and are moreover using the act as an excuse to cut employees' hours or fire them outright, never mind that over 90 percent of the economic gains since the recession have gone to the one-percenters). Times are tight, peasants!
Of course, things get more confused when everybody is so intent on just framing things in a way that sounds good - when you're being driven by rhetoric the only thing you are tied to are raw emotions, and nothing finer than that.
The problem is, pretty much nobody in a position of authority these days seems willing to stand up and say "making important decisions based on emotions alone is ludicrous, and anyone who tells you to act upon anything but available, tangible facts is a charlatan out to milk you dry." At more enlightened points in our nation's history a lot of the people you see behind a podium or on camera wouldn't have been allowed within spitting distance of the national discourse; heck, can you see any of the Ted Cruzes or Sean Hannitys out there earning anything other than a well-deserved belt in the mouth from Eisenhower and a daily, in-depth scolding from Cronkite if they tried to get either of them or any of their contemporaries in on their games?
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

What is this "bedrock process" you speak of? Process includes law, but it also fills the areas untouched by law; it includes the collection of conventions and niceties that help the process run smoothly, and which translate the written words into actual events. Law is just a part of the process. If feelings about the process change, then the traditional process might be purposefully violated - and no laws need be broken. Hopefully you see why it is I have gone on some apparent tangents. I mentioned my skepticism regarding rules because what we actually use to judge whether something is right or wrong can't be encapsulated by a simple rule. We are always reliant on the common sense (and education) of the people to respect order when necessary - and when it's necessary to support upheaval for good. If there was slavery in the United States, for example, I think it would be reasonable for a minority to shut down the government and even default on the debt to force an Administration to face the issue; we've done far more on account of slavery than this. There is nothing the Tea Party and the Republicans have done that is unconstitutional here. They've simply held up the process because they have a different belief about what's vitally important than do the Democrats (and many Republicans, and the public at large).

This doesn't mean that it's wrong to detest what they're doing - it just means that we should be aware of what the system can and can't do, so we don't ask it to do things it wasn't intended to. They will likely pay dearly for their little moment on the wrong side of history, but (again that meddlesome law!) electoral reckoning will be too far off for much to be done about it in the meantime, unless massive recall efforts can be put in place.

Many Tea Partiers sincerely believe that eliminating the debt and a strong central government are two policies vital to the survival of the United States or at least its people - they are dead wrong on both counts, but don't expect them to become educated on this issue overnight. It's ironic because I bet a sizable portion of the original Tea Party activists went on to become members of the Federalist party, instead of the anti-federalist party. There was probably a split between people who thought one thing and the other, but the Tea Party itself was a big issue they could all agree on - it wasn't concerned with the scope of government or fiscal policy. Probably what we could say about that time, as different from today, was that a fair number of people agreed on what needed to be done. Of course, there were also large numbers of people who would have gladly sabotaged these efforts towards Revolution, either because they were indifferent to the political aims and valued their security, or because they were loyalists. But at least at that time the actual revolutionary movement's members were wise enough to tackle the problem immediately at hand, rather than try to anticipate future splits and revolts.

Speaking of process and conventions, there's also a convention (the "Hastert Rule") that the majority leader - i.e. the Speaker, voted by the House of Representatives to an office enumerated in the Constitution - will not bring legislation to the floor unless it is approved of by a majority of their caucus, even if the combination of a large minority of their party and all of an opposing party actually support it.

This is anti-democratic, but it's also pluralistic. Again, there are times where the "Hastert Rule" is bad, but it's simply naive to expect it not to exist.

Much of this simply wasn't a part of political reality at the time the Constitution was written, so on some issues the Constitution is (and must be) silent. But even if some of these things were part of the process, it would be wrong for the lawmakers to try to force human judgment and the conventions of process out of the system.

A couple other issues: I also think it's wrong to lump the entire business community in with support for the Tea Party, and a moment's reflection without making hyperbolic claims will reveal this to be true. Wall Street hates this shutdown. At the very least you'll have to modify your claim from "The Tea Party does the bidding of its masters" to "The Tea Party has escaped the grasp of its masters" (I don't really agree with this either, but there's certainly a lot of money going from all causes to all parties and it's hard to try to unravel. But I think it's a mistake to try to construct a monolithic Elite Conspiracy here, which is essentially what I think your comments suggest).

About the VRA changes - they're problematic, but I don't believe this will have the sweeping effects that some have feared. That doesn't mean it's not a wasteful move overall, and detrimental to political liberty. You rightly mention voter ID laws. Unlike the previous case, I think this is a time when it's helpful to have a view of what's causing it - and quite clearly many of these moves are being pushed by the Republicans, because voter suppression is important political tactic for them to try to negate Democrat votes when the momentum favors Democrats turning out in large numbers. But here, again, I would urge seeing how far the movement goes, and where it doesn't go. This is mainly a Republican strategy which appears pretty much self-contained. Yes, it probably does suit many of the wealthy (and the highly educated) to have this Republican strategy, and it doesn't let anybody off the hook if they are even just implicitly supporting policies with bogus rationales, but the people who are actually involved with it are likely doing it solely as a Republican party tactic (they never admit it but it's pretty clear they are highly motivated to do so). It's the kind of tactic that is the bread and butter of a political party. Again, though, there's nothing illegal here - it's just not good policy.
User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Ed Oscuro wrote:the majority leader - i.e. the Speaker
Poor Eric Cantor. I don't think anyone knows who he is or what his position is supposed to actually entail. (I certainly don't, beyond "make an extra ~20k a year for standing behind John when he's on tv.")
PSX Vita: Slightly more popular than Color TV-Game system. Almost as successful as the Wii U.
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Oh, my mistake :) Yeah, he is a Majority Leader in everything but title. It's confusing because his counterpart in the Senate isn't a Speaker and isn't elected according to a Constitutional office, similar to the House Majority Leader (neither of these latter positions explicitly called for in the Constitution).
User avatar
quash
Posts: 1361
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:25 am
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by quash »

We cogs of the war machine aren't that affected... yet. There is word that they'll be cutting allowances, but I'll believe it when I see it. Meanwhile, the Pentagon is bringing civilians back to work; showing that no matter what the circumstances, the lumbering, inefficient beast that is the DoD cannot be stopped.

Still, I know very well what it feels like to be out of work, so my condolences to those who have been affected.

[quote=Ed Oscuro]I also think it's wrong to lump the entire business community in with support for the Tea Party, and a moment's reflection without making hyperbolic claims will reveal this to be true. Wall Street hates this shutdown. At the very least you'll have to modify your claim from "The Tea Party does the bidding of its masters" to "The Tea Party has escaped the grasp of its masters" (I don't really agree with this either, but there's certainly a lot of money going from all causes to all parties and it's hard to try to unravel. But I think it's a mistake to try to construct a monolithic Elite Conspiracy here, which is essentially what I think your comments suggest).[/quote]

Which begs the question: who is supporting the Tea Party, and why? At this point, all but the most fringe lunatics should be able to see just how destructive they are.
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Happy "Six more months of queasiness and then the Republicans rule and ruin the holidays," everyone!

The DoD isn't stopped but it is losing ground. My local paper's take on the shutdown: The National Guard is out of parts and can't afford gas.

I don't really want to know what the effect is on the General Services Administration at the local Federal Center. You know all those old monitors and stuff people like to get? If it's from the military, it goes through them.

Another thing that's not happening as a result of the shutdown is the normal process of auto recalls:
For every NHTSA workday lost to the furlough, an average of three recalls covering 80,000 vehicles are delayed indefinitely, she said.
Of course, the automotive manufacturers can still issue important recalls, but some things will fall through the cracks, and they also won't face the kinds of scrutiny and process the NHTSA subjects them to normally.
quash wrote:Which begs the question: who is supporting the Tea Party, and why? At this point, all but the most fringe lunatics should be able to see just how destructive they are.
Well, one of the panelists on today's Diane Rehm show had a comment about who is supporting them specifically. Unfortunately I don't remember what was said. (I like how the second segment from today, about the importance of focusing, ties in with the headline of the Koch Brothers article.)

I think the old saw of "follow the money" is true but we also have to remember that most Tea Party influence in Congress is through the 2010 midterm elections - and I believe many of those were "grassroots" campaigns. There are definitely people with money funding them, but it doesn't have to be at the same levels. Basically, some shrewd operators figured out a dodge - get a part of one political party in one house of one branch of the government and you can paralyze it!

The old Democratic whipping boys, the Koch brothers, appear to be one of the keys to the Tea Party. But in recent days they have distanced themselves from their handiwork. Perhaps this is the result of simple stupidity in failing to anticipate what being part of FreedomWorks, which advocated a government shutdown if a continuing resolution didn't fund the Affordable Care Act, or perhaps it's a reaction to what I assume has been a strong backlash against this maneuver. Time will have to tell.

More information about what Tea Partiers are like, how they operate, and how much support they have had (probably at their height) in 2011 is here.
By the way, there's a bit on the question "is the Tea Party going to stick around?" in the first picture of the article and its caption.

Drumroll:
http://www.politico.com/gallery/2013/10 ... 19248.html
“I think, personally, it would bring stability to the world markets.” — Rep. Ted Yoho (R-Fla.) on what happens if the debt limit isn’t raised, the Washington Post, Oct. 4
User avatar
trap15
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:13 am
Location: 東京都杉並区
Contact:

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by trap15 »

@trap0xf | daifukkat.su/blog | scores | FIRE LANCER
<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.
User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Well. Looks like we're not gonna do anything yet again. Maybe two hours just before we default and Canada repos away Maryland.

Jon Stewart had a segment yesterday about the Medicaid expansion sabotage I mentioned earlier, and how it makes some people's lives worse than they otherwise could have been. It's nice to see at least one talking head get pissed off at, well, can we call this "evil"? I think it meets the criteria. It's still just pitiful that Comedy Central has a better team of journalists than the other networks (other than PBS).

In more important news.

I've always been very sad there isn't a speedy initialism for the Democratic Party like there is with the GOP. You can use "DP", but everyone will read that as "Double Penetration" or "Dualing Penises". That isn't optimal. To make things more zesty, I have invented a new nickname for The Party: The Donkey Punchers.

You're welcome. This heavy lifting is hard.
PSX Vita: Slightly more popular than Color TV-Game system. Almost as successful as the Wii U.
User avatar
BulletMagnet
Posts: 14151
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am
Location: Wherever.
Contact:

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BulletMagnet »

Ed Oscuro wrote:This doesn't mean that it's wrong to detest what they're doing - it just means that we should be aware of what the system can and can't do, so we don't ask it to do things it wasn't intended to.
I understand what you're getting at, but at the same time I can't help but find it a bit of a hair-splitter to separate The Law itself from the general principle of "yeah, maybe we ought to, y'know, follow this, since that's our job description and what we've built our party's reputation on (when convenient)". Part of civilization is putting up with at least some laws and such that you don't like without resorting to threatening far-reaching catastrophes in response (though of late the right seem to have taken up the notion that default really wouldn't be that bad...in that case, what's the point? Why didn't we all do this years ago?) Heaven knows that liberals like myself cringed whenever Bush did pretty much anything, Constitutional or otherwise, but the Dems in Congress never brought the process to a standstill or threatened to do so, and none of their constituents seemed to be demanding they do it...should we have? Methinks Iraq, high-end tax cuts and various kowtowing to business interests (though I suppose some of that was simply a continuation of that feckless radical Clinton's policies) will almost certainly have had a greater (negative) influence on the country than Obamacare ever will, and that's not the half of it.
I also think it's wrong to lump the entire business community in with support for the Tea Party, and a moment's reflection without making hyperbolic claims will reveal this to be true.
Yeah, I know, but...
Wall Street hates this shutdown.
Honestly, the longer this goes on the less I'm inclined to believe this...if they were really that concerned they would have taken the Republicans out back weeks or months ago. Considering how well they made out after nearly wrecking the economy a few years back (during which, I might add, they had the audacity to insist that their bailouts contain no strings attached...to which Bush, naturally, obliged, and Obama has made no effort to change), my more cynical side wonders whether they wouldn't mind doing it again, so long as it eventually got them one more tax break or some other anti-worker perk to add to their collection. Again, they own pretty much everything these days, and can wait out any crisis you throw at them; the rest of us are the ones left out in the lurch if things go south.
But here, again, I would urge seeing how far the movement goes, and where it doesn't go.
I'm honestly baffled (though i suppose I shouldn't be at this point) that the liberal leadership is so bleeding incompetent that they didn't shoot this one down in its infancy...as I said earlier there's mountains of evidence that completely dismantles the "voter fraud" angle, which is pretty much the only leg they're standing on - then again, when the Dems are handed the eight-year debacle of the Bush years and can only nominate someone who promises from the start not to investigate a single thing they did, and THEN get handed something like the LIBOR scandal, which should have instantly reduced the "business is just hard numbers and totally immune to tampering" angle to the sick joke that it is, and do absolutely nothing with it. The conservative pit bulls will just keep on snapping and frothing as they've always done, and the libs will whimper and wet themselves no matter how commanding an advantage they ought to have.
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

What you or I believe doesn't matter - you have to look at the facts to find out what's going on. The facts won't be found in our prejudices - just new sources of persistent ignorance. Let's have a look at the facts, then.

Here's a metric:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013 ... fear-gauge
(The actual graphs are here; no, I don't know why they don't have the usual options for selecting the range you want.)

During the 2011 shutdown threat, the VIX rose to 48; at the time of the article I read (a couple days ago) which mentioned that, the VIX was less than half that. And now it's beaten the '95 record for options (these might be slightly different metrics based on the VIX, but it gives the idea: Traders are scared).

Of course there will be some businesses that have people working at them (even running or owning them) who might like the shutdown and the debt ceiling for reasons of ideology, but as I mentioned, even Super Koch Bros. hate it right now.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10 ... -with-gop/

This article also mentions some latest poll numbers (I don't think they were actually available to Boehner at the time he announced the six-week extension, because what I'd read that day was that the difference was just 10% between blame for Dems and Republicans) which are starting to look very bad for the Republicans - bigger than in 1995. There won't be an election for a while, but it'll be interesting to see who remembers this mess when that time comes, and whether this will translate to any enthusiasm getting people to the polls. Dems should probably run on it in the midterms next year.

What I've said before about the divide - partisanship vs. policies - shows true more than ever here. Lots of people believe they support Republicans or Democrats based on policies, but the truth is that membership is often based on liking your party and hating the other party. The Republican/Tea Party fringe has intensified enthusiasm amongst a lot of people who like to hear racist, bigoted, unrealistic things, but now the split between reality (what people want in policies) and the fantasy (that people want to have their special feelings stroked) is starting to be laid bare. Many people might not have made the leap, but this problem has happened because the most engaging storytellers are also usually the most fanciful - and the least tied-down with the wants and needs of the average American, as measured by typical American voters' preferences on policy, which is pretty much "spend just as much as always, or more" for members of both parties, a centrist approach.
User avatar
Edmond Dantes
Posts: 995
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:17 am

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Edmond Dantes »

BryanM wrote:You can use "DP", but everyone will read that as "Double Penetration" or "Dualing Penises".
"Dueling Penises."

Unless you meant to imply that democrats all have two penises.
The resident X-Multiply fan.
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

year of the snake

draggin' dat democrat dragon

it's true though, many people like to make this joke about Hillary. Poor Hillary.
User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Edmond Dantes wrote:"Dueling Penises."

Unless you meant to imply that democrats all have two penises.
I explicitly remember looking at it and going "hrm, that would be more interesting the other way", pressing the back space keys, and changing the e to an a.

That's the kind of person I am.
User avatar
BulletMagnet
Posts: 14151
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am
Location: Wherever.
Contact:

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BulletMagnet »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Of course there will be some businesses that have people working at them (even running or owning them) who might like the shutdown and the debt ceiling for reasons of ideology, but as I mentioned, even Super Koch Bros. hate it right now.
I certainly hope you're right, especially once we're past the short term...it'd be nice if, when the hard right pulls this sort of stunt again (and heaven knows they will, as it's pretty much the only trick in their playbook...not that they've needed much else up to this point), a laundry list of big names in the business world immediately and vocally cut ties with them, openly denounce their actions, and (heavens to Betsy) put away their checkbooks. I'm still not as hopeful as you are on this front considering that they shouldn't even be as cozy with the fringe as they already are, but I certainly wouldn't mind being proved wrong on this one.
Unless you meant to imply that democrats all have two penises.
Still doesn't do you any good if you don't have any balls. :P
User avatar
DEL
Posts: 4187
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:23 pm
Location: Oort Cloud

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by DEL »

So the EBT Food Stamps system is currently down in America. Hmm...I didn't see that one coming. I expected a Blackout instead but it makes sense from their point of view. It has a similar effect.
Now we wait to see if it really IS a computer glitch....

In other news, here's a nice video on fake whistleblowers Snowden and Assange: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VLaNVNpotI
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

That's a temporary glitch from Xerox's administration:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/201 ... s/2972713/

That said, I recall something on the front page of yesterday's paper about it.

What I've read is that SNAP (the food stamps program) is funded by the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. If it's not subject to appropriations (i.e. the Congress agreeing to continue to fund the program, as opposed to needing to specifically defund the program, like they would have had to do with Obamacare, which is also not subject to appropriations as far as I know) then it keeps on rollin' along.
User avatar
Moniker
Posts: 2149
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 3:28 pm

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Moniker »

My previous statement re: preferring libertarians over republicans was clearly not thought out properly.


HOWEVER! This bullshit with the debt-ceiling is unacceptable. Obama may have set a bad precedent in '11, but this kind of head-in-ass governance is unacceptable. When did American politics become the direct analogue of manufactured NFL rivalries? I just hope that Obama doesn't flinch; even if the country defaults. Otherwise, democracy has failed in spectacular fashion.

Edit: Also: the foodstamp failure was a computer glitch, not an effect of the shutdown. I'll likely be out of a job if the foodstamps fail for realzies at the beginning of november.
The freaks are rising through the floor.
Recommended XBLIG shmups.
Top 20 Doujin Shmups of ALL TIME.
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Lame. I wanted to see another depression. : [
When did American politics become the direct analogue of manufactured NFL rivalries?
Sometime around when Bush beat Mom from Futurama for the kingship of Texas. FOX News was established in 1996, fresh off the back of Limbaugh's 1988 national debut and success.
PSX Vita: Slightly more popular than Color TV-Game system. Almost as successful as the Wii U.
User avatar
Domino
Posts: 1346
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:35 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Domino »

Remember me guys regarding I'm trying to get on the Healthcare website?

Well I'm finally on it!

Here's what the cheapest prices I could get for the following plans. Regarding the plans the more you spend per month = the more extras you get (lower copay cost, X-Ray coverage, Dental, etc). I just focus on the price per month, the deductible, the out of pocket maximum, and how much the plan covers after meeting deductible.

Please note for me I'm 24, single, income is around $34k per year, and based in Florida.

Catastrophic Plan: $171.29/mo. Deductible $6,350 Out–of–pocket maximum $6,350 No % when it comes to how much they will cover after meeting deductible.

Bronze Plan: $175.35/mo. Deductible $4,500 Out–of–pocket maximum $6,350 Plan covers 60% of total average cost of care

Silver Plan: $217.87/mo. Deductible $1,700 Out–of–pocket maximum $3,950 Plan covers 70% of total average cost of care

Gold Plan: $253.02/mo. Deductible $1,300 Out–of–pocket maximum $2,600 Plan covers 80% of total average cost of care

Platinum Plan: $277.50/mo. Deductible $850 Out–of–pocket maximum $2,500 Plan covers 90% of total average cost of care


My current plan with my job is with Atena 80/60 Deductible $1500, cost is $45.10 every two weeks ($45.10 x 26 = $1172.60). The job covers 75% of the cost. I'm not too sure but I do believe the maximum out of pocket cost is I believe is $3500 (all depends if it is inside or outside network). With the current cost for me it's cheaper to get insurance through the job, plus deductible is a lot lower for the cost than the plans.

Remember, as I stated before these are the cheaper picks per the plans. The cheapest Gold Plan won't even cover ER trips or extra things that are covered with the current plan I have right now. If you want those covered ER trips then it could interest the Gold Plan cost by extra $20 per month.

The Platinum plans are excellent, but of course they cost an arm and a leg. They have just about all the things that I current get with my plan right now but at a much higher cost. The Bronze/Catastrophic plans are a joke.

I know my job will increase prices for insurance for the 2014 year. If going by last year it would be a very small increase.

So what do I think of all this? Well I'm glad the website finally worked for me for starters. But as I figured as much the plans cost too damn much for my current income level. I'm still not in favor with ACA and do still believe it's a terrible bill that should be appealed period. Noting is going to change my opinion on this matter.

But before I go let me say this: The Silver Plan is similar to the cheapest plan I could get with my job. Atena HCHP 70/50 for only $33 every two weeks. Your mileage may vary depending on your income, state, and if single and such.
User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Domino wrote:The job covers 75% of the cost.
So it's still ~$4400 a year vs ~$3300 a year for a better plan on the Florida exchange?

gtk
PSX Vita: Slightly more popular than Color TV-Game system. Almost as successful as the Wii U.
User avatar
Never_Scurred
Posts: 1800
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 1:09 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Never_Scurred »

Been trying to sign in to that goddamn obamacare website to find quotes and the shit is janky as fuck.
And using the live help ain't do squat, either. For real, anybody who had anything to do with this fuckery needs to have their kneecaps shattered on C-Span, real talk.
"It's a joke how the Xbox platform has caught shit for years for only having shooters, but now it's taken on an entirely different meaning."-somebody on NeoGAF
Watch me make Ketsui my bitch.
User avatar
Domino
Posts: 1346
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:35 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Domino »

BryanM wrote:
Domino wrote:The job covers 75% of the cost.
So it's still ~$4400 a year vs ~$3300 a year for a better plan on the Florida exchange?

gtk
$3300 plan doesn't have everything that the $4400 a year has. With my plan the ER trips doesn't cost extra and so does the doctors checkups for preventive care. Like most healthcare plans the money you pay comes out before it gets taxed. Hey, it slightly helps a bit from the tax man. :P

Now some will say have my job do "rebates" or get the insurance through the government. According to my job their Atena plans are beyond the requirements of ACA and thus will not change anything at this time. Now if they change some things I would be shocked (considering I work for a big bank).
User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Ah, TV. BREAKING NEWS: JOHN BOEHNER IS FUCKIN' CRAZY.

Politics~
Been trying to sign in to that goddamn obamacare website to find quotes and the shit is janky as fuck.
Some of that thar fine Canadian engineering.

It feels really weird to be able to say "Website not working? It's your own fault for not living in Kentucky while trying to use that thar Democrat-passed Republican healthcare exchange." US is freakin' crazy and weird man.
Domino wrote:Now if they change some things I would be shocked.
Considering there's a profit cap now, let us know if you get a rebate in 2015. Or if they just pocket the diff for themselves, whatevs. It's hard to imagine they were anywhere close to under the median profit rate.
PSX Vita: Slightly more popular than Color TV-Game system. Almost as successful as the Wii U.
User avatar
Domino
Posts: 1346
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:35 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Domino »

BryanM wrote:Considering there's a profit cap now, let us know if you get a rebate in 2015. Or if they just pocket the diff for themselves, whatevs. It's hard to imagine they were anywhere close to under the median profit rate.
For me this is more about which coverage gives me the most bang for my buck. So far my job is the one. :P
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Domino's mentioning the ER trips reminded me something that I heard from Art Caplan in a talk a couple years back (2010 or so) - whether the ACA works or not will ultimately be dependent on whether we constrain costs enough.

Part of that means not forcing people to use the ER for routine care (and forcing the ER to waste resources on such visits).

If costs are out of control, we don't have a knock-down argument against the ACA, but rather a signal that reform is not a dead issue after Obamacare.

Breaking Bad fans: There's an interesting (conservative) take on Walter White and Obamacare here. Just ignore the stuff about death panels - I think that actually in some cases the last guy and Art Caplan (and myself) agree - there are times when it makes no sense to have huge investments in people (because there will be no return from that investment - ~0% survival and no quality of life increase for treatment = not a good investment for anybody). That's still based on making an ethical choice about spending, not a "let's screw people out of health care" view. However, it seems like part of the idea behind Obamacare was "everybody can have healthcare, yay" without as much thought towards cases where we simply should not spend money. I could be wrong there, but if what I think is true, it's kind of ironic that what would've been smart process reform was derided and demonized as "death panels" while it wasn't even part of Obamacare to begin with.
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

"We lost"

I felt bad for Boehner there, for a second. He was dragged into a fight he didn't want by a minority of his caucus.

And then I realized that they've already managed to dramatically change the focus in Washington away from "doing good by the people" to "cutting government down to size," a process that's been underway for decades, and remains as poisonous as ever. Boehner did want this fight; you almost wonder if they seriously thought that the "mommy party" Democrats were never going to put their foot down.
User avatar
BulletMagnet
Posts: 14151
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am
Location: Wherever.
Contact:

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BulletMagnet »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Boehner did want this fight; you almost wonder if they seriously thought that the "mommy party" Democrats were never going to put their foot down.
Considering recent history I don't doubt that for a second. Heck, even as it stands we're all going through this again in a few months, by design, so they'll get yet another whack at it. Moreover, Boehner and the "reasonable" Republicans will go right along with the tea-tards just as willingly.
User avatar
BryanM
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Damn it all. Well, we'll get another shot at Unnecessary Depression in a few more months.

In the meantime, to celebrate the brave men and women who brought us here, let us remember Tea Party Jesus.
PSX Vita: Slightly more popular than Color TV-Game system. Almost as successful as the Wii U.
Post Reply